Originally Posted by Yogi

sorry but you are mistaken.

Yogi, I don't know the breed, so I will take you at your word that they aren't born with a vicious temper. I would say then if a person adopts a Pit Bull, or gets it from a previous owner, it should NOT be around children, EVER. Reason is obvious: no one really knows for sure what's in that particular dog's background-unless the dog came from a close friend or relative you know really, really, well who raised it as a pup. In that situation, even without children, a pet owner shouldn't want a Pit around HIMSELF. Because, this I know, you cannot eradicate a vicious nature. And if you're alone with the dog, and that baby turns...Whew Boy! You better hope that God is with you...Because if He's not and you survive, your plastic/reconstructive surgery bills WILL be up in the 6 figure range.

About the other vicious dogs you reference, I can't agree. Sure, another dog can do the same amount of damage to a human being given the same circumstances. However, NO dog can outfight a Pit Bull. If I'm mistaken, tell me which dog can go up against a Pit and win?

Yogi, I don't know the breed, so I will take you at your word that they aren't born with a vicious temper. I would say then if a person adopts a Pit Bull, or gets it from a previous owner, it should NOT be around children, EVER. Reason is obvious: no one really knows for sure what's in that particular dog's background-unless the dog came from a close friend or relative you know really, really, well who raised it as a pup.

Any dog who is gotten as a rescue should be watched around children and other animals, until their temperment is known. Its not the breed, its how they were treated and raised from the begining, that determins how a dog is going to react in any given situation. A yorkie can be just as mean as a pit bull if its been raised wrong from the begining. And by the same token a pit bull can be just as gentle as a yorkie, provided its been raised properly to start with. Its not the breed, its how its been raised! Granted some breeds are more prone to agression than others, but then again some people are more likely to be agressive than others as well. Its all in the upbringing and socilazitation, not the breed.

Aggressive breeds of dogs. I like the cuddly and tiny breeds.

Originally Posted by Jakesmom

A yorkie can be just as mean as a pit bull if its been raised wrong from the begining. And by the same token a pit bull can be just as gentle as a yorkie, provided its been raised properly to start with. Its not the breed, its how its been raised!

Well, yeah, Moms. But, which breed would you rather not get ahold of you if he's mean. The Yorkie? or the Pit?...

With the Yorkie, you'll get a little nip on your heel.

With the Pit, your ass is his!

Pits make great guard dogs, but personally, I just couldn't trust them around my kids. For me, it's not just the Pit, that goes for any dog that is deemed to have aggressive tendencies, that would include German Shepheards and Dobermans. Yes, I do understand about man teaching aggression, but I think it's something in there nature that makes them more susceptible to turning, shall I say, "ugly". In contrast, I wouldn't worry about a Lab or a Golden Retriever around my kids.

Just my thoughts...

I had a foster pit for 10 months, she was a very sweet dog (she was dog aggressice) but great with people, fine with kids. Now, as a groomer for insurance reasons I do not groom pitbulls, rotties, AM.staffs, Presa Canarios or Cane Corsos. But I also know that they are not all bad... I have however seen a very kind, professionaly trained pitbull owned by a co-worker snap and go after a woman we worked with completely unprevoked.
Now before you all say I am anti-pitbull let me also remind you that about 10 years ago a 9 year old girl was brutily mauled by a Labrador Retriever! ANY dog can attack not just pitts.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by wouldbedogowner

Yogi, I don't know the breed, so I will take you at your word that they aren't born with a vicious temper. I would say then if a person adopts a Pit Bull, or gets it from a previous owner, it should NOT be around children, EVER. Reason is obvious: no one really knows for sure what's in that particular dog's background-unless the dog came from a close friend or relative you know really, really, well who raised it as a pup. In that situation, even without children, a pet owner shouldn't want a Pit around HIMSELF. Because, this I know, you cannot eradicate a vicious nature. And if you're alone with the dog, and that baby turns...Whew Boy! You better hope that God is with you...Because if He's not and you survive, your plastic/reconstructive surgery bills WILL be up in the 6 figure range.

About the other vicious dogs you reference, I can't agree. Sure, another dog can do the same amount of damage to a human being given the same circumstances. However, NO dog can outfight a Pit Bull. If I'm mistaken, tell me which dog can go up against a Pit and win?

remember when I said go back to the quiz and check out some of the other dogs. If you had you would see a couple off the top that can in fact "outfight" a pit bull. Keep in mind the Pit Bull was not created as a dog fighting breed but for working Bulls. In England, they decided to use it as sport some years later. It was not bred for this purpose therefore is not predisposed to this nature as so many think. This is bore out by looking at the Pit Bulls Michael Vick had. They no longer are as you put it "viscious". They are now running and playing with their handlers and in fact, when the handlers first came in contact with them not one dog was aggressive but in fact shy. The trainers have worked to socialize the dogs which is what they had no reality of before.
As I stated, Cane Corso is nearly 3 times the size of an average APBT and in fact can "outfight" an APBT.
Here is a history that may better explain the change in the "Pit Bull" over the centuries so that you may actually learn about the breed istead of just believe everyday bs that is thrown around with regards to them.
As one who has been bit many times in my lifetime dealing with dogs Nearly loosing an ear to a GSD, which I hold no ill feeling and have owned them since) I have seen the results of many dog bites by several breeds and find no real facts that constitute the Pit is any more dangerous when attacking than a Cane Corso. Many breeds bite and hold, hell even Terriers and that was what they were bred to do in fact they are the only breed bred for the sole purpose of killing small animals.
Pit Bull Breed History -- Pitbull
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup

As far as Micheal Vick's dogs, they may be seemingly far less agressive now, but if you had a baby or a small child, would you trust Micheal Vicks' dogs around it? What those dogs learned from Micheal Vick is now engrained in their canine psych. Not saying they should be put to sleep, although that is debatable. However, they should never, ever be around children. You, nor anyone else, cannot guarantee that the viciousness that they have learned will not ever surface. I'm willing to bet that when they are challenged or pushed, it will come out. And baby, when it does, it will be far from pleasant...

That said, I concede that it was man who probably created the killer behavior in this breed. What else is new, right? There are plenty of sick, weak, insecure men that need an aggressive being in their camp. About the Cane Corso, the ones you have illustrated look like Satan incarnate, that's a fact. However, I've noticed the musculature on the Cane and compared it to the Pit. The Pit looks much more solid in the chest. To me, that equates to stamina as well as strength. The physique on the Pit also looks more streamlined, as if it would allow the animal to move quicker and more efficiently in a fight. You've pointed out the Canes are bigger, but does size really matter? It's not really the size in the dog, but rather the fight. Hehehe.

I'm not disputing your knowlege, just throwing out my own thoughts.

[Yogi]

The Cane Corso's ability and strength when compounded with over 110lbs which in most cases can be even larger (thus 2 to 3 times larger than a APBT) and having the physical strength to match it size, the chest will not matter. It is actually twice as strong as the APBT.
The Italiano Mastiff is the original bred Pit Bull. Created by the Romans as a guard dog and a dog of war. During off times was used by Roman farmers to protect their herds and farms. Over centuries it was used in ancient times for dog fighting before the APBT was used and that is attributed to the English which banned the practice in 1895. The APBT ancestory is the Cane Corso and are directly linked. As this breed was involved with fighting and with guard oriented duties before the APBT how can you assume that it is not capable of the same thing then take into consideration its much larger size and overall strength it then becomes even more of a threat as its bite is just as strong but now you have a dog standing 27 or so inches and weighing in at 110 to 120lbs as opposed to a dog standing 19 inches and weighing in at 60lbs. Common sense cannot elude anyone when reality simply points to the fact that the larger of the breeds has more to take a human physically off their feet thus creating a more dangerous situation.
As for me, like I said previously. I have been around many APBT's and have yet to meet one that is vicious and would have no problems if my sons were younger, letting them near them. The mistake here is that you have never met one and are basing all you know of the breed on media information that is in fact speculative at best. Since even you proved you could not tell a APBT even when given a test. The Bull terrier was not bred to fight dogs or for that matter even kill but was bred to control Bulls and was very good at what it did. It was not bred to attack people and like any other breed, it does not unless not properly socialized but for that matter the people who had the infant mauled to death by the family Pomeranian probably did not expect that either. Any breed can and will bite and it can kill. The fault lies on the owner not the breed. Again, they are not predisposed to attacking and mauling people. But until closed minds are replaced with actual experience the adage of killing what we do not know and fear will always prevail. This just goes to prove that the only species of animal that believes we are the smartest are ourselves.
By no means am I endorsing this breed as one you may want to consider only pointing out that in fact, you really know nothing of this breed but you are quick to simply put blame for something that you really have no knowledge. For someone taking so much effort to learn of dogs that you may want to have in your condo, I am surprised that you have not also taken the time to learn the facts of this breed instead of just relying on what others relay or read in the press. A real dog person never relies on second hand information but actually physically looks at a dog even if it is a hundred before making a determination as to whether it is the right breed for them and in turn actually learns something instead of just buying into hear say. The fact is like many other breeds the APBT does require an experienced dog person and would not be a first time dog for anyone but this holds true for nearly all the terrier family of dogs. They are rambunctious, energetic, independent, extremely playful and prone to be overprotective. A dominant owner is required but unfortunately many breeders fail in this department when selling to just anyone. So, who do you blame now? Maybe the owner or do we look at the breeder? As a long time former breeder, only select few ever received dogs from me. Those were the ones who I felt after long interviews understood the breed and who's homes were set up for my breed. In my case, never an apt or condo. That is unless I was breeding Greyhounds, they actually make great apt dogs. No, they are not high energy quite the contrary they are in fact couch potatoes. Needing only a walk a couple times a day.

Yogi, good points. I wasn't aware nor did I take into account that the Cane Corso was 2-3 times bigger or stronger than the Pit. It's a descent of the Cane Corso, that I did expect. Just remember, the Cane and the Pit are related...

My question to you was would you leave your children around Mike Vick's Pit Bulls? I already know you feel comfortable about leaving them around Pit Bulls in general. I'm guessing your answer would be NO. My point in that regards was once a vicious dog, always a vicious dog. The tendency,while being controlled and and while learning new behaviors, can never be erased.

And yes my statements/ideas about the breed that are misconceptions come from the media, just like everyone else's I suppose.

About the shih tzu's they are couch potatoes as well, hence my interest.

I was also consideing an American Hairless Terrier, since you breed terriers, you would know they are the same dog as the Rat Terrier only without hair. Supposedly reported to be the best dog for allergy sufferers. I had read that they were energetic, but had also read they were good for apartments. According to what you posted above, is that not true then?

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by wouldbedogowner

Yogi, good points. I wasn't aware nor did I take into account that the Cane Corso was 2-3 times bigger or stronger than the Pit. It's a descent of the Cane Corso, that I did expect. Just remember, the Cane and the Pit are related...

My question to you was would you leave your children around Mike Vick's Pit Bulls? I already know you feel comfortable about leaving them around Pit Bulls in general. I'm guessing your answer would be NO. My point in that regards was once a vicious dog, always a vicious dog. The tendency,while being controlled and and while learning new behaviors, can never be erased.

And yes my statements/ideas about the breed that are misconceptions come from the media, just like everyone else's I suppose.

About the shih tzu's they are couch potatoes as well, hence my interest.

I was also consideing an American Hairless Terrier, since you breed terriers, you would know they are the same dog as the Rat Terrier only without hair. Supposedly reported to be the best dog for allergy sufferers. I had read that they were energetic, but had also read they were good for apartments. According to what you posted above, is that not true then?

just to remind you, with regards to Michael Vicks dogs, the handlers noted from the beginning that the dogs were in fact not vicious at all but in truth were frightened and shy which is a sign of non socializing. This means simply that the dog will not attack a human of any size but will do all it can to avoid humans as they are fearful of them. At the same time when these dogs were put in a position head to head they immediately went to attacking one another. Since the handling has been completed and the dogs have been socialized it was noted in one article that the dogs are now being adopted out with no ill issues when it comes to people. Would I have a problem if my kids were young, NO. Socializing is the key with regards to all breeds as to whether you have a properly tempered dog or one that is not. In my breed, Miniature Pinschers are perceived as cute little dogs which is the eyes playing tricks on the mind. People negate the size and in turn commence assuming. This is a large fault that unfortunately only humans possess and in turn lead to getting something they did not bargain for. Over handling of this breed in many cases results in a dog prone to biting as it is the only defense the breed has and therefore turns to it. Understanding not just the breed but its classification ie: terrier, would eliminate much of the confusion people have when it comes to getting a dog.
The American Rat Terrier is comprised of similar breed stock as the Miniature Pinscher. Meaning that the goal was to achieve the best possible ratter with what they had to work with. In the case of the "Rat Terrier" it was derived from crossing a smooth coated Fox terrier with A Manchester Terrier. Once imported into the US as farmers here had no real ratter, they turned again to the smooth coated Fox Terrier but added the Beagle and for speed the Whippet. In the Miniature Pinscher, the Italian Greyhound was added for the same purpose. It has been reported that many breeders starting approx 70 years ago actually included the Miniature Pinscher in their breed stock which would not surprise me but nothing has ever been documented to substantiate. In either case, you are still getting a terrier, therefore high energy prone to high prey drive. As noted before, the Terrier is the ONLY breed of dog created for the sole purpose of killing other animals. To expect anything less is mute. Which is why I am constantly dumbfounded at people asking why their JRT or Min Pin is always chasing and killing squirrels or rabbits etc. What part of reading and researching before buying did they not understand. Americans in general are prone to just buying because it is the fad or it is cute and end up getting themselves in a mess. This is the common end result when people buy terriers. Assumptions that it is a small dog therefore easier to handle is a sign of total ignorance. This also holds true with mortgage companies that hold in ownership for rent, apts and condos. They have no intelligence when it comes to dog breeds and make the assumption 20lbs or under (this is the common out here) when determining if a tenant can have a dog not realizing most of these are in the terrier family and can and generally are very destructive dogs. Instead of looking into the breeds themselves and finding that dogs like the Greyhound are greatly suited for apartments. What difference does it make in the long run if the dog takes up 4 times the floor space so long as it does so without tearing up the carpet or your furniture. What is needed is a complete understanding of the breed so in turn you can be aware before hand if the dog is going to be a handful requiring a lot of exercise to appease it therefore wearing it out so it does not go postal on the condo or a breed that in fact can suffice on being walked twice a day for 20 minutes and when you are not at home is sound asleep and could care less who comes calling when you are not there. If people read up on dogs like they should when purchasing a car or for that matter leasing a condo or apt because the of the cost, location, space etc. the majority of people would never get a dog or would have a totally different breed than the one they just grabbed because it fit in their purse or on their arm or for god knows what other ignorant reason. A dog is a dog, like people they all have their quirks and these are the little things that are the unexpected but if you get the RIGHT one as far as breed goes and in all it lives up to the basic understanding as you thought it would, then the little quirk is just that a little quirk and is of no consequence in the final analysis. The ultimate goal is this animal is your responsibility for its lifetime. It is not thrown away when things go bad or go wrong but is worked with, cared for and nurtured because the ultimate reward is something that nearly every one desires but few ever really receive and that is unconditional love. With that being said, what exactly is your reason for wanting a dog again?
For me it is simple, I have no faith in people and have never given anyone reason to believe otherwise. Those that know me will attest to this. With dogs and cats I find solace knowing that someone at one point did something right and the unconditional love that is received from them can and in my case is immense. No matter what mood I may be in, tails continue to wag or in most cases, nubs continue to wag. Cats continue to purr and for me that is all I need to make me realize things are not that bad. Even if it means cleaning a litter box or excusing a dog for messing on the carpet. Because when all is said and done, these creatures provide something to me that most only dream of but never quite get when it comes to people and that is the unconditional love.