Originally Posted by reeskujo

Most of the cities here do the same...They ban or restrict the cross breeds as well and that again is another issue....Unless it is known who both of the parents are how can anyone be sure exactly what breeds are in a mixed breed dog without DNA testing?...A lot of dogs would be getting banned on assumptions made by their looks and that is certainly not fair...I think it's just another way for the various governmental systems to stick their noses in the peoples lives!

Very little DNA testing here in Australia.........You are a pit bull if you dont pass this test!!!!!

A dog is an American pit bull terrier where— (a)each body part specified in column 2 is graded in accordance with the assessment criteria specified in column 3 as having a grade of— (i)zero, if there is no compliance with the assessment criteria; or(ii)one, if there is part compliance with the assessment criteria; or(iii)two, if there is substantial compliance with the assessment criteria; or(iv)three, if there is full compliance with the assessment criteria; and (b)the total of all grades in accordance with paragraph (a) exceeds 45 out of a potential total of 66. Column 1 Item Column 2 Body part Column 3 Assessment criteria

1. Head The dog is medium in length (3:2).

2. Head shape The dog has a wedged shaped skull which is flat and widest at the ears with prominent cheeks free from wrinkles.

3. Muzzle The dog has a square, wide and deep muzzle.

4. Muzzle The dog has well pronounced jaws, displaying strength.

5. Upper teeth The dog’s upper teeth meet tightly over the lower teeth to create a

6. Ears The dog’s ears are set high on the head and are free from wrinkles.

7. Eyes The dog’s eyes are round to almond.

8. Eyes The dog’s eyes are set far apart, low down on the skull.

9. Nose The dog has wide open nostrils.

10. Neck The dog’s neck is muscular and slightly arched.

11. Neck The dog’s neck tapers from shoulder to head.

12. Neck The dog’s neck is free from looseness of skin.

13. Shoulders The dog’s shoulders are strong and muscular with wide sloping shoulder blades.

14. Loin The dog’s loins are short and strong.

15. Back The dog’s back is slightly sloping from withers to rump.

16. Back The dog’s back is slightly arched at the loins with the loins slightly tucked.

17. Chest The dog’s chest is deep, but not too broad, with well sprung ribs.

18. Tail The dog’s tail is short in comparison to the size of the dog, tapers to a fine point and is not carried over the back.

19. Legs The dog’s legs are medium to large, round boned and reasonably strong.

20. Feet The dog’s feet are of medium size.

21. Thighs The dog has well developed thigh muscles.

22. Coat The dog’s coat is short and stiff to touch


The Australian 22 point checklist, your dog fails, your dog is declaired PBT or part there of so therefore is dangerous. Depending in what council area you are as to whether complete ban or restriction applies.

The 22 point checklist, has sent many a family companion to its death, being used mostly in the Queensland State, however is slowly worming its way through the rest. Even if your dog is really a (example) lab cross greyhound, if it fails the physical test, carried out by trained professionals, (*note sarcasm*) it is declaired of PBT ancestory.

Try it on almost any medium to large cross breed dog you know, its likely that it fails. Hell try it on some of the common pure breed, they probably will fail to.

Its a longer video, but will give you an idea of the stupidity of 22 point checklist used here, look at the breeds that fail the tests......????

YouTube - 22 Point Checklist

YouTube - 22 Point Checklist

(if you look closely towards the end there happens to be a little shot of kato too )

[reeskujo]

Great video nattie...Thanks for sharing it...it just goes to show that without DNA testing you can't prove 100% what breeds are in a mixed breed just by looking at it and this is all the more reason why BSL is wrong and unfair!

Originally Posted by Team Pupsters!

Akita's: A common choice of pet in the UK (and the US I believe), but why anyone would want to keep an animal that bred specifically for fighting is beyond me.

Akitas were naver breed specifically for fighting. The recorded domestic Akita history begins as a campanion and guard dog for Japanese royalty and high society.

They then started to become the compainon and guard for common society, reportedly often left at home to protect young children whilst parents were working the fields. They also became companions for hunters, often working as a male and female team to hold at bay big game until the hunters arrived.

The Akita was used for hunting because of their ability to be responsive yet silent as they captured their target.

American soldiers, saw the Akitas hunting and watched their ability to tackle bears so many times the Akitas size, and thought, because of their fearless ferocity, determination, and their thick protective hair, that they would be good as a pit fighting dog.........They tried, unsucessfully to make the Akita a good pit dog......their nature whilst responsive, is aloof and standoffish, and the Akitas would not put up the fancy, blood thirsty show that these barbarians wanted, so they started cross breeding the Akita with other breeds, still not able to get out of them the ultimate fighting dog, so the Akita became preceeded in the pit by the Japanese Tosa Inu.

Although the Tosa has a longer history of fighting than the Akita, and is banned from import into many countries because of this history, they are still capable of being an outstanding companion to a family, if trained and treated as it should be.

Other uses for the Akita because of their versatility and inteligence has been, army and service dogs, search and rescue dogs, livestock watch and protection, and several used instead of labs as assitance dogs for the vision impaired.

So, whilst the Akita did spend some time in the pit, please do not accuse them as a breed bred specifically for fighting, as ree said their time in the pit was very short lived.

Originally Posted by Team Pupsters!

Just wondering which breeds (if any) do you think should be banned?

Before people get mad, I'm not just talking about breeds that are considered dangerous, I'm also talking about breeds which are a genetic disaster too. For example:

British Bull Dogs: Absolutely gorgeous dogs, but due to years of inbreeding, they suffer with so many physical problems and are in so much pain a lot of the time, that I don't think it's fair to them. That's why they tend not to live very long.

Shar Pei's: Pretty much the same as above. Shar Pei fever is incurable and it's an unpleasant demise for the dog. Approx 1 in 5 Shar Pei's are diagnosed with the condition, and tend to develop it when they are pups.

And here's a couple that I personally think should be banned because of their 'aggression'

American Pit Bulls: I know people keep them as pets in some parts of the world. But I think people in the UK understand why they are banned in this country, and I think it should stay that way.

Akita's: A common choice of pet in the UK (and the US I believe), but why anyone would want to keep an animal that bred specifically for fighting is beyond me. This one, I have to say is personal to me, because 14 years ago, I had a dog that was attacked by an akita without any provocation whatsoever. He survived (don't know how), but to this day I still get really upset over it. I do know someone who has an akita, and she has spent a lot of time and money taking her for special training. By her own admission, akita's are not her choice of breed, and she doesn't believe they should be kept as pets either. But in fairness to the owner, she more or less had the dog 'dumped' on her. Not many people over here want to rehome akita's, and she couldn't face having a healthy pup put to sleep when it had done nothing wrong.

So, over to you. What do you think????

Ban the American pit bull terrier? Oh boy, here we go again. In the UK, the thing that made people ban APBTs wasn't an APBT. It was a standford bull terrier that killed that five year old girl, BUT there not ban! When the news states that it was a pit bull that killed the girl, they could be talking about ANY breed that looks similar to the American pit bull terrier. Standfford bull terrier, american stanfford terrier, bull terrier and american bulldogs are stated under the term ''pit bull.'' Pit bull is not a breed. When you hear the news saying ''pit bull attacks owner'' it can be any of those breeds. People do not realize that.

Second, maybe YOU should research the breed before agreeing that they should be ban! APBTs were bred to dog fight but was never bred to be human aggressive. In fact, there probably the only breed that was bred against it. You see, people had to put their hands between fighting APBTs and any dog that showed aggression to the handler was culled. When the APBT was not fighting, it was a family dog. In fact, they were the number one family dog in america in 1900s. You could see APBTs on alot of advertisements back then because they were so gentle and loving. They represented America during world war 1. A pit bull was played in the little rascals as Petey. It was until the APBT was considered cool, in the 1970s, when people started getting these dogs for the wrong reason. The attacks started to rise and the pit bull was no longer america's dog. The APBT was not the only dog in america's history that was considered bad. First it was the german shepards, then the doberman pinscher, than the rotti, then finally the APBT. Now there are many bad apples in the breed but don't think that there all bad. I've never met a pit bull that wasn't loving. When I was little, I stuck my hand in a fence with a pit bull in it and it licked my hands.

If you get a well bred APBT, YOU GOT ONE OF THE MOST HUMAN SAFE DOGS IN THE WORLD. The APBT is great with kids because they can tolerant kids pulling their ears, but their not so good with other dogs. A responsible APBT owner knows that APBTs can be dog aggressive. They should never ever let their dog roam. In fact, most terrier breeds and bull dog breeds are dog aggressive. Should we ban all of them. All dogs can be dog aggressive, even golden retriever and labs. In fact, I've known many people who's dog was attacked by them. Many people love APBTs.

Don't take their number one breed away.:???:

I don't support banning breeds for any reason. If English Bulldogs are such poor physical specimens, then perhaps responsible breeders should focus on relieving some of their problems by expanding their breeding programs. Perhaps it is time to reexamine the breed standards of some dogs to allow for genetic expansion. Some people would like to ban breeds like APBT, AST, ST, Akita and others because they are "vicious." This is ridiculous! I don't know how many times it needs to be said before people understand, but owners have the biggest impact on a dog's behavior! The largest problems are people getting dogs after doing little to no research on the breed's needs or those who neglect/abuse their dogs. Think before you buy!!!

[Yogi]

the fact is that majority of attacks attributed to PBT's in the US are bogus and come down to one important fact. Simply put the majority of people in this country as well as the UK could not identify specifically a PBT from a short legged Boxer if their lives depended on it.
Here is a test and I can assure you that the majority of you will not get correct now can you take it and be honest?
Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull
Of all the PBT's I have met and there have been a great deal, only one comes to mind that was not great with people. He would not attack unless someone confronted him which means if you ignored him he showed no interest.
Ignorance is common place in all countries through out the world which is why these issues come up. Mankind in itself is ignorant enough to not believe he is capable of it. This in itself only proves the point. The fact is in the US, more dog bites are attributed to the Cocker Spaniel than any breed. Go figure, obviously most who insist on banning haven't, or they would call for a ban on this breed also. There is no breed of dog like no breed of mankind where in there is a perfect socialized specimen. There is always going to be a bad apple and to judge all based on a few is nothing less than discrimination at it's worst. Being that humans are actually nothing more than a species of animal also, when is the ban going into effect on us. We do more killing, maiming and overall destruction than any other species of animal on the planet.....

Originally Posted by Yogi

the fact is that majority of attacks attributed to PBT's in the US are bogus and come down to one important fact. Simply put the majority of people in this country as well as the UK could not identify specifically a PBT from a short legged Boxer if their lives depended on it.
Here is a test and I can assure you that the majority of you will not get correct now can you take it and be honest?
Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull
Of all the PBT's I have met and there have been a great deal, only one comes to mind that was not great with people. He would not attack unless someone confronted him which means if you ignored him he showed no interest.
Ignorance is common place in all countries through out the world which is why these issues come up. Mankind in itself is ignorant enough to not believe he is capable of it. This in itself only proves the point. The fact is in the US, more dog bites are attributed to the Cocker Spaniel than any breed. Go figure, obviously most who insist on banning haven't, or they would call for a ban on this breed also. There is no breed of dog like no breed of mankind where in there is a perfect socialized specimen. There is always going to be a bad apple and to judge all based on a few is nothing less than discrimination at it's worst. Being that humans are actually nothing more than a species of animal also, when is the ban going into effect on us. We do more killing, maiming and overall destruction than any other species of animal on the planet.....

That one is a really good example of the mis judgement that some can make in idetifying The PBT, this being against just other recognised breeds of dogs too, not including the mass of mixes out there, that may have some similar features, build and body size and mass. Almost all of my friends who do have a mix, it is a staffy mix with another medium size dog, very often they too get mistaken by PBT out in the street, but if you really knew what they looked like, they are a far cry from true appearance.

By the way, I did get it first go, but i was tossing up on 3 diffrent pictures, so could have just as easily got it wrong.

I agree that NO dog breed should be banned. . . because everyone has his or her own opinions. . . and you cannot make everyone happy. . . so don't take out one breed just because some dogs are not properly trained. . .

Banning certain dog breeds is plain bs. You are attacking the symptom instead of the problem, witch is irresponsible owners. Ban these people from owning dogs instead.

Great video Nattie and I loved the song too!

[Yogi]

this is a story a friend of mine sent me. Just goes to prove it is not the dog but the owner....
This is a true story.
Here is a story I am going to tell which I read in this months issue of Dog
Fancy magazine.. I will warn you it is a tear jerker, but deserves to be told..

Tahoe was a therapy dog and often paid visits to a certain little boy in a
children's hospital who was fighting leukemia. Tahoe usually visited on certain
days of the week. One morning the little boy asked his nurse if he could see
Tahoe that day. She told him it wasn't the day for his regular visit. The little
boy said "I know, but I really want to see him today. Please call and ask if he
can come see me." The nurse called the owner and asked if she was busy. Said for
some reason Tommy really wanted to see Tahoe today. The owner agreed and her and
Tahoe went to see Tommy. Once there they walked into the room. Tahoe stopped and
looked at Tommy who had tears in his eyes. Immediately Tahoe climbed up on the bed and gently laid down beside Tommy. Tommy wrapped his arms
around Tahoe and hugged him as tightly as he weakened state could. Tahoe laid
his head across Tommy's neck. A few moments later Tommy passed away with Tahoe
in his arms. Tahoe was a pit bull terrier. When they left the
hospital the owner with tears in her eyes and Tahoe with his tail down and
looking very sad. A lady across the lot yelled.. "GET THAT MONSTER OUT OF HERE,
THERE ARE KIDS HERE." The owner simply stopped, turned around and looked at the
lady with tears in her eyes and said quietly. " I know, that is why we are here.
_________________

Man, that IS sad! Great story though, to prove the breed can be a god send to some!

the akita seems to be getting nailed here!
from what ive read they are dodgy with children, arent most!
children should not be left unsupervised with dogs
ive also read ,been told their excellent with children.
they will attack adults also.they dislike other dogs.
attacking people is a no no.a lot of poorly trained dogs are biters,is this poor breeding?
id say this percentage is very low.
dislike of other dogs,socalising is important and should defuse this.
a good owner will want its dog to be able to fit into society,which brings me to banning certain breeds.
the working/guard breeds ,dogs bred to fight.people who want these breeds should be vetted to see if they are suitable to have these breeds.
there is nothing wrong to want one of these breeds as long as you are a responsible owner with good facilities for them.

one more thing ,i think natt 1976 said the tosa was around longer than the akita,
i think this is wrong,the tosa was eventually established with many breeds including the akita

the akita seems to be getting nailed here!
from what ive read they are dodgy with children, arent most!
children should not be left unsupervised with dogs
ive also read ,been told their excellent with children.
they will attack adults also.they dislike other dogs.
attacking people is a no no.a lot of poorly trained dogs are biters,is this poor breeding?
id say this percentage is very low.
dislike of other dogs,socalising is important and should defuse this.
a good owner will want its dog to be able to fit into society,which brings me to banning certain breeds.
the working/guard breeds ,dogs bred to fight.people who want these breeds should be vetted to see if they are suitable to have these breeds.
there is nothing wrong to want one of these breeds as long as you are a responsible owner with good facilities for them.

one more thing ,i think natt 1976 said the tosa was around longer than the akita,
i think this is wrong,the tosa was eventually established with many breeds including the akita

You are right, children should not be left alone with any dog, they can be a danger to each other.

As far as an Akita goes with kids, we have found that they are fantastic with the children that are part of their pack, more outstandingly so than any other breed, I think this is where some Akita owners may become unfolded. Never ever be decieved just because they are good with their own children, does not mean they are going to be tolerant of children they dont know. We are incredibly watchfull with Kato and strange kids, he is used to Taylah, her movements and because she is in his fold, protective to boot, but we see his waryness to interact with other kids, so we do not force the issue at all, and we do not allow people to send their kids over to him for this reason. (which can be hard because they see him with a child and assume because of this that he is OK with all kids.)

Dont get me wrong, if a child approaches him calmly and sensibly he is not a problem, but if they are scared, too fast, to sharp in their movement we watch him back away............if he does, we pull him and the child in question right out of the situation immediately, I am not prepared to test his reaction if he is showing reluctance in the introduction.

Because of this complexity to their nature, any Akita owner should NOT assume anything with them, they have almost a human decisiveness about what or who they like or dont like, but of course react in the dog way.

In saying all that I would not necissarily say poor breeding as opposed to lack of understanding on the owners part (not in 100 percent of the cases however) the lack of understanding in the fact that what the dog might be like at home does not indicate what it may be like outside the home, or how the dog may react in one situation may not mimick again in a similar situation. And not understanding the extensive body language that the Akita has, from ear to tail and everything inbetween, it all indicates how your dog is feeling and weather he feels threatened or not.

As far as our boy with other dogs goes, it can vary dramatically, he gets on well with even tempered dogs, ones that are not too over the top and ones that are not too submissive and aloof, anything else can be a hit and miss, we dont know until tried.

We refuse to use off lead areas or go to areas known for other dogs to be off lead because of this unkown.
We have incredibally secure fences and locked gates because of this unknown.
We make sure we have complete and full control of our dog because of this unknown.

Until having an Akita in my life, i never fully understood how complex a dog can be, the Akita nature is very involved, and very deep, we understand that there are grey areas it is not just black and white with him, so we must always be on the ball, always be on the lookout for signs to detirmin what our reaction must be.

Until it is understood that owning an Akita (and some other breeds that have this same complex nature) is not just having a dog to take for walks and throw a ball, there will be continueing problems arise.

The akita seems to need alot of intense training, socialisation, and owners that are willing to learn and grow with the dog and put in the hard work that is required and owners that are willing to see the negative potential as well as the great rewards, to be armed with the could bes or maybes, and train against these posibilites or remove from situations as needed rather than waiting for it to happen.

I will honestly admit that it has been a great challenge having an Akita in the home, but the rewards for the work we have put in have far outweighed anything else, and could not have any other breed in our lives, the hard work, if willing to put it in comes back for the good 100 fold, because we have seen it this way, I could understand if you get it wrong how it could come back in the bad way 100 fold too.

[reeskujo]

nattie couldn't be more right about what she said about the Akita breed...No, they are not for first time owners...No,they are not for someone who doesn't have a strong personality or someone who wants a laid back,easy to handle breed...I can say this though,for those people like nattie and I who are equipped to deal with their strong,stubborn personalities and who are willing to put in all the time,love,energy and training they require they are one of the most loyal,loving,protective breeds you can ever own...I, like nattie will always have one in my home and will probably own no other breed other then the Husky I rescued...As with all breeds they should be thoroughly researched before being brought into a home and should not be an owners first breed..If their going into a home with children they should be brought in as a puppy so they can grow with the child....One thing I know for sure they will go to any length to protect a child that's part of their pack just as us parents would!...For me and I'm sure nattie as well there is no other breed I'd rather own!

Banning Breeds is ridiculous! Just because one person has a bad experience doesn't mean the entire breed is horrible. As stated several times before it is the owner not the breed. Also, even if a breed was purely breed for fighting why should it, the dog, be punished because of human stupidity??

Also what do you suggest is done with all the now 'banned' breeds? Should they be confiscated and killed??? How would that be regulated? It can't, and even if it could that just opens up doors to illegal breeding and underground selling of breeds that should go to educated and responsible owners. Wouldn't that just make the problem worse by AKC and other reputable companies not being able to regulate breeding and selling so that they can minimize aggressive traits and educate people about each breed? again -

I think that any one who condones breed banning needs some education about "Dangerous" breeds, I'm sure that you will find they can be, and usually are, regarded as the best thing to happen to a family. You not only get a lovable pillow at night and goofy play-mate but a strong and intelligent part of the family that will protect and warn you if anything harmful should be coming your way. It is up to you to train your dog to recognize threats and friendlies.

As far as banning a breed because of health issues, well again how should that be regulated? I don't think that a dog should be kept if it is in pain, but I think that it is the owner or breeders responsibility to identify the problem and relieve there friend of the pain, the best way they can. And if that means not breeding two dogs together then by all means they shouldn't stop breeding those dogs.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by jackryper

People that post pictures of dogs next to kids to show that breed of dog is not vicious are worse than Hitler. Why use kids to defend your breed. You risk your kids in order to give propaganda for your breed. That is very sick.

Talking of Akitas. Only three days ago there was a fight between an akita and a pug in the local park. The pug had a hold of the Akita's nose and would not let go despite getting swung all over the place. The lady and gentleman managed after about two minutes to get the pug off. Unfortunately the Akita took this as a prime opportunity to attack the pug. It started to bite the pug's eye. The pug was yelping in pain. I then ran over and pinned the akita down while punching it multiple times in the head UFC style! (in order to break its hold over the pugs eye, as everybody else including the pug was just screaming, including the Akita's male owner)

The akita let go and wondered away looking depressed. I gather from this a few things. American akitas are not fighting dogs (maybe the Japanese ones are). For example there is no way an American pit bull would be losing a fight against a pug. So if they were fighting dogs they were pretty poor ones. Also a pit bull would of attacked me in rage but the Akita was VERY easy to deal with. The pug was surprisingly tough considering its tiny size. The Akita was not nearly as tough as it looks. It looked tough but wasn't.

Oh and by the way the Akita during the fight bit its own owners fingers cause the idiot tried to open its mouth with his fingers.

And lastly but least I must punch hard being an ex boxer so don't argue with me! Ex boxer 1 Akita 0
Pug 1 Akita 1:mrgreen:

hmmm pugs are tough:???:

oh yeah, you are the idiot who had his post on another sight removed due to content like this one. Ex Boxer??? maybe punch drunk!. "I must punch hard being an ex boxer so don't argue with me!". All the more reason to argue with you. Any idiot can throw a punch but one who declares they are a boxer and tells people not to argue with them is one who has lost before he ever enters the ring. I am not an ex boxer but have taken apart many in my time in the line of work I did for years. Quit trying to justify what you did by thinking because you were once a boxer gives you the right to not have anyone tell you what you really are now! Also, using references to Hitler and trying to compare American dogs with any other for the purpose of substantiating which ones are tougher is totally lame.
The other site removed his posts due to content trying to provoke PBTs and dog fighting issues where he wanted to poll people as to which breeds are tougher.

Well jackryper, you certainly know how to send an otherwise healthy, politely debated thread into the gas chamber and to its doom.........hmmmmm (need i comment further)

I fail to see how showing photos of children with their canine companions as any sort of propaganda or any sort of cliche. Merely an example of the fact that any dog regardless of its breed is capable of being a fantastic companion to a whole family including the children in the home if brought up to do so.

I feel no need to defend the Akita, we have one in our home as it is an appropriate natured dog for our family situation. This is our right, as it is any other family of a free society. BSL merely removes further right of free decision.

Education is the key to dogs representing the canine community in good light, not breed, not size. People need to learn that as much as we love our pets, a dog is a dog, and will react to situations as such, as a dog. Any breed is capable of being an outstanding companion, if the owners are equiped, educated and prepared for the responsibility of apporpriate training, supervison, and care required for the animal.