[bostonlover]

ok so when ever myself or my bf go to grab the puppy by his scruff or touch him on neck area including his shoulders and chest and neck, he freaks out and trys to bite you while he's sounding like your killing him.

now i've never seen this in a puppy as younge as mine. he's 10 weeks old.

now when he's playing with my 3yr old boston they both try to be dominet (sorry i cant spell tonight lol) over each other and this is another thing i've never seen in such a younge puppy


any ideas on what might be going on?

[Lara's mom]

Why would you be grabbing a small puppy by the scruff of the neck to begin with?

[CorkyMax]

by Tracie Hotchner, Author & Radio Show Host
Ignore books or shows which demonstrate a person “taking charge” of a dog by grabbing a handful of skin at the back of the neck. This is a sure way to get bitten or at least foster ill feelings with the dog.

Found the above on the net. You haven't 'messed up' his spine or anything by grabbing him there? Referring to the yelping like he is hurting? He is prob. just showing that he doesn't like it though. Why not pick him up in your arms anyhow! More cuddlesome and would think you both would like it over the neck 'business'!

[Lunareclipse]

Why would you scruff a dog? If he doesn't like it quit doing it. You guys are hurting him.

[CorkyMax]

Also found this on net---(from a forum)

Biting when scruff is grabbed.
by APBTLove » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:32 am

My older brother's dog is biting, real biting, when his scruff is grabbed.
This dog will let you pull his tail and lay on him, but snaps when you try to move him by his scruff, either off of a couch or outside, ect.
I moved him from this cough this way, no collar at the time, and he whipped around and nipped my niece.
Same with my brother, but he was trying to get him inside and received a bite bad enough to break skin.

A little background here:
This dog was a stray who was brought in by a lady who thinks she is a rescue.
He lived in her garage for nearly a year, he of course went out to do his business and such.
He was then taken in by my brother, he is 4-5 years old.

My brother is too rough, but this needs to have some kind of answers.
If I can get some opinions that are not form me, he may listen.
APBTLove
Senior Contributor ***


by uptowndogs » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:55 am

Why not get a collar and not grab by the scruff? You don't say how big the dog is, but I would imagine it's not the most comfortable way to control the dog, and my guess is it's painful for the dog. Why not put a collar or harness on the dog? If your brother is too rough that may be the answer right there. I've heard of using the scruff in training exercises with puppies to establish leadership, but I don't think it's appropriate for an adult dog. It's possible too that somewhere in this dogs past it was mistreated, possibly someone trying to do some training by using the old "shake by the scruff" method...I personally don't like this method whatever the age of dog. I think there are gentler ways of training and establishing leadership. I hope your brother lightens up a bit before there is a really serious injury, or worse the dog learns that biting is an effective way to win a battle and begins biting at other times as well.
uptowndogs
Senior Contributor ***

[CorkyMax]

scruffing a dog
by Peggy Swager » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:03 pm

Grabbing a dog by his scruff is a power move. The dog regards this action the same as he would if you came up and alpha rolled him.

Grabbing a dog by his scruff, with some dogs, can also smart. If you came up and pinched me (what the dog may feel with this action) I might snap at you because that hurt.

This action needs to stop. I liked the collar suggestion, or just train the dog to move on command. Get a treat to entice the dog to follow your command until he learns, then fade the treat.

Good luck training your brother to change his behavior. As for brothers, having had three, you may want to try treat training with him also. That works better than threats and trying to be bossy.

Peggy Swager
APDT-Behaviorist
author of Training the Hard to Train Dog
www.PeggysWager . comPeggy Swager
Senior Dog Loving Member **

[CorkyMax]

Oh, the poor baby! Yes, it can really harm an adult dog, as their skin attaches like ours when they mature..It pulls the skin away from the flesh, and causes great pain, and can cause permanent injury to the ears.
Source(s):
dog breeder since 1968
There are different opinions on this. From most of what I have experienced in my 30-40 years deailing with pet dogs (I am 44 & have always had at least one dog all my life, have rescued & fostered some, & currently own 4), plus what I've read & heard from trainers, it seems that grasping the scruff of the neck is not generally harmful, & sometimes it helps, in difficult situations, when the dog is not otherwise paying attention or under control. Since mother dogs do pick up, carry, & discipline their puppies by grabbing the scruffs of the pups' necks with their mouths, the scruff of the neck is made to handle some grabbing. You had to do, what you had to do, to restrain your dog, when the lead came off. BUT, if you see any CHANGES in the dog, such as the way it holds its head, neck, ears, etc., then it would be GOOD to get the dog checked by your VET. With a dog as big & strong as a bull mastiff, I can't imagine that a tug on the scruff would do much damage. BUT, since the dog is older, you say you pulled hard on his neck, & you say he yelped loudly, I would say, if you have any doubt about the dog's wellbeing, take him to the vet. He may just be sore for a while, but he might also have an injury that affects how he holds his ears. MOST of the time, dogs don't get hurt from a moderate pull on the scruff. But anything is possible, so I would say, let the vet look at your dog. Also, if the lead coming off is a worry, you might want to try the Gentle Leader head collar along with his regular collar, a harness, a heavier lead with a sturdier type of hook, or even 2 leads on the collar at once, one as a backup for the other. I can tell you from just the 4 dogs that I have now, that dogs' sensitivity & reaction to a pull on the scruff varies greatly. My little Italian Greyhound yelps & scrunches down to the ground if you even slightly grasp her scruff. My Lab can handle a slight grasp on her scruff, but if you pull even a little bit, she yelps loudly & sits or lies down. My small mixed breed (either a pit bull & dachshund mix or a pit bull & corgi mix) doesn't immediately react to a scruff pull unless it's firm, then she just seems annoyed, whines,& stops whatever she was doing until you let go. My pit bull / shar pei mix seems not to notice that someone is grasping his scruff, until the grip is quite hard, at which point he stops whatever he's doing, looks up, & sits down, but never yelps. Still, I wouldn't drag any of my dogs around by the scruff, unless it was an emergency situation.
Source(s):
Assorted dog books by Carol Lea Benjamin, Brian Kilcommons, Kristin Mehus-Roe, & Bruce Fogle, & info from my vet. Also, I spent some time working with a friend who has trained setters & pointers for bird hunting for the past 20 years. He gave me the ideas about secure leads, harnesses, collars, etc.. Whenever something changes about my dog (even ear position) & I wonder why, I tend to ask a vet, just to be on the safe side.

Note: All the posts I have done in this thread (except my 1st post) are copied off the net-----Not my words!!

[Lara's mom]

I have raised and fostered dogs for my entire adult life and I have NEVER physically corrected their behaviour. By doing so, you are asking to get bitten!!!

[bostonlover]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

Why would you be grabbing a small puppy by the scruff of the neck to begin with?

oh i think you got the wrong idea. i dont grab him and pick him up by his scruff or anything. if he's playing too hard or doing something that he shouldnt do, im trying to do the milian thing where you imitate another dog kinda "biting" his neck and trying to put him on his side or back.

after i re-read that i didnt make it clear, sorry about that everyone

[bostonlover]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

by Tracie Hotchner, Author & Radio Show Host
Ignore books or shows which demonstrate a person “taking charge” of a dog by grabbing a handful of skin at the back of the neck. This is a sure way to get bitten or at least foster ill feelings with the dog.

Found the above on the net. You haven't 'messed up' his spine or anything by grabbing him there? Referring to the yelping like he is hurting? He is prob. just showing that he doesn't like it though. Why not pick him up in your arms anyhow! More cuddlesome and would think you both would like it over the neck 'business'!

he also will do this if he has a coller on or if you have your hand under his chest near his neck with out any real pressure

[bostonlover]

he also freaks out if you try pick him up and put him into your arms on his back and trys to bite you. i've noticed he will get very stiff and starts to growl and show his teeth a little before he snaps. i just dont think its right for a puppy whos only 10 weeks old to show this type of behavier.

i hope everyone dosent think i'm shaking him by the scruff cause i could never do that to any animal and there are tons of different ways of training and with my other dog i have trained him with clicker and treats.


i did get to talk to a trainer and i was told that due to him being an only one in the litter he thinks he's the alpha dog......lucky me lol. he also trys to bully my 3yr old boston around and i try to make sure they see each other equal with me being the pack learder


well i'll try keep everyone up to date on how things go. i was just worried that he might of been hurt before i got him from the breeder and i didnt know what was going on.

thanks to everyone

[pinsnpugs]

The scruff grabbing has likely made him fearful of you and made your touch unwanted by him now.
You will have to start over with the trust issue on him, start by no physical punishments.
Him 'trying to dominate your other dog' is typical puppy play in reality. Puppies do play very hard. Him being an only puppy only means he isnt as sensitive about how hard he is biting because he did not learn with littermates many of the lessons that come with that. Bite inhibition also is taught by mom, and if you got him too young, he would have missed that as well.

'Imitating' a trainer is not a great idea, especially Caeser.
There is alot more to the manuevers than you can learn by watching tv. A certain amount of tounch, a certain behavior and response by you, timing, etc

Corrections are a matter of timing, their memeory and attention span is so short, if you dont correct at that moment than they have no clue why they are being corrected.

Look into hiring a hands on trainer to come to your home, or you got here. If you dont find one, than getting a start with obedience will help. It will set a basis for commands and whats expected and give you tools to correct him once he is trained so that you do not have to physically correct him. Obedience training also places the boss where he should be...you are now in charge once he is trained...thats makes a difference.

[bostonlover]

Originally Posted by pinsnpugs

The scruff grabbing has likely made him fearful of you and made your touch unwanted by him now.
You will have to start over with the trust issue on him, start by no physical punishments.

this started on the ride home from the breeder and i was just holding him in my arms so im kinda thinking it was something from the mother or the breeders.
from what we were told the mother liked to carry him around by his back legs and he has some nasty scars from this "yes we had him look at by a vet and did xrays and there is nothing wrong with his back legs and he dosent show pain if you touch or pet him on his hips or legs "

but like i said i dont grab him in a mean way or lift him off the ground or anything by the scruff, if he's doing something wrong like chewing on something that he might choke on i kinda hold on to his scruff to be able to get something out of his mouth. in my first post i didnt word it right and im sorry about this.

[german sheep]

Hi bostonlover,

where in nature are for example wolves showing this kind of behaviour --> grapping at the neck?
Yes when they have made prey. And what are they doing with the prey? They kill it by shaking to death.

So what do you think you signalize your dog when grapping its neck?
Of cause he screams like you are going to kill him because the signals you are sending are clearly that you are going to kill your dog (from his standpoint).

So when both of your dogs are showing this kind of behaviour against each other, what do you think they are practizing? Yes, how to kill each other quickly when one day the situation has come to show how strong every single one of them is and a ressource is important enough, so it pays off.

PS: this is not funny or cuddely or something else. Look around, some of the user have already had exactly this situation. It all started with sweetness but that is our feeling and our interpretation. Dogs are different.

LG
GS

[Bamber]

Hi,
I have an 8 week old puppy (boxerxlab)
I also have a five yr old JRTX... They play often and once my jack russle lays down the line, the pup backs up so i am not sure if i can really help you in this situation....
If your dogs are constantly fighting for dominance i would recommend that you try taking on a stronger leadership role... Practice simple leadership excersises such as, walking in the door first, making them sit while feeding, making them walk behind you. Sometimes in a pack if there is no leader the other pack members will constantly fight for that role!

[bostonlover]

ok no one is understanding my question or problem. sorry i wasnt able to get my problem across to everyone but everyone has taken it the wrong way.

[bostonlover]

Originally Posted by Bamber

Hi,
I have an 8 week old puppy (boxerxlab)
I also have a five yr old JRTX... They play often and once my jack russle lays down the line, the pup backs up so i am not sure if i can really help you in this situation....
If your dogs are constantly fighting for dominance i would recommend that you try taking on a stronger leadership role... Practice simple leadership excersises such as, walking in the door first, making them sit while feeding, making them walk behind you. Sometimes in a pack if there is no leader the other pack members will constantly fight for that role!

thoughs are a few things i have been trying to do with the puppy. my 3 yr old boston already will wait for me or my bf to walk in first. since i've moved to the new house i've been making him sit for his food but the puppy dosent like to sit for very long lol. when were out on walks the puppy also likes to fight his leash and been working on it but hes still young

but thank you for the ideas