[malaika's mom]

I have 2 Border Collies both aged 6 years. First one came to us when she was 10 weeks old and we received the second when she was 10 months old. We are experiencing an increasing problem with them getting into fights causing serious physical harm to each other. Both have had training and are very obedient but we can't break the cycle of fights. Any ideas on what to try to stop or prevent this problem would be greatly appreciated.

[cigwyllt]

Are they spayed? If they are not it can sometimes help.

I don't have experience of collies but I know with Jack Russells fighting between two bitches can lead to death. I know of lots of people who have found that the only solution when two bitches turn on each other is to rehome one.

Most people I know who have two bitches also have a dog and that alone can be enough to prevent the aggression from becoming that bad. I doubt though that adding a dog to your pack would change the behaviour when they have already taken exception to each other.

[Todd]

This is more common between two dogs of the same sex like in this particular situation. They both sounds like they are probably dominant dogs and are possibly fighting over who is the "alpha-dog" or the pack leader/at the top of the social pyramid. Generally, members of a pack with soon learn to accept their positions in the pack, but in the case where two dogs are both equally dominant in nature, this can cause a major dispute/issue which isn't easily resolved. To resolve this problem, it will take a lot more work than if it was just one dominant dog and another dog not so dominant/challenging. You must train BOTH dogs to stop this behavior, which won't be easy for their positions will never be established/settles in their minds, but this is probably the only way to stop this, potentially destructive/fatal behavior. It is not always the best approach to treat both dogs as equals, for this causes disputes. I'd say you, the owner, should establish yourself as the "alpha" of the pack and make sure they understand that what you say goes and you do not wish for them to fight. Here is some info from online regarding training dominant dogs living with one another;

CANINE AGGRESSION: SIBLING RIVALRY
What is a dominance hierarchy and why is it important to dogs? Dogs are social animals whose evolutionary history makes them willing and able to live in groups. Group living enabled wolves to work together to obtain food, raise their young and defend their territory. It would be counterproductive for members of a group to fight with each other and risk injury. That would prevent them from working with the group. Therefore, dogs have a social structure in which each dog is either dominant (leader) or subordinate in its relationship with each other pack member. This is a "dominance hierarchy". The leader or "alpha" dog is the one that has first access to all the "critical" resources. These resources include food, resting places, mates, territory and favored possessions. Assertion of dominance by the alpha is generally communicated through facial expressions, body postures and actions. Fighting is rare, since as soon as the subordinate submits or defers to the alpha animal and the alpha gets its way, he or she gives up the challenge. My dogs have lived together for some time and now they are fighting. Why? Fights between dogs in the household are often about dominance or social status. Social status aggression most often occurs when dogs reach social maturity at 12-36 months of age. Fights will be about those resources that are considered important to dogs. Therefore fights may occur over treats, owner attention, greeting the owner upon return, sleeping positions near the owner, entering or exiting the home, high arousal situations such as fence running, or movement through tight spaces. These fights occur most often between dogs of near equal status and often, but not always, dogs of the same sex, and seem to be most severe between female dogs. I try to treat my dogs equally, but they still fight. What am I doing wrong? Trying to treat two dogs as equals will only serve to counter the natural tendency toward a hierarchy. The dog that is the more dominant in a relationship needs to be supported in its position and the more subordinate must be taught to accept the relationship. When you support or encourage the subordinate dog as it tries to gain access to resources such as your attention, the dominant dog may begin to challenge and fight, in an effort to keep the lower ranking dog in its “place". If you then discipline the dominant dog, or pull the dominant dog away, you have favored, supported and come to the aid of the subordinate dog. Both my dogs are the same age, and after a third, older dog died, they began to fight - why?

Conflicts may occur between dogs when the dominance status is ambiguous or when they are particularly close in rank. After the decline, illness or death of an older dog, fighting may begin in the remaining dogs even when one is clearly dominant. This is because the older dog may have been dominant to both dogs, and now they are trying to establish new positions. In any case the fighting can be severe and injurious. Although you should generally attempt to allow dogs to resolve their differences on their own you will need to intervene if there is the potential for injury. Under no circumstances should the dogs be allowed to "fight it out". However, you could be injured due to redirected aggressive attacks, or when you attempt to break up the fight (see below). My younger dog always deferred to the older dog, but now they fight. One scenario that can result in social aggression is when an older, previously dominant dog, is challenged by a younger, more domineering dog. This may happen as the older dog ages, or as the younger dog reaches behavioral maturity at 12 to 36 months. This is often clearly an attempt to alter the existing hierarchy. Sometimes the older dog will acquiesce and things are fine but at other times the owners do not want the change and intervene. In some situations, the older dog will not relinquish the dominant role even though it cannot physically compete with the younger dog. This can result in severe, injurious fights. How should I break up fighting if it occurs? This can be a dangerous situation for people and dogs alike. Owners usually try to reach for the collar of the fighting dogs, or if one is small, pick it up. This can result in severe owner injury if the fighting is very intense. If both are wearing leashes they can usually be pulled apart. If all else fails, you might be able to break up the fight with a water rifle, broom, or another distraction (such as pepper spray or a fire extinguisher). Reaching for the dog is usually the worst thing to do, as you could be injured (either accidentally or intentionally). When people intervene in dog fights, redirected aggression is possible. Aggression (growl, snarl or bite) can be redirected to a person, animal or object other than that which evoked the aggression. If during the course of a dog fight, you pick up one of the dogs, the other may continue to attack and direct it at you. What should I do when one of my dogs challenges another? Aggression between household dogs can be difficult to treat. You will need to identify the subordinate dog, and ensure that you are not encouraging the subordinate dog to challenge the more dominant. It is critical that you never come to the aid of the subordinate against the more dominant. If left alone, the dogs will often use posturing and threats to end encounters without injury. If one dog backs down, the problem may be resolved. However, when neither dog is willing to give up the dominant position (as in a young dog challenging an older dog in the home), fighting will usually result. A common owner error is the desire to make life "fair". This often results in owners allowing subordinate dog’s access to resources, such as attention, treats, toys, or entry into territory that they would not normally have. Usually the subordinate dog would not behave in a manner that would challenge the dominant when no one is around to "protect" it. If you encourage or protect the subordinate dog, it may be "tempted" to break the "rules", and the dominant dog may become aggressive to enforce the "rules". If you then punish the dominant dog for aggression, the subordinate dog learns it can engage in prohibited behavior while the owner is present. This is why, in many households, there is no fighting when the owners are gone. The subordinate is aware of the hierarchy, and does nothing to challenge the dominant dog, unless the owners are around to intervene. How can I treat this problem? Although the dominance relationship between the two dogs must be dealt with, the first step is for the owner to gain complete control over both dogs. As leader or alpha your presence and commands should be sufficient to prevent all dominance challenges between dogs and to intervene as needed when threats emerge. Control of each dog is achieved through the use of verbal commands, by leaving a leash and head halter attached for immediate control, and by withholding all rewards unless earned. Attention on demand not only encourages situations where one dog may challenge the other, but also allows your dogs to control you.

[Todd]

CONT...

Inattention on demand teaches the dogs that all rewards are provided only when you choose, and reduces or eliminates those situations where challenges might occur. Head halter with leash control and obedience-reward based training of each dog should first be done separately. With a head halter and remote leash on each dog you will have effective control, and a means of controlling and separating the dogs if needed. With control of the head and mouth, aggressive threats can be curtailed and either dog can be placed in a subordinate posture, by pulling up on the leash, closing the mouth, looking the dog in the eyes, or pulling the head sideways so that the dog's gaze is averted. Next, treatment must be designed to identify and support the dominant dog. In most cases this is the younger, larger, more physically capable dog. Often, this is also the aggressor. You must allow the dominant dog priority to go outside, to come in, or to receive food or owner attention and affection. If you are petting the dominant dog and the subordinate dog approaches, make it wait. Avoid all circumstances that elicit aggression. If the more dominant dog approaches or challenges the subordinate dog and the subordinate dog assumes a subordinate posture, the owners are not to intervene as long as the dominant dogs stop. If the dogs are likely to fight when you are away or at homecomings, separate the dogs whenever you are out, or are not available to supervise. On other occasions, neither dog is willing to be subordinate. This could be due to a challenge to the hierarchy as a younger dog matures, as an older dog becomes sick or aged, when a new dog is introduced into the home, or when one dog is not clearly dominant to the other. You should learn how to recognize canine body language and low level threats such as eye contact, snarls or low growls. Keep records of threats, attacks, or tension producing situations. An owner must have excellent control over both dogs in order to succeed. To facilitate treatment, decrease the chances of injuries and increase owner control, a remote leash can be left attached to one or both dogs. Often the best form of owner control is to fit and train each dog with a head halter, and to leave a leash and head halter on each dog when they are together (under the owner's supervision). Once you have gained sufficient control over both dogs, and have identified the more dominant, you will need to deal with the circumstances that might elicit aggression. Greetings should be low key, and both dogs should be ignored. Treats are avoided and rawhides or other delicious things are not given unless the dogs are separated or on leash. Movement through tight spaces is avoided or controlled. You must be present to ensure that the dominant dog gains preferential access to food, resting places, territory, owner attention and treats. Commands and rewards or the leash and halter can be used to ensure that the subordinate does not challenge, and that the dominant does not continue to show aggression once the subordinate submits. Getting the dogs together without incident can best be accomplished when the dogs are otherwise occupied and when a confrontation is unlikely, such as during walks or feeding. It is usually best to have two individuals to walk the dogs (each person controls one dog) and not to allow them to forge in front of one another. During feeding, keep the dogs at a distance, far enough apart that they do not show aggression. Slowly the dishes are moved closer together as long as the dogs do not react. The food serves as a reward in this situation. If the dogs react, the food bowls are moved further apart. When the owner is not home or supervising the dogs, the dogs are separated or crated. Basket muzzles could be left on each dog to increase safety while the dogs are together. They can also be used to "proof" the training, by putting the dogs together in situations that previously led to aggression. Drug therapy for one or both dogs may also be useful. Can social aggression always be corrected? At times aggression may persist despite owner control and intervention. In those cases alternate living arrangements for one of the animals may need to be made.

[Cait]

I dont know if they are spayed but u might want to look into that if they arent..I had a 2 female labs and neither one of them were spayed and when one came into heat the other was very very mean towards it

[Lara's mom]

Certain breeds are known for same sex aggression. I have two of those breeds: a female Border Collie and two Shorty JRT's, one of which is female and the other of which is male. It is generally not a good idea for either of these breeds to be housed with a member of the same sex of their breed. However, since you already have them, spaying them 'might' reduce the fighting.

[cigwyllt]

Over the weekend I came across someone with two six year old JR's who had been fighting seriously over the past year until one killed the other on Saturday. Both of them were neutered.

[Lara's mom]

I know of a similar tragedy that occurred with two male Jacks living together. The fighting escalated over a period of months until they had one terrible fight in which the owner was injured attempting to pull them apart and both dogs were seriously injured. One of them didn't make it. Neither of these two were neutered.

[leashedForLife]

Originally Posted by malaika's mom

I have 2 BCs both aged 6 years.
First @ 10-WO... 2nd @ 10-MO. We are experiencing an increasing problem with them getting into fights causing serious physical harm to each other. Both have had training and are very obedient but we can't break the cycle of fights.

i would simplify life and re-home one or the other.
being brutally honest, management inevitably fails - somebody, sometime will let both dogs in the same space, and all H*** will break loose.

spaying may not alter things a whit.
B-Mod may or may not reduce the violence.
also IMO - this is NOT a dominance issue, + is not resolved by humans somehow morphing into fake-dogs.
dogs R dogs - and they know that we are Not-Dogs.

DAP pump-spray + Rescue-Remedy WILL help reduce the tension somewhat, but the 2 will still have to be separated at all times unless leashed.
both DAP + Rescue-Remedy *MAY* also help to allow them to learn a new emotional response to each other...
but also there is a less than 50% success rate, IME. :--(
bitch-wars are very brutal, very passionate, and generally end badly.

i am so sorry.
--- terry

terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, IPDTA, TDF
*dogs R dogs, wolves R wolves, and primates R us.*

[Lara's mom]

I have to agree with leashedForLife. The chance of a tragedy happening are just too great. I would rehome one of them.

[malaika's mom]

Both the girls have been spayed. The first one never went through a heat cycle but the second one was in heat when we got her. Not sure if this plays a part in their actions or not.
Re-homing at this time is not an option. We would like to try and work through this problem without having to give one up. The best possible solution is to train them.
We have kept them seperated in different rooms the majority of the time. The fighting is worse when I am alone with them but improves if my husband is around. He did the training with the first dog and the second came to us with basic obedience completed by the first owner that had surrendered her back to the breeder. So both dogs had their training with males which is why I believe they don't respond to me as well.

[Lara's mom]

In order to ensure the safety of both of your dogs, you might seriously have to consider keeping them separated. It certainly won't be easy but, if you intend to keep both of them, it may be your only option.

[Yogi]

Unfortunately I have seen both sides of this though in my case it has never failed so the comment that it will inevitably fail is not in fact true. I took possession of a breeding female Papillon from a breeder who had this problem.
The bitches simply fought anytime they were around each other and more so when one or both were in season. Since taking in the one, she and one of mine started in. That was over a year ago, they no longer have issues. One was spayed the other not. In most packs you will find that the female is the alpha not the male. Females like males though do vie for status as lead and this will in most cases result in fighting. If these 2 have not been spayed this may be an option. But with patience and working it also can work out. Granted, the simplest solution is to re-home one of them but as that is not an option than stick to your guns and take what ever steps need to be taken to work it out.
Good Luck.

[OrangeDog]

I would strongly advise you hire a trainer to come to your home and work with your dogs... while it is not your fault it is a training issue. I live with 6 dogs and in all my years as a multiple dog owner I have only had a couple fights simply because fighting is NOT an option is my house. I have 4 bitches (only one of whom is spayed) and 2 intact males. My boys have NEVER faught even when the bitches are in season.

I would suggest you hire a trainer and until then keep them away from eachother.

When do they fight? does it involve food, toys, you? what seems to set them off.

There is a product called "Direct Stop" it is a 100% pet safe alternative to pepper spray in the event your dogs do fight. I have it in my home but have never had to use it. If I see or hear an issue starting all I need to say is "AAAPPP AAAPP" and they stop before it gets heated up any more.

[Todd]

If you do need to break up a fight, here is some helpful info I found online;

Where possible, you should not break up a dog fight on your own. Ideally you need two people, one focused on each dog. Rather than grabbing the dogs collar, you should grasp the hindlimbs, lifting both up so the dog is standing only on their front legs. They will be slightly off balance so you should be able to back the dogs away from each other. As you back up you should turn in a circle. This keeps the dog off balance and prevents them from reaching round to bite whoever is holding their legs. Before letting go of the dogs make certain they are in separate rooms or enclosed areas. Failing to do so may result in the fight restarting.

If you are on your own there are a couple of methods you can use to break up a fight. You can use the method above, but before grabbing hold of a dog you should get a slip leash, loop it round the abdomen of the more aggressive dog and pull the dogs, using the leash, to somewhere where you can securely tie the leash to keep the leashed dog in one place. Once secure move to the unleashed dog, grasp its hindlimbs and proceed as described above.

If you do not feel safe using this method you can try distracting the dogs in other ways. A short blast of water from a garden hose will often startle the dogs and cause them to separate. If they move to fight again, hose them down a second time. Some people report good success using an ABC type fire extinguisher near to the dogs. The noise and foam startle the dogs sufficiently to stop the fight, allowing them to be moved away from each other. One thing you should never do is use anything that will cause pain (e.g. a shock collar). Causing pain will likely increase the aggression and severity of the fight.

[Youme Webark]

I have the same problem with my dogs too. I was about to put up a thread but I thought it may be useful to discuss it here. I hope you don't mind

I have a beagle (3 1/2 yr-old, 10kg) and a lab (3 yr-old, 25kg), both are femail and sprayed. The beagle has always been a bit agressive. The lab had been very submissive toward the beagle until recently. About a year ago they had their first fight and a couple more after that. These fights were from the present of other dogs near their territory on the other side of the fence. But this last two weeks they fought 3 times already and there was no other dog around. One thing is that it was 40 degree celcius when I was letting them out for an evening walk they were very anxious and tried to get out at the same time but when the door was wide open they turned to each other and started fighting.

Re-homing is not an option also.

I don't know if this is relevant. The beagle has been well socialized with other animals and people since young age. The beagle would jump on any stranger and lick their faces. The lab on the other hand has never been around other animals but no problem with people.

I read Todd's comment about having to establish the heirachy. How should I started?

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Youme Webark

I have the same problem with my dogs too. I was about to put up a thread but I thought it may be useful to discuss it here. I hope you don't mind

I have a beagle (3 1/2 yr-old, 10kg) and a lab (3 yr-old, 25kg), both are femail and sprayed. The beagle has always been a bit agressive. The lab had been very submissive toward the beagle until recently. About a year ago they had their first fight and a couple more after that. These fights were from the present of other dogs near their territory on the other side of the fence. But this last two weeks they fought 3 times already and there was no other dog around. One thing is that it was 40 degree celcius when I was letting them out for an evening walk they were very anxious and tried to get out at the same time but when the door was wide open they turned to each other and started fighting.

Re-homing is not an option also.

I don't know if this is relevant. The beagle has been well socialized with other animals and people since young age. The beagle would jump on any stranger and lick their faces. The lab on the other hand has never been around other animals but no problem with people.

I read Todd's comment about having to establish the heirachy. How should I started?

When you first mentioned the fighting started over another dog near their terriotry it hit me. This is actually redirected aggression. because the other dog was in their territory one of them took it out on the other dog in a sense. No you are saying that the other dog is not around in their territory, however are you sure it still doesn't come around from time to time and leave a scent in the area? If so, here some info I dug up online about approaching a redirected aggression problem;

Redirected aggression occurs when a dog that is aggressively motivated redirects the aggression from the source to another. For example, a dog that is barking at the door may redirect his aggression onto an owner that is pulling him back or another dog in the same room. This may be due to territorial issues. Dominant dogs often redirect onto subordinates.

*You said the lab is a submissive dog right? If so, this would apply as you can see in the sentence I bolded.

It's is hard to can these types of aggression because a lot of it is instinct but there are several things you need to do to take hold of this situation. First of all, establish yourself as the pack leader or alpha in the household. This way the dogs will be more respectful of your commands and will be much more successful during the training process. Here's a link on becoming the alpha. Never use the alpha role technique though because this is not a technique that should be used on a potentially aggressive dog;

Establishing Yourself as Pack Leader

Once and during this stage, you need to try and stop the fighting between the two. Try to break up the situation before they begin fighting if you can. If they eye one another you can generally tell what they're going to do. If they begin to fight give a firm command to "leave it"! (in a low tone of voice). This is where the alpha factor comes in because they should follow your command after a lot of practicing and training. If they don't stop try getting an air horn and blowing it while their fighting. This may surprise them and they may stop fighting long enough for you to safely break things up. You could also use a squirt gun with water in it to break it up. You want them to understand that it is NOT OK for them to be fighting that way. Don't forget the positive reinforcement though. When they follow your commands, reward them with plenty of praise and a toy or treat reward. Just be careful when giving treats while they're right by one another because that can cause possessive aggression which is very common.

Hopefully I was of some help. Good luck!

[Youme Webark]

thank you very much Todd, this should help

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Youme Webark

thank you very much Todd, this should help

Sure, no problem. Once again. Good luck! I'm sure everything will turn out alright. Just remember to remain patient and consistent.

[cigwyllt]

The info from Todd is good IF you can carry it through but you really should be aware that often the best trainers in the world can not solve the problem when two bitches take it into their heads that they can not live together. Please be very very careful and take nothing for granted. Bitches can, and will, fight to the death if they see a need.