[dyet]

Hi

Have some doggie issues. We can't seem to get a hold of them.

Here's the story;

We have three dogs.

Max - 12 Year old male Lab/Shepard X - very good disposition, loves kids, loves people in general except for tha occasional squirrel.
Still has lots of character but doesn't play most of the times, likes to watch us, while sitting on the couch.

Maddie 9 year old female collie/Keshond X - very dedicated companion to my wife, loves to play, and very possessive. Visitors coming to the house can be noisy at times. We never had a problem with her taking to visitors.

enter... the new pup...

Rico - 7 month German Sheppard - very good disposition, friendly loves to play like any normal pup. Has taken to Maddie like a mother, loves to play with her.

What our problem is Maddie at first loved the pup and played with her but now within the last two months, Maddie is distancing herself with the pup..now it will attack and rip fur out of the pup. Rico(the pup) always goes back. I am thinking wanting to get acceptance from the female???.. i dunno?

We scold Maddie telling her bad. But she doesn't listen to anything we say anymore, almost like she is in a world of her own?.. When she is outside
and we tell her to come in and she won't come in, you have to physically go out and grab her by the collar to get her in the house. She doesn't listen to us anymore. Healthwise, she is very overweight (she is on a diet) She had a spell with vommitting and diarreha, but that seems to have subsided. Right now, her urine is extremely yellow but her poop seems to be fine and she hasn't vommitted in awhile.
We did take her to the vet and got her checked out and they did a whole series of tests they all came back except one showing that her kidney levels are a little elevated. Nothing to be concerned about. The vet wanted us to do more tests like MRI etc. But the vet told us that we could spending well into the thousands for treatment. We are not prepared to do that right now.

Basically, the vet thinks that with the new addition of the dog its tough on Maddie's system both mentally and physically???

We have spent more quality time with Maddie, trying to walk her, just being with her. But everytime the other dogs come around a dog fight ensues.
Luckily the other dogs don't fight "that much" just enough to protect themselves and back off.

Now, the older dog Max stays in the basement because he is scared he is going to get attacked.

The dog fight are always in the morning (once we get up) and in the evening. Never during the day...which is odd.

My wife and I are at wits end. We are wondering what we can do?

Thanks for any suggestions!

Dave

[4 dog nite]

It actually sounds like the problems might be too serious to be addressed here and you might need to speak to a behaviorist...but in the meantime, there are a few things you might consider...

Dogs are heirarchical, so bringing a new dog into the pack will mean he has to find his place in the pecking order. While humans have an appreciation for seniority, dogs do not, and the higher energy puppy will pose a very real threat to the position of the current alpha dog, just by virtue of being higher energy. The dog most likely to successfully lead and defend the pack is the natural leader so the puppy's vigor will make him a frontrunner for the job. Ideally of course, you and your wife will be the pack leaders, but even if you have that firmly established, the dogs will still jockey for their own places in the pack under you. As the pup grows, he will naturally grow into the alpha role, and Maddie would (normally) accept that graciously as the natural order.

Dogs left alone would sort this out pretty quickly and generally without any serious injuries. When people get involved, we can complicate it by trying to soothe the older dogs, show them special favors etc, which can confuse and prolong the process. Dogs don't care what position they are in, they only care that the position is understood and accepted. Your older dog will be quite happy to relinquish alpha status, if she knows that you (as pack leaders) accept her in that position.

It's likely that the puppy will "rise to the top" no matter what you may prefer, again, because of his greater ability to defend the pack. You can help your other dogs accept this quickly and easily by signalling to them that you accept this inevitable natural order and aren't challenging his right to do so.

To humans, it's counter intuitive to treat the new pup a little more respectfully (getting fed first, going through doors before the others, etc) than the others, and it's natural for us to want to show the older dogs that they are still important to us by showing them more favor. But to a dog, that behavior is confusing and disruptive. They can't sort out their differences and still please you, when you are signalling to them that you want something different. My guess (based on not enough information) is that by giving Maddie special favor you are telling her you want her to defend her position as alpha, and that goes counter to what she would do instintively...so it's causing her stress and anxiety.

You say it happens in the morning and evening...look carefully at what is going on during those times. Are you letting them in and out of crates? What order do they go in or out? Are you greeting them with pats and treats? Again...what order? Are you allowing them to sit on/near you? Who gets the best seat? Sometimes the cues that the dogs pick up on can be very subtle to us (body language, tone of voice)...but screamingly loud to them. Enough to warrant another physical challenge.

It may be something as simple as this...or it may be something more complex. Either way, I understand your frustration and desire to deal with it before serious harm results. Watch carefully for a few days to see if you can determine what is triggering the behavior..but remember to include what you and your wife are doing, not just what the dogs are doing, in your research. If you think it's a dominance issue (and it's certainly related to that in some way, if not entirely that) then I would suggest that the pack leaders try to let the pack know that the ball of energy is going to be taking his natural place in the pack so the other dogs can relax and stop trying to challenge him on your behalf.

If it doesn't seem to help, ask your local shelter if they can recommend a good behaviorist who can watch the dogs and give you some professional advice. Good luck to you...please let us know how it goes.

[suebgone]

I would suggest you google NILIF ( Nothing In Life Is Free ) & start using it asap with all your dogs. this will show you how you & your wife can become the alpha leaders.

I do not agree that you let the dogs jockey for position. the oldest should come first & so on down the line - puppy last. they seem to do better when they know where their nich is

I don't agree with subjecting older dogs to puppies & you are seeing the results of it. Max is hiding in the basement?

while Maddie may be trying to train the puppy as a mother would, none of us can judge that without seeing the behavior. my guess is she is just fed up with his behavior.

[Lyka_01]

All I can say is dog fight really occurs...
that's a dog nature...
just like human we fight too...
but better make them a bit far to each other to avoid that fighting...:mrgreen:

[dyet]

Thanks everyone for your support and messages, we are getting a behaviorist to come into our home next week and see what they can help us with our problem.

I talked to the behaviorist already and he mentioned that he could help out with the problem and he assured me that, with a commitment from us, you will notice improvements right away.

So my wife and I are glad there is a solution!

I will most definitely let you know how we make out!

Thanks again!

Dave

[4 dog nite]

Dave,

Very glad to hear you are trying a behaviorist! As you can see just from the few answers here, people have some very different opinions about dog behavior, and I suspect that there are many different ways to get to the same destination, if you have patience, committment and desire to see it through.

We have a four dog family, so I can appreciate how (temporarily) disruptive a newcomer can be...and how rewarding it all is when everyone finds their place and relaxes into it.

Good luck with your canine family...and yes...please do let us know how it works out for you!