[Todd]

Originally Posted by OrangeDog

Yes! My mother who is a very quiet, calm, almost affraid to scold a dog was instructed by a trainer years back to do this with her little terrier. She would rock the dog on it's side using no force or violience and still ended up bitten many times. She then found another trainer who was horrified that anybody would use this method and was able to train the dog without trouble.

Yes. Some dogs just don't do well with certain training methods. As I said, all dogs are different. The tricky part I guess is the owner of the dog realizing when a method doesn't work or makes thing worse. The owner needs to recognize results of a training method and alter their method from there depending on how the dog reacts.

[Lara's mom]

I've seen enough of this method to know that I'd NEVER use it on one of mine.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

I've seen enough of this method to know that I'd NEVER use it on one of mine.

Would your dog bite you/get aggressive or do you have a timid dog that may associate the method with fearfulness?

[Lara's mom]

Mine are all pretty happy-go-lucky. Lara is the most timid of the lot and she will run to me to be picked up if something scares her. The only thing Bailey is afraid of is thunder and fireworks. Lance doesn't seem to be afraid of anything. None of them are even one iota aggressive.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

Mine are all pretty happy-go-lucky. Lara is the most timid of the lot and she will run to me to be picked up if something scares her. The only thing Bailey is afraid of is thunder and fireworks. Lance doesn't seem to be afraid of anything. None of them are even one iota aggressive.

Neither is my dog. She's your classic example of a happy-go-lucky dog. She's the type of dog that has to greet EVERYONE who come to the door. Hell, if Freddy Kruger rang the door bell she's probably let him right in and greet him at the front door

[Lara's mom]

I always say that if a robber broke in, my lot would show them where mommy hides all of our treasures!!!

Anyway, getting back to the original question which was a dog who peed on people, how about trying a pair of that "doggy underwear?" The dog may look silly but the member in question is more likely to retain friends at the dog park.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

I always say that if a robber broke in, my lot would show them where mommy hides all of our treasures!!!

Anyway, getting back to the original question which was a dog who peed on people, how about trying a pair of that "doggy underwear?" The dog may look silly but the member in question is more likely to retain friends at the dog park.

Yea that would look a little silly

[Lara's mom]

Perhaps but, it would keep a lot of human legs dry and a lot of human tempers silenced.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

Perhaps but, it would keep a lot of human legs dry and a lot of human tempers silenced.

Yes, however remember that would only cover up the problem not solve it. It may be something to look into during the training process though.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Todd

Well, as I said before, many people use this method improperly. This method is not always effective and can make things worse like in this case. It is an option though, and I believe it can be successful in some cases. Again, depends on the temperament of the dog and how training previously goes. In this case, they should have stopped the method when the dogs started to get worse. The needed to have recognized this. Not every method works for all dogs because all dogs are different and different methods are necessary to accommodate the specific situation/temprement of dog.

Toded, I think what you are missing is that people like myself saw this technique years ago and it was abandoned on the whole because simply put, it really does not work. Again, associating domesticated dogs with wild wolves with regards to what is instinctive and what is instinctive where a dog has no recollection why turned out to be the key issue with this technique. Dogs do not associate this technique as they are dogs, not wolves. A bitch will bite on its pups mouth if the pup becomes unruly it does not force the dog onto its back and hold it down just because wolves did it, it only occasionally happens because the pup is already rolling onto its back out of natural submission. I have never used the technique and have no problems with handling dogs and being assertive to the point that they know who the alpha is. In addition, 85% of my dogs have come to me as adult rescues with issues. Aggression, fear aggression, natural fear and timidness. Not one of those dogs have I had to do anything like this to. Having an obedient dog does not mean one that is trained to the point it does tricks just to amuse you. Simplify the rules of training to what is the key,recall, socialization with people and other dogs and general control. Do this and less emphasis on all this training that everyone is so high on the hill about but in most cases does not even really know anything about. I have said it for years and it is worth repeating....any idiot can write a book, but the fool is the one who buys, reads and takes it as gospel. Fact is majority of books authored on dogs ie: breeds, training etc are not the people themselves. These are people who talk to others and decipher their information and write a book. Granted, more so in dog breeds. You might be surprised the number of people who have written about breeds of dogs that in fact never owned the breed. A friend and long time Miniature Pinscher breeder herself was a contributor to 2 such books. In most cases, those that want to learn, need to study their own dogs and actually pay attention. Dogs do tell us things, unfortunately most people just do not understand or show the patience to learn. Granted, spend as much time as I have and with as many dogs as I have had it is easy....But I can assure you...do it this way and the rewards far exceed anything you get from watching a tv show trainer or reading what somebody says is the proper way. Because when it is all said and done, there is no right way only the way that works for you and YOUR dog not someone elses as like people, each dog is different.
I learned years ago to not offer advice based on what others told me, what I read or saw on tv and for one primary reason...it only takes giving advice once and have it go wrong and realizing that the advice you gave made things worse or caused someone harm all based not on actual experience but just repeating what I saw on tv or read in a book and failing to note just that. That it is not from my own experience but what I saw on tv or read somewhere. It is always advisable to weigh out the advice we give and to sub it with a notation where this information is coming from so as to not endorse what one really has no proof works or does not work. This way we are off the hook as far as leaving the option open to the asker, OP noting just that, it is something we saw ore read but have not actually used ourselves so therefore cannot attest that it in fact works but only based on what others have said.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Toded, I think what you are missing is that people like myself saw this technique years ago and it was abandoned on the whole because simply put, it really does not work. Again, associating domesticated dogs with wild wolves with regards to what is instinctive and what is instinctive where a dog has no recollection why turned out to be the key issue with this technique. Dogs do not associate this technique as they are dogs, not wolves. A bitch will bite on its pups mouth if the pup becomes unruly it does not force the dog onto its back and hold it down just because wolves did it, it only occasionally happens because the pup is already rolling onto its back out of natural submission. I have never used the technique and have no problems with handling dogs and being assertive to the point that they know who the alpha is. In addition, 85% of my dogs have come to me as adult rescues with issues. Aggression, fear aggression, natural fear and timidness. Not one of those dogs have I had to do anything like this to. Having an obedient dog does not mean one that is trained to the point it does tricks just to amuse you. Simplify the rules of training to what is the key,recall, socialization with people and other dogs and general control. Do this and less emphasis on all this training that everyone is so high on the hill about but in most cases does not even really know anything about. I have said it for years and it is worth repeating....any idiot can write a book, but the fool is the one who buys, reads and takes it as gospel. Fact is majority of books authored on dogs ie: breeds, training etc are not the people themselves. These are people who talk to others and decipher their information and write a book. Granted, more so in dog breeds. You might be surprised the number of people who have written about breeds of dogs that in fact never owned the breed. A friend and long time Miniature Pinscher breeder herself was a contributor to 2 such books. In most cases, those that want to learn, need to study their own dogs and actually pay attention. Dogs do tell us things, unfortunately most people just do not understand or show the patience to learn. Granted, spend as much time as I have and with as many dogs as I have had it is easy....But I can assure you...do it this way and the rewards far exceed anything you get from watching a tv show trainer or reading what somebody says is the proper way. Because when it is all said and done, there is no right way only the way that works for you and YOUR dog not someone elses as like people, each dog is different.
I learned years ago to not offer advice based on what others told me, what I read or saw on tv and for one primary reason...it only takes giving advice once and have it go wrong and realizing that the advice you gave made things worse or caused someone harm all based not on actual experience but just repeating what I saw on tv or read in a book and failing to note just that. That it is not from my own experience but what I saw on tv or read somewhere. It is always advisable to weigh out the advice we give and to sub it with a notation where this information is coming from so as to not endorse what one really has no proof works or does not work. This way we are off the hook as far as leaving the option open to the asker, OP noting just that, it is something we saw ore read but have not actually used ourselves so therefore cannot attest that it in fact works but only based on what others have said.

OK Thanks. I will keep this in mind next time a see a mother and her pups. Guess I have never really been around that kind of pack much.

I def. agree with what you said about not every method of training working for every dog. As you said, all dogs are different and require different approaches.

I'm def. going to look into this whole alpha role deal. I'm not a dog trainer so I'm just going on what I've read/heard. You have breed dogs and been around packs for many years so you know a lot more than I do about pack mentality in domesticated dogs. I have just heard the alpha roll method from a lot of people. I never did any deep research on it. Again though, keep in mind that that isn't to say the alpha role method or even some sort of variation of it wouldn't be successful for some dogs. I know some owners who have utilized that method because of aggressiveness and it seemed to do the trick. The dogs respects them but is by no means fearful of them. Again, I really think it has to do with the individual case and dog and what you've tried first. I can personally tell you that I've never used this method on my dog, but then again I've never really had a big alpha problem with her. In the wild wolves would do this alpha role like you said, but domestic dogs may do it differently, however with the same idea which is to assert dominance. I agree that the alpha role method should probably be a last resort or something to consider after other methods of training are fully attempted. If all else fails, which it shouldn't if you're consistent and accurate with training, the alpha role is something to try. Key word is try. If it's making things worse or not working at all stop doing it. The key is recognition. As we both agree on, all dogs are different and different methods do and do not work for individual dogs. The alpha role is something I'll have to look into more. I'm still not 100% against it, however I really appreciate you guys enlightening me on the subject because before the only reason I've recommended it is because that's what I've read and heard from a few friends. Guess it is outdated, however I'm someone who feeds raw so I obviously think dogs and wolves are more closely related than some of you might. This is why I believe that this method makes sense because it is what a mother wolf would do in the wild. I'll do some deeper research. However, currently I feel that it is something to try if other methods fail. The key is knowing your dog and recognizing when a method is not turning out as good as it should or if it makes things worse. Dog, like people, are all different and require different training methods to customary accommodate them.

Update: I have done A LOT of research on the ever so controvercial alpha roll over and I have, on one hand, come to the conclusion that is if fact a bad idea and very outdated, however I still feel this applies to dog and wolf packs. I really want to thank you guys for bringing this up because I really did learn a lot of new information regarding this method today. I have probably looked at over 15 different articles and videos tonight on the alpha role and have learned a lot. I have learned that when dogs get into the submissive position (even wolves in the wild in many cases) they are not forced into the position but rather voluntarily roll on their backs in submission. However, although the traditional alpha roll may not be the most accurate/corresponding method, I believe that in litters of pups mother dogs do seem to assert their dominance over their pups. As Yogi said, they may bite the pup in the mouth. This is obviously not an option for you the dog owner, however I believe that the alpha roll may have been designed as the closest thing a human being can do to mimick what a mother dog would do to an unruly pup. So in that regard, the method would probably be fairly uneffective but I believe that it may be somewhat effective as a last resort at least in some dogs. Again, all dogs are different and respond differently to different training methods. So again, I'm kind of in the middle here. I def. agree that you should try all other methods first, however I believe there is some effectiveness if correclty utilizing the alpha roll in certain dogs, but by NO means all or even most for that matter. It's a controversial topic so obviously it's going to be very difficult to prove or disprove. It's just one of those things that's hit or miss. It may work for a few dogs but not for others. Not the best method but a method nevertheless.

In this situation though the dog is peeing on other people is interfering with the dogs life as far as attending the dog park goes. The dog is obviously more along the lines of a dominant dog. I would def. try other methods first but the aplha roll is something to try if all else fails. Some dogs a darn stubborb. This situation isn't simply establishing yourself as the alpha for general training it's so the dog's able to continue going to the park and for the owner to be able to enjoy herself as well. The alpha role again is not for every dog. In most cases it's not for many dogs but it's something to try as a last resort I'd say nevertheless.
Here's a vid of someone who does NOT believe the alpha roll is effective;

YouTube- Dog Training - The Alpha Rollover

YouTube- Dog Training - The Alpha Rollover

[Yogi]

In lieu of biting the mouth, as the dam does with the pup or holding her mouth on the pups muzzle I actually grab hold of the muzzle and hold it for awhile accomplishing the same thing.
Pups when reprimanded by the dam will instinctively roll over when the dam will "mouth" them. No particular place each time can be a different area but the submission is a sign of respect in dogs for the senior or elder or parent dog.
A vet in California discovered some years ago that with aggressive dogs that were prone to bite, removing the K9's from the dogs mouth nearly always cured the situation as the dog generally lost its will to bite. Yet was able to eat etc fine. Thus the dogs became less aggressive and more playful.
There are many options out there that in fact work without putting a dog forcibly on its back to assert your dominance over it.
Some times it takes no more than being more assertive than your dog for it to realize that you are the alpha. My Shep/Husky would roll over nearly every time I approached her. Laying on her back yet she would not do that for anyone else. It came down to the fact that I as the one who praised but also reprimanded her when she did wrong. Though she played daily with my son's.

[Lara's mom]

I had never heard that removing the canine teeth had an effect on a dogs willingness to bite. Thank you for this very interesting information. In certain cases where the usual methods have been tried and have failed, this could possibly mean the difference as to whether a dog would or would not be deemed adoptable. I always learn something new from you!!!

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

I had never heard that removing the canine teeth had an effect on a dogs willingness to bite. Thank you for this very interesting information. In certain cases where the usual methods have been tried and have failed, this could possibly mean the difference as to whether a dog would or would not be deemed adoptable. I always learn something new from you!!!

It was a couple years back that I heard then read the account of this happening. The vets (there were two of them) had wondered about this and if in fact it would alter the dogs behavior. If I remember correctly it stemmed from what they felt was unfortunate putting down of dogs do to biting and bite aggressive behavior. I guess it came down to one of those, lets see if this will work idea's and according to their findings based on the dogs they did this too, a large percentage of them lost the will to bite. When you think about it, it actually makes some sense. It would be like carrying a gun for protection and never having it loaded. If the time came, you would know you could only bluff but that would be all you could do.

[Susan]

Everyone-
Thanks again for all your input. I certainly did not mean to start an argument. This is the first time I have posted a question in any forum, so I feel kind of bad that an argument ensued, but maybe that is the way these things work.
Eli has not peed on anyone in the past few days. He only does it at the dog park. I find it hard to think of him as a dominant dog, though, because until about 6 weeks ago when this started, he has always been very laid back, never been in a fight, LOVES all the dogs he meets, and the people, and has never brought out the need to be dominant in another dog at the park. It has been obvious that the other male dogs do not see him as dominant, or as a threat. I guess maybe it is an age thing, as he is a little over 2.5 yrs old now, I think, as best I can know from getting him from the pound. I have had him a little over a year now. He is obviously very intelligent, but stubborn and willful. He does not seem to be motivated by praise or affection. Only treats, and I do not believe in taking treats to the dog park, as he was attacked and bitten a few weeks ago by a dog who attacked him when a lady was trying to give Eli a treat. (The peeing started before this incident). I worked tonight on teaching him the "settle" command, to lie on his side stretched out on command (with treats initially), and he is very smart. Some people at the dog park use this as a time out position, as it is obviously a submissive postition.
Teaching him to do it on command, I thought, might be a way to use time-outs when his behaviour is out of line, which is not very often at all, except for this new peeing, which is really bad, but he only does it occasionally. I am trying to walk him around the outskirts of the dog park before we go in, to try to get most of his peeing done before we enter. I also found a great website based on the training philosophy "Nothing in life is free", which I like. I watch both Cesar and Victoria, and learn a lot from both of them. I like Cesar's approach of communicating calm assurance to your dog, so they will feel safe with you and see you as the pack leader. There is nothing violent that I have seen in his methods, at least on TV, and I am like a lot of his clients who tend to spoil their dogs, and let them run the household. I am working on that, but have a way to go, however, I think I can do it with Eli, as he definately needs it more than my last dog did. Eli is an extremely friendly dog, and I am confident he would not bite, even if I were to employ an alpha rollover, but I don't intend to, and once again, that is not exactly how I interpreted Todd's first response. As I have been lax in doing any training with him other than a basic obedience class at Petsmart, I think my first step is to master the walk, as we never walk on leash other than just from the car to the dogpark gate, and then just commit more time to establishing myself as pack leader. I believe there is a difference between treating a dog as a wolf, and treating him as a social pack animal who needs a leader, or at least needs to know his place in the hierarchy. I appreciate all of your input, and it definately gave me some ideas, and made me realize how much work I need to do. If it means the next time he pees on someone, then he immediately gets leashed and we leave the dog park, I think he is smart enought to eventually put two and two together if it happens enough, and I am consistent. thanks again,I will keep you posted on how he is doing.-Susan and Elias

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Susan

Everyone-
Thanks again for all your input. I certainly did not mean to start an argument. This is the first time I have posted a question in any forum, so I feel kind of bad that an argument ensued, but maybe that is the way these things work.
Eli has not peed on anyone in the past few days. He only does it at the dog park. I find it hard to think of him as a dominant dog, though, because until about 6 weeks ago when this started, he has always been very laid back, never been in a fight, LOVES all the dogs he meets, and the people, and has never brought out the need to be dominant in another dog at the park. It has been obvious that the other male dogs do not see him as dominant, or as a threat. I guess maybe it is an age thing, as he is a little over 2.5 yrs old now, I think, as best I can know from getting him from the pound. I have had him a little over a year now. He is obviously very intelligent, but stubborn and willful. He does not seem to be motivated by praise or affection. Only treats, and I do not believe in taking treats to the dog park, as he was attacked and bitten a few weeks ago by a dog who attacked him when a lady was trying to give Eli a treat. (The peeing started before this incident). I worked tonight on teaching him the "settle" command, to lie on his side stretched out on command (with treats initially), and he is very smart. Some people at the dog park use this as a time out position, as it is obviously a submissive position.
Teaching him to do it on command, I thought, might be a way to use time-outs when his behavior is out of line, which is not very often at all, except for this new peeing, which is really bad, but he only does it occasionally. I am trying to walk him around the outskirts of the dog park before we go in, to try to get most of his peeing done before we enter. I also found a great website based on the training philosophy "Nothing in life is free", which I like. I watch both Cesar and Victoria, and learn a lot from both of them. I like Cesar's approach of communicating calm assurance to your dog, so they will feel safe with you and see you as the pack leader. There is nothing violent that I have seen in his methods, at least on TV, and I am like a lot of his clients who tend to spoil their dogs, and let them run the household. I am working on that, but have a way to go, however, I think I can do it with Eli, as he definately needs it more than my last dog did. Eli is an extremely friendly dog, and I am confident he would not bite, even if I were to employ an alpha rollover, but I don't intend to, and once again, that is not exactly how I interpreted Todd's first response. As I have been lax in doing any training with him other than a basic obedience class at Petsmart, I think my first step is to master the walk, as we never walk on leash other than just from the car to the dogpark gate, and then just commit more time to establishing myself as pack leader. I believe there is a difference between treating a dog as a wolf, and treating him as a social pack animal who needs a leader, or at least needs to know his place in the hierarchy. I appreciate all of your input, and it definately gave me some ideas, and made me realize how much work I need to do. If it means the next time he pees on someone, then he immediately gets leashed and we leave the dog park, I think he is smart enought to eventually put two and two together if it happens enough, and I am consistent. thanks again,I will keep you posted on how he is doing.-Susan and Elias

Lucky is the same way with treats at the dog park. Doesn't turn out too well. This is possessive aggression which can be another sign of dominance. I'd recommend just leaving the treats at home when around other dogs because it's hard to break this habit because it's instinctual. In the wild a wolf would have to fight to keep what it had because of potential competition.

In my opinion when trying to assert yourself as the alpha and training otherwise balance is the key. Do what works for YOUR dog. Sometimes it's trial and error. Good Luck!

[Lara's mom]

Don't worry about starting an "argument." We consider them discussions and there are no hard feelings! Personally, I've learned so much by following the various discussions and sticking in "my two cents worth." I hope we haven't put you off and that you'll stay and join in!!!

[kiki]

Hi Susan,

I'm not sure if you're still participating in this forum, though if so I'm wondering if you ever solved your dog's peeing issue-- ack, my dog Stanley suddenly started displaying similar behavior at the dog park and its MORTIFYING. Searching online I've read through a few posts about this issue and much speculation and suggestions, though no actually 'this worked' advice... a bit disconcerting. So please do let us know if you discovered a solution and how Eli is doing. Thanks!! K

[CorkyMax]

I don't think Susan will see your post --She is still a member but has not been active since posting about this problem. (3/13/2010) You might be able to 'catch' her attention by clicking on her name (post # 35) which will take you to her profile page---Click on Contact Information and click on the email one and send her an email message.