OK I just posted that I am trying a new trainer/behaviour modification person.

I have a very fearful dog and he will be with me 5 yrs on Valentimes day anyway I know that I have tried it all with him but he is still so fearful.

She told me to do cradle and massage and that in 3 weeks he should be a calmer dog. It was funny he did exactly what she said he would do and fought me but once in the technique you could feel him relax.........

anyway I am wondering if anyone heard of this and if it worked with you.

If she can help me fix him she will be my all time hero- its been a hard 5 years

[Piti Longstalking]

IMO fearful dogs should not be forced to submit, regardless of the end behavior you observe. The dog should willingly submit. You may want to look into this instead.

Tellington TTouch Training

Thanks I am not looking for criticism- I have had enough in 5 years listening to people tell me what I should do with my dog- she told me more about my dog than any other trainer in one evaluation.

I get what your saying but when he relaxed he was mush. Its the first step all he knows is pain (he was abused) is going to happen when people get near him, he has to let that go. He is doing himself no justice health wise being this stressed. I have been thru alot and nothing has ever worked.

NOW I want to hear from people that have dealt with this if anyone.

[Piti Longstalking]

I didn't offer ANY criticism. You asked for opinions and I gave you mine.

You have to understand that fear is involuntary behavior. He's not doing it to himself, it happens by association. The key to changing that association is to maintain the dog below threshold, such that he can willingly offer an alternate behavior that you can grow.

If you're forcing the dog to be cradled you're basically flooding the dog. There's not much learning that can be had from flooding, except for learning how to submit to force. The appearance will be he's learning how to deal with stress when in actuality he's still stressed but shutting down to avoid the stress.

How about you tell us what you are being told to do to the dog during a "cradle & massage" session. That might give us a better idea. Frankly, I've never heard of this method but that doesn't mean anything.

I loved and was loved by a very fearful dog for 11 years. Through desensitization, she overcome some of her fears and we learned to manage things pretty well to prevent putting her (or letting others put her) in a situation that was too much for her. I know well the frustration and the desire to see your beloved dog get better. I guess it's just a matter of whether "better" is improvement or perfection. Libby would never reach "perfection" and it would have been an injustice to us both to attempt to force it one her. For example, she never overcame her fear of men but she did overcome her fear of children--to an extent.

Just food for thought: do you KNOW your dog was abused or is that an assumption based on fear behaviors? Many people assume a dog has experienced physical abuse because of their fear of men or children or whatever. Those fears can be present without any such prior abuse. We make assumptions and then feel pity because of those assumptions and then act on the pity which does not benefit the dog.

sorry I started this thread...................im done

Ill let you know what happens when Im done with this trainer

Frecs PM me if you want

I hope you check in and read this. The method is a simple calming restraint (NOT like an alpha-roll or other domination methods). I have found it works very well, I am assuming that your trainer uses positive based methods if she is telling you to try this. Please let me know how it work, I find it does. Good Luck!

Originally Posted by orangedog

I hope you check in and read this. The method is a simple calming restraint (NOT like an alpha-roll or other domination methods). I have found it works very well, I am assuming that your trainer uses positive based methods if she is telling you to try this. Please let me know how it work, I find it does. Good Luck!

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! no alpha roll or anything simply calming and massage- YES - she is more into why the dogs are the way they are - obdience is another thing she does but she cares more for rehabing dogs and making people keep their pets instead of tossing in the pound. (which I would never do)

[Piti Longstalking]

I'm not suggesting you're doing an alpha role. And whether the restraint is "calming" is defendant on the dog. My point was and still is, if the dog is not choosing to be restrained, you're not solving the actual problem.

It is not to be used as a punishment or band-aid simply to "calm" this is how I learned it and hope that is the way your trainer is implementing it. I think Piti has mis-understood it as a method to punish or correct a behavior. I hope that makes things a little more clear.

[Piti Longstalking]

Originally Posted by orangedog

I think Piti has mis-understood it as a method to punish or correct a behavior.

No, I have not misunderstood the technique. There's nothing I've said that would imply I see cradling as a punishment. What I have suggested is that if the dog is in fear, being cradled can be punishing and this would be counter-productive. We're talking about a fearful dog whose behavior is not voluntary. The onus is on the owner to recognize that and not force a dog to do something against his fear. The onus is on the owner to teach the dog to voluntarily submit to being cradled. It's about changing the dog's association where it starts. The dog may enjoy being massaged be if he never learns to volunteer his body for it, you have not solved the root of the problem. The dog needs a history of requesting a massage to drive the message home.

Then again, this could be a dog who does not enjoy being touched at all and the whole experience could be punishing.

[DobermanR27]

I was wondering how your fearful dog was coming along,I have TONS of experience with the cradle and massage,it is a very well known technique used by top behaviorists in the country.Lots of dog trainers use this as a positive method used to teach dogs to accept and enjoy human touch and handling it is in no way a negative or abusive technique,I hope that your fearful pup has become less so and that you continue to create a strong bond between yourself and your canine companion!