[Rhiannon840]

HELP~!

i suspect our adopted American Bulldog has N.C.L or a similar neurological storage disease. any one had any experience with this often misdiagnosed disorder...?

[CorkyMax]

Never heard of it so I looked it up on the web. You prob. have done your own research but just in case: What is NCL? and if you put dogs NCL in your browser--you will get many more sites to check out.

Where did you adopt your dog from? I hope not a backyard breeder. Of course if instead you rescued this dog---you prob. wouldn't know the background either. It sounds like an ethical breeder would have checked for this before having pups to avoid this problem. According to this site mentioned above--That breed of dog is one of the most common breeds that this can happen to.

How old is your dog? Does it have all the symptoms mentioned in the site?

If you want to know if your dog has this--There is a way to find out. See the 1st paragraph in this site: http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net...e/sympAMBD.pdf

[Rhiannon840]

thanks for the reply so quickly!

Yeah mate, i could mention plenty of symptoms beginning right from a pup. You see, my bro in-law actually owned the dog. Long story short, the bro and dog moved in with us when dog about 6mths old. We looked after it with more love that the brother and so ended up adopting it. (kicked out the brother and after a while, he returned his dog to us as he realised he could not look after it properly)
Anyhoo....the dog is now nearly 2 yrs. Behavioural problems as pup but was just thought of as clumsy/runt of litter. Easily aggitated/nervous. First noticed Head Seizures at around 1 yr old. (still continuing- had one last night) Didnt really bother him to begin with. noticed his eye sight and other senses were as good as they should be when he was nearly fully grown. Abnormally wide stance on rear legs noticed same time. Also the symptoms developed soon after: Snapping at flies that were not there, Barking at nothing, staring with either a really Blank or distant stare OR had an almost 'wild' look in his eye which would make me feel uncormfortable like he was ready to hunt or something. also, He has always been VERY vocal and moan alot (now i see are cos of seizures.

Most worrying symptom though is that he stopped using the use of hind legs. Wont even jump/step up to a really low-lying seat- or even car floor to go for a drive.i accidentally put pressure on back legs the other day he snapped at me! Never would normally bite us as he is still such a harmless happy juvenille. Did it to Husband as well when he tried to lift him up. Will not longer sit normally (one leg is tucked off to the side and he often 'shufftles' if he needs to get something closer enough to him) he also looks more aware of problems and stressing HIMSELF out. I have noticed that stress magnifies his symptoms.
He is getting unfamiliar with common objects, people, rooms etc.... and very 'touchy'

Also he has recently been clenching his jaw and pushing his head up against me (he LOVES head massages)

His muscles appear fine and normal, but his shoulder blades are becoming more pronounced.....There are more unusual characterists but wont get into them....

I suspect the vet will not no much about this genetic disease as i live in a small country town and honestly, it seems like only Americans are familiar with this disorder (although we do have a NCL head-researcher in Melbourne who is dealing with these genetics and testing. (im in WA)


I am really hoping that it only ends up being hip displascia, with epilepsy and behavoural problems cos then at least it is treatable.

What really pisses me off is how a pet shop can legally sell pets that have 'so called breeders' have sold to them without any disease/DNA testing and clearance. i have a feeling that the breeders knew about this problem so they just got rid of the pups to a pet shop cos they knew they couldnt sell them with papers. The Brother-in-law said the pet shop said they were pure bred but his dog was the runt of the litter and had no papers.......GGGRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!


Thanks for listening (huge weight of my shoulders just talking to someone!) If anything good can come of this, i hope its for the people who read this to: Become more aware of breeding issues in general
AND To also recognise neurological Storage Disease symptoms early enough to not unknowingly pass on the gene to the next set of Pups.

Anyones experience would be greatly appreciated also...


Thank you CorkyMax!

[CorkyMax]

So sorry for that poor dog and he is only 2 yrs. old too. It sure sounds like he has it. Why don't you get him tested--If it is a blood test or even other--Can't your vet take a sample and send it to the proper place to be tested? I know you are hoping it isn't the problem but if it is --you need to know--Yes you prob. don't want to hear the bad news but it won't change things----and he will only get worse----If he bit at your husband---He may do it again to either of you or someone else--a child?

Do you think he is feeling miserable? I don't know how to say this any differently that would make you feel any differently. And believe me--I have been through it. I had to put my Corky down because his kidneys were failing--complications of a heart disease that could not be fixed. That was 14 months ago and it still brings tears to my eyes when I think about him. But if your dog is suffering and nothing can be done to fix it and it is only going to get worse---All I can say is You have to think of your dog 1st and what is best for him---If you think he is still happy and not in pain --then maybe it isn't the time yet--but you will have to decide! I am going to give you a poem here that I found after I had to put Corky to sleep--I only wish I had seen it sooner as I prob. should of let my Corky go a few weeks sooner then I did.
IF IT SHOULD BE

If it should be that I grow weak
And pain should keep me from my sleep,
Then you must do what must be done,
For this last battle cannot be won.

You will be sad, I understand.
Don't let your grief then stay your hand.
For this day, more than all the rest,
Your love for me must stand the test.

We've had so many happy years.
What is to come can hold no fears.
You'd not want me to suffer so;
The time has come -- please let me go.

Take me where my need they'll tend,
And please stay with me till the end.
Hold me firm and speak to me,
Until my eyes no longer see.

I know in time that you will see
The kindness that you did for me.
Although my tail its last has waved,
From pain and suffering I've been saved.

Please do not grieve -- it must be you
Who had this painful thing to do.
We've been so close, we two, these years;
Don't let your heart hold back its tears.

--- Anonymous ---

[CorkyMax]

Since you had put this in your post--quote: If anything good can come of this, i hope its for the people who read this to: Become more aware of breeding issues in general
AND To also recognize neurological Storage Disease symptoms early enough to not unknowingly pass on the gene to the next set of Pups. ---I think this is the perfect place to put this message--which I already put in another area in here but important things to know so worth putting in a couple of places. As I noted about this message being credited to Lunareclipse--so be it here too.

How to tell the difference in a responsible breeder and backyard breeder
How do you know if you are dealing with a responsible breeder, or someone who is just a backyard breeder? Below is a list of the differences between the two.
Responsible Breeders:
1 - Take what they do very seriously, and do it for the love of their dogs and the breed, rather than how much money they can get from the puppies.

2 - Use the best possible specimens of their breed, even if it means importing bloodstock from another state or country.

3 - Refuse to breed from any dog that has a genetic disorder, illness, obvious disqualifying faults or has temperament issues.

4 - Makes sure that their breeding bitch has everything she needs to whelp and raise her puppies in comfort.

5 - Does not breed from dogs and bitches that are under 12 months of age or over 6 years of age. (there are different guidelines for appropriate breeding ages of all different dog breeds).

6 - Would much rather sell their puppy to a suitable loving home rather than hold out for the most money they can get.

7 - Stay home with their whelping bitches for usually the last week of the pregnancy and the first week of the puppies lives just so they can be on hand if needed.

8 - Only produce pure-bred puppies. They do not cross different breeds to produce designer or so-called hybrid breeds.

9 - Usually have a long waiting list of people ready to purchase a puppy off them.

10 - Make sure that all of their breeding stock and puppies are in good condition, have been De-wormed regularly and have had all of their vaccinations.

11 - Are always there for you if you have any questions or concerns, and most will take the dog back if you find it is not right for you, or your circumstances change and you can not properly care for the dog any more.

12 - Have their dogs as pets first and breeding stock second.

13 - Allow their breeding bitches time off between litters, even if that means waiting for 12 or 18 months before the next litter of puppies is on the ground.

14- Will take any dog back for any reason for as long as those dogs live to ensure that the dogs they breed NEVER end up in shelters or getting euthanized.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Backyard Breeders:
1 - Seem to have a lot of 'accidental' mating and litters happen.

2 - Do not care whether their bitch is old enough or mature enough to care for a litter of puppies.

3 - Do not bother about producing pure-bred dog.

4 - Do not choose their breeding stock for health, desirable traits or temperament.

5 - Although their bitch to whelp wherever she happens to be, even if that is in with other dogs that may or may not be related to her.

6 - Allow mating to occur, and subsequently litters produced, between dogs that are closely related to each other. i.e. mother/son, father/daughter, brother/sister matings.

7 - Do not ensure that their dogs have been De-wormed regularly, vaccinated, and sometimes even flea treated regularly.

8 - Breed their bitches every season.

9- Do not bother following up with the people who bought the dogs to see if it is working out ok or to see if the puppy is working out well in the new home.

10- They do not take the dogs back that they bred. They could care less how the dog is after it leaves their care.
Buying from a responsible breeder, rather than a backyard breeder, will not necessarily ensure that you purchase a puppy that will never have any problems throughout it's life. But, you can at least rest easily knowing that the puppy and his mother were brought up properly, have had all of their vaccinations and that you are getting exactly what you were told you were getting.
Many (but not all) puppies from backyard breeders rarely turn out the way they are 'supposed to'. Often leaving the new owner with a dog that is the size of a small horse, with a coat that needs grooming almost daily and is constantly requiring veterinary assistance for unknown allergies or tummy upsets.

It may be a little more expensive buying from a responsible breeder, but it will save you not only money, but a lot of heartache in the long run.
If you don't want to pay out the ass for a well-bred dog, adopt from a shelter or rescue. We need to send backyard breeders a messgae by not buying from them. Their irresponsibly bred dogs are filling up our shelters. If you have a dog and it is not a perfect specimen of it's breed, get it fixed so more dogs won't end up getting euthanized in shelters.

[Rhiannon840]

Max, you are the kindest soul and i didnt expect this much from a stranger. The poem made me cry and i dont have any words that begin to express my emotions, but thank you so, so much.

Got returned from the Vet. She wasnt familiar with the disease at all so i left her some print-outs with my apology for my apparent 'know-it-all-ism'. Hard not to seem too pushy and arrogant in regards to treatment but i stressed that the only reason i was so vocal was becuase of the apparent time limit.

She simply took blood to get idea of general health and should get results in about 18hrs. She recommended after i go back for a more thourough health evaluation and the blood test tomorrow, that we start him on a treatment of seizure meds and see how the results go... I had to stress for her to read the medical write-up on NCL but she said she would take a look after we have ruled out all other possibilities. Read battle-of-ethics here: on one hand you have the pets interests at heart but on the other there is the Vet's Proffessional obligations to consider also. I completely agree and understand with her approach as she is coming in to assess my dog with a 'clean-slate' and needs to maintain procedure to get an accurate diagnosis. But when i mentioned that, if it is a storage disease, then time is a factor- esp. around this time. I think she was a bit surprised (maybe peeved) that i was essentially asking for the whole process to be sped up so we can get to the level we need to be. Bless her heart though. Tough situation on both sides. maintaining a good relationship with her is just as important, so we came to a compromise to start seizure meds tomoz. She mentioned the meds should at least build up the tolerance of the seizures, also i remain sceptical.


Like you said though, Its all about the Dog and their beautiful spirit that needs to go to a better place. I just want to make sure he knows ill be there for him if he gets sicker, even if that means letting him go early... ;(


Thanks again for the info. Dealing with this has Really put Breeding Regulations into perspective for me. I have a deeper understanding of genetic problems and feel many other people need to exposed to these cases as well. You Tube has a video Clip that will absolutely break your heart. So for ANYONE reading this, or if you know someone that is still completely ignorant and stubborn to breeding issues, please look up: NCL in Bulldogs on Youtube and see the reason Why IGNORANCE IS NOT BLISS!!!!!


Once again Max, THANK U and i hope you are receiving all the Love that im sending over the Indian Ocean to your heart! MWah MWah. Thank you for just being you by the sounds of things.....




xxxxx



I shall keep you posted if you arent sick of hearing from me yet...?










Rhi

my spelling and grammar is a mess too! Apologies!!!

[Rhiannon840]

PPS: hope my profile pic shows up your end....

[CorkyMax]

So glad that your vet is going to try to get to the bottom of this! I hope the meds help for the seizures. I would check on the web about the med she is prescribing--just put dogs and the name of the med in your browser. I always check out any meds my dog gets prescribed. If you have read about proin or rimadyl in this forum --you would understand why! l Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

Please Do not Give Rimadyl (carprofen)--CAN KILL

I am just a 'regular' person who loves dogs and try to help all I can with them as they are so taken advantage of by so many greedy people! But thank you for all the kind words! And yes I love hearing from you about your 'baby' so keep posting away. What is your dog's name?

As to the profile pic--nothing here yet--may have to be approved 1st--not sure. There has been a lot of problems in this forum for a while now with getting pictures to upload so not sure if it affects the profile one or not
Good luck with the results! (Lol, I am talking with the results from the vet but guess it could also be on getting a profile pic to show too)

[Rhiannon840]

hmmm...very interesting read. thanx!

I think you have totally got yourself confused with a normal person cos you, my friend, are an angel in disguise! Ive noticed all the other posts you have replied to and honestly, please give yourself more credit cos you are so appreciated by me for all you have done for me and others. words arent much but, are often, All we have.....

Success with the pic (i think!) i will load some more photos anyway....so i have some backups pics stored externally mainly.

His name is Tahne (or Tane) pronounced: Tah-Nae
Its a traditional Maori name. He was a Forrest God apparently- which doesnt make much sense cos Western Aust is pretty much desert! Hehe!

Where are you from Max? how many pets do you have now?
tell, tell....


<3

[CorkyMax]

Yep! I see your profile pic now of Tahne--nice looking dog--always glad to see pics of the dogs I become familiar with on this forum.

I am from a very small place --about 500 people--a little 'burg' in southern Wisconsin in the USA. I have 2 dogs--all that is allowed in this place. I have a Cocker Spaniel named Max but he gets called mainly Paxer or Pax puppy. Lol, just a nickname that makes no sense. He is 12+ yrs. And my other dog is a rescue called Sami who also gets called Sammer or Sami girl. Know no background for her as she was picked up as a stray but vets think she is 10ish--She acts a little younger so am hoping she is more like 8 or 9. She must of been treated well by someone as she is very sweet, loving, well behaved and knew what a doggie door was right off the bat. Made herself right at home as soon as she walked/ran in the door of my house! Oh yes, she is a Golden Retriever/Cocker Spaniel mix! I had to put my Corky--a Cocker Spaniel/Golden Retriever mix to sleep because of kidney failure due to complications of heart disease. I have given a link here on more about him.There is a lot I could write here but take too long so I am going to give you some links to some of my posts!
And note that the pic of my 2 dogs in my avator here is an older pic of my now departed Corky --on the right and Max on the left.

Here is a long thread about My Corky:
Update on my Corky
Here are pics of Sami-the rescue dog:Many "positions" of Sami

Am having computer problems--very slow and memory is bad so only going to bring one other link here--It is to my profile page---On the right you will see where I have albums---DON'T click on the blue word album as it will lock you out completely-click on the words underneath that. This forum has a glitch in it and I made the mistake of clicking that blue word as did a few others--We can't get into our own albums or anybody else's as it took the words below the blue album word out and we have nothing there to click on anymore! Let me know that you can see my albums--There is a lot of info under my pics in there--Click on each picture to get a bigger view plus the comments under the pics.

http://www.i-love-dogs.com/forums/me...max-58184.html

Bye for now. (Barb)

[Lunareclipse]

MY pooch was on phenobarbitol for her seizures. She had epilepsy. There is also potassium bromide for seizure medication in doggies. Those are the only 2 accepted seizure medications for dogs. There is another medication given analy to stop seizures that go on too long, but I can't remember what that one is right now. Probably Corky/Max will have that researched for me by the time I pop on again tomorrow.

[CorkyMax]

Okay Luna! I found a very good site right off the bat and started to copy the meds to put here but after writing down the 6th one--found there were many more so I am just going to put the link to this site here and let you find the one you were trying to remember. This is a very informative site about seizures so good to put it here for others to see--including you Rhiannon840! Tells all the possible side effects too and much more---Lol, a lot of 'clicking' with your mouse on many things about these meds and the diseases, etc that can cause seizures. This is all I could find on that site though about NCL-- Results from This Site: 1 - 1 of 1 total results for neurological storage disease

*Liver Disease
Simply described as severe neurological dysfunction due to advanced liver disease. Has been linked to the accumulation of biological toxins, including ammonia, alterations in the blood brain barrier,
Liver Disease - 32 kB - Apr 30, 20

Actually was surprised to see anything on it at all----But this is a good site (see the link below--The above link came up with the info above--not sure what it is about--Haven't checked it out yet!) for you to check all things about seizures--what to do when one is happening, etc. plus all the info about the many different meds! Be sure to ask the name of the med the vet is giving---both names for it--like the generic and the brand name.

Here is the link for the whole site: (Luna, this is the one you want to see too)

Canine Epilepsy and diseases that cause seizures in dogs

I just checked out that 1st link above (Liver Disease) It is a long read but may be some things in there that you should know about--Rhiannon840--esp. maybe later on so check it carefully and 'absorb' some of the info if you can! It is a good read for anyone--a lot of things to know about concerning the dog's liver.

[Lunareclipse]

I already had that site on my desktop. I am battling a cold and didn't even think of linking it on here.

[Rhiannon840]

Hi Guys,

I had to go away for the weekend (drove 2000km- phew! long trip) and only just returned home! Terribly sorry for not replying- i felt so bad....


Only quickly glanced the Canine Epilepsy page and will have a thorough read after...
Had my worse fears confirmed when i got home a few hours ago- hind legs are giving way... Husband confirmed hind legs are crossing over when walking and if his front legs arent positioned properly- he cant sit up without falling over. just witnessed thi9s for myself and burst into tears. ;(

Been on anti-seizure meds for a since Friday (Your thurs) PHENOMAV is the brand of Phenobarbitone that he is on. It makes Tahne terribly drowsy and lethargic. Shannin (my husband) hasnt witrnessed any seizures over the weekend so thats one good thing i suppose....

Lunar- thanks for the input, keep it coming. And i LOVE your quote- if you could only see my facebook status's you would be shocked at the similarities in your quote (great Minds.....)

Barb- thanks for putting some background to who u are. Sorry for calling u Max! hehe (for some reason i thought that was your name but then realised it was your dogs name- i am blonde, sorry! )
im going to get DNA test done ASAP but have to wait for the kit to come from Eastern States of Australia, and thats frustrating! Will get the local Vet to check him out tomorrow so she can witness his deterioration......


Will keep u informed and have a read on the site u guys provided....





MUCH LOVE>>>talk soon


xxx

[Rhiannon840]

ok, just read the meds can cause Ataxia.....

Spoke to my Cousin who is a vet over the weekend and so i msged her when i read that...she said its best to stop the meds till i see the Vet in the morn





Talk soon...

[CorkyMax]

Here is a link you might want to read: Phenomav Side Effects - Australian Pure Bred Dog Forums - Dogz Online

Be back here with more comments---trying to catch you before you leave the forum!

This link doesn't mention that disease you think your dog has but a lot of the posts sound like it and I was wondering if drugs for seizures was a good idea with this disease. Sift things out carefully and maybe print out some info to take with you to the vet today!!

I noticed in that site I just gave you a link to-- that blood tests should be done before giving meds for epilepsy and that it should tell you a lot about whether certain meds should work for whatever type of epilepsy it is---I'm not saying this right and I don't want to go check it out right now---But hope you understand what I am getting out--and be able to find that info in that site!!

[Rhiannon840]

hehe...ok ill leave my tab open. (sorry i was doing 20 things at once)

Will check it out now! Mwah!

[Rhiannon840]

off to the vet this morning

[Lunareclipse]

I hope everything goes ok.