[Yogi]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

The info from Todd is good IF you can carry it through but you really should be aware that often the best trainers in the world can not solve the problem when two bitches take it into their heads that they can not live together. Please be very very careful and take nothing for granted. Bitches can, and will, fight to the death if they see a need.

Unfortunately this is very true. But not to say that it cannot be fixed but there are cases when simply put, the 2 will never get along.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Unfortunately this is very true. But not to say that it cannot be fixed but there are cases when simply put, the 2 will never get along.

Same thing has been going on with my Aunt's cats for over 2 years now. It started with this redirected aggression and now the female cat is fearful of the male because of the previous aggressive behavior. They fight badly when around one another. I have given my Aunt suggestions but she seems really over protective and cautious with the situation. Therefore the cats have been permanantly separated in different parts of the house for years now. Hopefully it doesn't have to come to that in your situation.

[cigwyllt]

As responsible owners we need to make sure that people understand the seriousness of the situation when two bitches take against each other. There is a lot of helpful info out there and Todd, you are great at finding stuff that is clear and easy to read BUT there is no substitute for an experienced behaviourist who can observe the dogs' body language and teach the owner to defuse the situation.

I am not trying to scare people but I have read too many stories where one bitch has killed or seriously wounded the other. These cases usually happen where there is an experienced, confident owner who feels that the situation is under control - a less confident owner is more likely to have rehomed one or the other before a tragedy occurrs.

I think in situations like this we need to make sure that people use expert advice and understand that without significant input, usually involving an experienced behaviourist, there could well be a fatality.

As Yogi has said, there is no guarantee that even following Todd's advice to the letter the two bitches will ever live peacefully together.

[Youme Webark]

I am getting really worried now. I wish I can find a good behaviourist in Thailand. I love both of them very much and wish that both of them can live together peacefully.

The last fight was four days ago. Right after each fights they licked each other ears and wagged their tails. Does this mean something?

I have been observing something that the beagle who is much smaller than the labrador has been trying to avoid situations that would upset the labrador. For example, there was a fight started by a beagle accidentally stepped on the labrador when she was sleeping. After that fight the beagle would not go near the labrador when she was sleeping. Yesterday, the labrador lied down close to the beagle, the beagle quickly got up and walked away.

Although in general it seems like the labrador is more submissive. For example, everytime the labrador sees my mother she would be excited and the beagle would bark and bite softly at the labrador's tail.

Another thing, when the dogs get something, food treats or toys, it would be the beagle first and the labrador after. Is this bad?

after a long search. I finally found a behaviourist in thailand and luckily not too far from my backhill chiangkum.



What do you guys think? should I contact them right away? what should I be look out for, how to notice a good behaviourist?

[cigwyllt]

I think it would be best to avoid giving treats and toys altogether. If the treats form part of their food intake for the day just put them in their bowls at meal times. I don't leave toys lying around the house for my dogs - when one of the dogs goes out for a walk and some one to one time they have a toy then but otherwise nothing.

Even if the lab is the more submissive of the two she can still get rile enough to tell the beagle to get away. My old dog is generally bottom of the three but if she is annoyed she will make it bery clear to the others and she will snap at them. Submissive and non aggressive are not the same thing.

It actually sounds like your lab is the more dominant of the two - she chose to flop down by the beagle and the beagle, being submissive, moved away.

The licking is an appeasement gesture - my Jack Russell would like my old girl's face all the time when he was younger because he was nervous of her. I also see it in my dogs if, for example, someone treads on the dog's foot or tail. The dog will cry and might snap their teeth - not trying to bite but making it clear "That hurt!" then instantly the dog will turn round and lick whoever it was that hurt him - as though he/she knows the response was inappropriate.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

I think it would be best to avoid giving treats and toys altogether. If the treats form part of their food intake for the day just put them in their bowls at meal times. I don't leave toys lying around the house for my dogs - when one of the dogs goes out for a walk and some one to one time they have a toy then but otherwise nothing.

Even if the lab is the more submissive of the two she can still get rile enough to tell the beagle to get away. My old dog is generally bottom of the three but if she is annoyed she will make it bery clear to the others and she will snap at them. Submissive and non aggressive are not the same thing.

It actually sounds like your lab is the more dominant of the two - she chose to flop down by the beagle and the beagle, being submissive, moved away.

The licking is an appeasement gesture - my Jack Russell would like my old girl's face all the time when he was younger because he was nervous of her. I also see it in my dogs if, for example, someone treads on the dog's foot or tail. The dog will cry and might snap their teeth - not trying to bite but making it clear "That hurt!" then instantly the dog will turn round and lick whoever it was that hurt him - as though he/she knows the response was inappropriate.

I agree. It's sounding to me like the labrador is more dominant than the beagle and the beagle is trying to avoid potentially negative altercations showing her submissiveness and that she doesn't want to fight with the labrador. Even if the labrador seems submissive in certain situations doesn't mean the labrador still isn't the alpha dog in her relationship with the beagle. Also, this could perhaps be a case where the pack order hasen't been establish and both females r fighting over the head sopt in the pack. Sounds like this could be the issue. When this involves two female dogs things can get dangerous and neither dog may give in as others said above. If they haven't fought for 4 days that's good. If they fight again soon use the techniques I provided 4 u above with the air horn, water gun, etc. This may be very beneficial in stoping these fight before it gets too serious. Another good thing u can try is when they get face to face and look one another in the eyes and or growl (you'll be able to tell most of the time if they may begin to fight) use an umbrella to pop open in between them or even something like a tennis racket. This will divide them and often stop the fighting from beginning or escalating.

Personally, I'd hold off on a trainer for a few more weeks and try the methods provided here 4 u. If things don't improve then professional intervention may be neccessary. If u do decide to eventually go 4 the trainer, here's some info I found online about finding a good 1;

Choosing A Dog Trainer

Google

Once again, best of luck to u.

[Youme Webark]

So giving them treats encourage bad behaviour?

Would it be ok during walks?

the labrador seems more aggressive during fights and afterward she would be the one licking the beagle's ears.

I would usually let the fight dissolve on its own basically because I don't know what to do and the labrador is way too strong for me. One time my uncle pulled them apart and the labrador seems to have calmed down after my uncle got her collar but the beagle still would not calm down.

This is so confusing, I can't tell who is more dominant.


ps. can I go on here in this thread or should I start a new one?

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Youme Webark

So giving them treats encourage bad behaviour?

Would it be ok during walks?

the labrador seems more aggressive during fights and afterward she would be the one licking the beagle's ears.

I would usually let the fight dissolve on its own basically because I don't know what to do and the labrador is way too strong for me. One time my uncle pulled them apart and the labrador seems to have calmed down after my uncle got her collar but the beagle still would not calm down.

This is so confusing, I can't tell who is more dominant.


ps. can I go on here in this thread or should I start a new one?

The treats themselves aren't encouraging the bad behavior, it's the fact that giving treats to the dogs while they are together could start a fight. This is a form of possessive aggression. Give them treats when they aren't around one another.

Have u tried the techniques I provided for breaking up fights like the air horn technique, water gun technique, or maybe the tennis racket or umbrella?

Sounds like they may both be fighting ovwer the dominant position and it isn't being established...

[cigwyllt]

I'm going to have to disagree with Todd on this one I have heard far too many stories of serious, fatal fights to suggest you wait and see. I'm not scaremongering but concerned that the next fight could be more serious.

There's plenty of room I hope for Todd and I to disagree while still respecting each other's advice and experience. But I think if you are unable physically to step in and separate the two dogs you can not afford to be taking the risk of using distractions to break up the fights.

I've tried air horns to break up hyper behaviour between my dogs and they are useless - the more submissive dog is scared leaving the dominant one at an advantage. You might try all the methods Todd recommends and yet find yourself unable to separate them.

Personally, the only advice I would give would be to consult a professional.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

I'm going to have to disagree with Todd on this one I have heard far too many stories of serious, fatal fights to suggest you wait and see. I'm not scaremongering but concerned that the next fight could be more serious.

There's plenty of room I hope for Todd and I to disagree while still respecting each other's advice and experience. But I think if you are unable physically to step in and separate the two dogs you can not afford to be taking the risk of using distractions to break up the fights.

I've tried air horns to break up hyper behaviour between my dogs and they are useless - the more submissive dog is scared leaving the dominant one at an advantage. You might try all the methods Todd recommends and yet find yourself unable to separate them.

Personally, the only advice I would give would be to consult a professional.

You could very well be correct. The methods I suggested are probably worth a try though I would say. Dogs are individuals and one of these methods may help or as you said, none may work at all. The only way you can find out if the particular method works for your dogs is to experiment and find out. As you said, it may very well require professional intervention. Doesn't hurt to try methods though to see if anything works. Again, it may or may not. You never know though until you at least try.

[Youme Webark]

Originally Posted by Todd

Have u tried the techniques I provided for breaking up fights like the air horn technique, water gun technique, or maybe the tennis racket or umbrella?

Not yet Todd, the girls have been good in the last four days.

I don't know if you guys are on dogforums but I posted a thread about this up there as well with the same username as this one.

"I have a beagle 3 1/2 yr and a labrador 3 yr old. The beagle is probably more dominant. The labrador would usually back down when the beagle wanted to pick a fight. However, recently the labrador would not back down and both of them are wounded, but just minor wounds, although the beagle is much smaller than the labrador.

the way it has been is that the labrador was bullied by the beagle all the time (like not letting the labrador on the sofa) and the labrador would usually submit to the beagle. the labrador snapped and start fights in these situations (as I observed):

1. the labrador was sleeping and the beagle accidentally (i think) stepped on the labrador. ( this was a long time ago, recently the beagle would avoid walking close to the labrador when she was sleeping)

2. other dogs were around on the other side of the fence

3. the beagle was picked up (this was also long time ago, we never picked the beagle up since then)

4. most recently, it was 104 F and the dogs were waiting to get out of the house, as the door opened instead of running out as usual, they turned to each other and fought

Can someone help please? re-homing would be the very last option. "

This is what I posted there. There was a return comment which makes me really worried about the situation. What it said was that I made a big mistake that I let the beagle bullied the labrador when they were younger and this will end badly.

I realized that this may be true but there really is no way to fix it?

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Youme Webark

Not yet Todd, the girls have been good in the last four days.

I don't know if you guys are on dogforums but I posted a thread about this up there as well with the same username as this one.

"I have a beagle 3 1/2 yr and a labrador 3 yr old. The beagle is probably more dominant. The labrador would usually back down when the beagle wanted to pick a fight. However, recently the labrador would not back down and both of them are wounded, but just minor wounds, although the beagle is much smaller than the labrador.

the way it has been is that the labrador was bullied by the beagle all the time (like not letting the labrador on the sofa) and the labrador would usually submit to the beagle. the labrador snapped and start fights in these situations (as I observed):

1. the labrador was sleeping and the beagle accidentally (i think) stepped on the labrador. ( this was a long time ago, recently the beagle would avoid walking close to the labrador when she was sleeping)

2. other dogs were around on the other side of the fence

3. the beagle was picked up (this was also long time ago, we never picked the beagle up since then)

4. most recently, it was 104 F and the dogs were waiting to get out of the house, as the door opened instead of running out as usual, they turned to each other and fought

Can someone help please? re-homing would be the very last option. "

This is what I posted there. There was a return comment which makes me really worried about the situation. What it said was that I made a big mistake that I let the beagle bullied the labrador when they were younger and this will end badly.

I realized that this may be true but there really is no way to fix it?

Like I said b4, it sounds like the two dogsmay be fighting over the alpha sopt or head of the pack type status. One may not be clearly dominant over the other anymore and their rankings aren't being established. As I said, this is more common between two females. My advice would still be the same as I said above.

[cigwyllt]

That doesn't sound a particularly helpful comment. It was not wise to allow the beagle to treat the lab in that way without correction and disciplining her but I am sure that we have all made mistakes in handling/training our dogs and we need help to deal with the consequences, not simply to hear that those mistakes have caused problems.

This stood out to me

"4. most recently, it was 104 F and the dogs were waiting to get out of the house, as the door opened instead of running out as usual, they turned to each other and fought"

My two terriers do that often. They will be up on their hind legs heads back, teeth flashing but as soon as the door is open they run through and all the silly behaviour is forgotten.

It doesn't worry me when they do that because I know it is not going to end in blood and damage to anyone. Maybe your girls are just posturing like my two do but I really think you need an outside expert to tell you exactly what is going on.

[Youme Webark]

since the beagle is showing her submissiveness, the labrador would establish her alpha position?

is there anything I should or should not do to not mess this up?

[Todd]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

That doesn't sound a particularly helpful comment. It was not wise to allow the beagle to treat the lab in that way without correction and disciplining her but I am sure that we have all made mistakes in handling/training our dogs and we need help to deal with the consequences, not simply to hear that those mistakes have caused problems.

This stood out to me



My two terriers do that often. They will be up on their hind legs heads back, teeth flashing but as soon as the door is open they run through and all the silly behaviour is forgotten.

It doesn't worry me when they do that because I know it is not going to end in blood and damage to anyone. Maybe your girls are just posturing like my two do but I really think you need an outside expert to tell you exactly what is going on.

Where u referring to my comment when you said "that wasn't a particularly helpful comment" or hers? I'm not mad or anything just curious to see if should add anything that may be more helpful...

[Youme Webark]

thank you very much Todd and cigwyllt. I think I can sleep tonight now. I will take cigwyllt's advise on getting a professional right away first thing tomorrow and will look out for the quality as what said in the link Todd suggested.

I'm hoping they will suggest something along the same line as both of you and show me in person how to not screw this up. If this trainer turns out not good then I will be back here even more worried.

Originally Posted by Youme Webark

This is what I posted there. There was a return comment which makes me really worried about the situation. What it said was that I made a big mistake that I let the beagle bullied the labrador when they were younger and this will end badly.

Hi Todd, I think cigwyllt was talking about this comment that I have recieved in another forums.

PS. apologise if my English is confusing

[cigwyllt]

Noooooo Todd - I was referring to the comment that had been made on the other forum - your post wasn't there when I replied. Think we both posted at the same time. Sorry about the confusion.

Youme Webark - your English is excellent. I would not have known that English was not your first language.

It really does help to have someone to observe your dogs - when I took my two girls to a behaviourist I learned so much in the hour or so there, simple things that just clicked into place when she explained them to me.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

Noooooo Todd - I was referring to the comment that had been made on the other forum - your post wasn't there when I replied. Think we both posted at the same time. Sorry about the confusion.

Youme Webark - your English is excellent. I would not have known that English was not your first language.

It really does help to have someone to observe your dogs - when I took my two girls to a behaviourist I learned so much in the hour or so there, simple things that just clicked into place when she explained them to me.

OK just making sure. If you did make that comment toward me I was gonna have to track you down... Just kidding. Yea I think we did post at the same time lol.

I agree. Your english is wonderful! Better then a lot of Americans lol...

[cigwyllt]

Glad that's cleared up Todd - mind you, you would have to travel a long way to track me down LOL!

[Todd]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

Glad that's cleared up Todd - mind you, you would have to travel a long way to track me down LOL!

Where are you from? I do know how to work mapquest you know...