[Susan]

I rescued a dog last year, Feb 10, 2009 from the pound. He was emaciated and infested with demodex mites when I got him, He was neutered before I brought him home. He is a good dog, extremely friendly to all people, and LOVES other dogs. I got him last Feb, and started taking him to the off leash dog park in April 09. He has been GREAT. He has always been laid back, non dominant, does not bring out the dominance in other male dogs, has lots of girlfrinds and male playmates, and we go usually 5 days a week. He has been VERY popular, and everyone has made us feel very welcome. It has been a great socializing experiece for me as well, as I was normally a bit of a loner. I don't want to have to stop going! About 6 weeks ago, he suddenly casually lifted his leg and peed on a guy I was talking to. He did it again a couple of days later to a woman. a week or so went by with no problems, then he peed on the same woman again. After about another week with no problems, he peed on another woman. These have all been my aquaintances that I walk the loop and talk to, and mostly people whose dogs are his favorite playmates. As I said, he is always been non dominant, laid back, very little humping, etc. Lately, I have also noticed he is seeming to become a little more dominant, and is trying to hump more male dogs at the dog park.
I feel that he is going through a VERY critical time, and I need to nip these behaviors in the bud right now, but don't know how. I love the fact that whenever there has been any kind of fracas or fight at the park, he removes himself, or does not run towards it, like many dogs. I don't know his exact breed, but he has a long shaggy black coat with some white on chest and toes, very plumed over- the- back tail, NO blue or black on tongue, looks a lot like his girlfriend the purebred Samoyd, except the wrong color. Some mixture of Northern breed I am guessing with possibly some Border Collie. Nothing has happened to account for this sudden change that I can think of. I need help! Did I mention he is a very stubborn willful dog, (like northern breeds), not really motivated by praise or affection, not really interested in pleasing me, although he does seem to have some separation anxiety. He is currently overweight at 85 lbs, should be around 70-75, but was emaciated when I got him. He is on a diet-we are working on the weight. Please help! I don't want to lose my new friends I have made at the dog park, or get kicked out, and Eli HAS to play with other dogs-unlike my last dog, who was just an obsessive swimmer. Please give me some guidance on what to do.....

[Todd]

First of all, I'm really glad you adopted him!

It is pretty normal for him to start humping other dogs a bit more. It has little to do with sexuality, but had more to do with dominance. He may not be a dominant dog, however this is normal behavior in any dog in a social situation/atmosphere with other dogs. Now that he's been going to the dog park for awhile, he is becoming more and more comfortable which is a good thing. Instinctually there will be a "ranking system" at the dog park between the dogs just like that of a pack of wolves in the wild. At the top of the list are the dominant dogs and the submissive dogs are at the bottom. Every other dog fills in between and humping a way of showing dominance over the other dog, therefore establishing the initiating dog higher up in the pack if you will.

You obviously want to make it clear that it is unacceptable for your dog to try and establish dominance over a human being. He is peeing on people because of several reasons. One, he could be trying to assert his dominance, and two he could be passing on his scent, just like he would pee on a fire hydrant. This way we've got ourselves a walking/moving fire hydrant so his scent will travel all over the park! Either way, you obviously want to train him to nip this habit. You first want to make sure he realizes that you are the alpha member of the household and that what you say goes. This will make training a whole lot easier. Here are some tips on asserting yourself as the alpha;

Secrets to Becoming the Alpha Male

Now, as I said earlier there are two possible reasons as to why he is peeing on people. Has he peed on other dogs yet? He may be asserting dominance, so in this case you would want to give him a firm verbal correction and hold him firmly but carefully down on the grass for a few moments. Have the other dog owners do this themselves if they're up for it. Don't forget to use positive reinforcement though for this is very important. Whenever he looks like he may be attempting to pee on someone and you call him off and he listens, reward him with a treat and a load of praise! Now, this method may also handle this issue if he is peeing on people so they pass on his scent but if you know this is why he's really doing it then you could just catch him in the act, give him a firm voice correction, and maybe even assistance from a spray bottle or noise maker if necessary. Don't forget the positive reinforcement though for positive behavior and compliance. You may want to look into clicker training. regardless of the cause, the easiest way to go is the first method I gave you. If anything, it will solve the peeing problem and further your establishment as the alpha of the household at the same time.

Good Luck!

[Susan]

Todd-

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such depth to my problem. I really appreciate it! To answer your question, yesterday was the first time I thought maybe he peed on another dog, but it was by the fence, and I'm not sure if he did it deliberately, or if the tiny dog just ran up under him at the wrong time! My guess had been that he was peeing on these people because they were all my dog park friends, and mostly the owners of his dog playmates, and that he was trying to "claim" them as his own. I'm not sure if that is the same basic thing as asserting dominance, but I'm wondering if that is also a possible reason. I looked at the link. Interesting comparison, but helpful! I have Cesar's DVDs, and maybe I need to watch them again, as well. I really HAD wanted to do nothing but positive training with Eli, but he may be too thickheaded and willful for JUST positive training. I DO have a bad habit of spoiling my dogs, as I live alone, and they are my companion, friend, etc, and the only other member of my household other than my cat.
I did just what you said this last time he peed on the woman, I grabbed him, and made him lay down on his side, and held him down, and asked her to stand kind of over him, or at least directly in front of his head. After a few minutes, I let him up, but he knew I was not happy. Thanks again for your reply and advice. I posted some before and after pictures of him a few minutes ago-2 at the pound, and 2 after he had gotten his fur back and was free of mites and had put on some weight!-Susan

[Lara's mom]

Don't give your dog the chance to pee on anyone. When you meet someone in the park that you want to speak to, keep your dog on a very short leash so he can't get close enough to pee on anybody.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

Don't give your dog the chance to pee on anyone. When you meet someone in the park that you want to speak to, keep your dog on a very short leash so he can't get close enough to pee on anybody.

Well that may not be the answer. First of all, he's at the park park so he's off the lease. You want to train him not to do this. Just keeping him on leash and doing no other training is more avoiding the problem rather than solving it.

[Susan]

Lara's Mom-thanks for replying to my problem, but I'm afraid Todd is right. We are at the off -leash dog park, and we usually stay for 2-3 hours. Yesterday was 4! I am constantly walking the loop with other people while our dogs play. sometimes we walk, and sometimes we stand around while they play, but I am always with someone. Plus, it causes problems at an off -leash dog park when people have their dogs on leashes, as the other dogs don't understand, and constantly run up and try to play with the dog, and the leash gets tangles, and it is not feasible. There is an entire park surrounding the dog park if people want to walk their dogs on a leash, but eli would get hardly any exercise at all that way, as I cannot walk very fast, and cannot jog. I am disabled. He is highly sociable with other dogs, just loves them, unlike my last dog, and needs to be able to play off leash with them. I just don't understand why we have been going since last April with NO problems, and he suddenly starts this! I am going to review all my Cesar DVD's and I found another excellent website on being the alpha, who also advocates Cesar's methods. Thanks again to both of you for replying!

[OrangeDog]

There is a GREAT book called "Leader of the Pack" by Nancy Baer written in 1996. It uses all NON VIOLENT methods unlike the C. Milan.

I would NEVER use the alpha roll method that Todd mentioned (no offence todd but that has not been used since the 60's or 70's). By alpha rolling you are litteraly putting the fear of death in your dog... it is a direct "death threat" as dogs would never do this to eachother unless they are about to KILL. Dogs may roll onto their backs to show their submission to other dogs but a dog will never roll and pin another dog unless he is about to kill him.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by OrangeDog

There is a GREAT book called "Leader of the Pack" by Nancy Baer written in 1996. It uses all NON VIOLENT methods unlike the C. Milan.

I would NEVER use the alpha roll method that Todd mentioned (no offence todd but that has not been used since the 60's or 70's). By alpha rolling you are litteraly putting the fear of death in your dog... it is a direct "death threat" as dogs would never do this to each other unless they are about to KILL. Dogs may roll onto their backs to show their submission to other dogs but a dog will never roll and pin another dog unless he is about to kill him.

This is very true. Odd how all these trainers over the years have found so many new ways to supposedly train dogs only to find that many times they are doing nothing but copying old works and techniques that have been found to be false or not correct for training dogs. Wolves are not dogs and dogs are not wolves. The techniques may seem to be similar but what you see in the wild in fact rarely is workable when dealing with dogs. Since one is wild and the other domesticated.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

This is very true. Odd how all these trainers over the years have found so many new ways to supposedly train dogs only to find that many times they are doing nothing but copying old works and techniques that have been found to be false or not correct for training dogs. Wolves are not dogs and dogs are not wolves. The techniques may seem to be similar but what you see in the wild in fact rarely is workable when dealing with dogs. Since one is wild and the other domesticated.

I wouldn't consider the alpha role violent by any means. You are reinforcing your alpha position in the pack. An alpha role is not violent and I feel it is effective with hard headed dogs where other methods fail. It is by no means a "death threat". In the wild, mother wolves would do this to their pups if they misbehaved. The same goes for mother dogs and her pups. I have seen this type of behavior among dogs plenty of times and I wouldn't go nearly as far as to call them direct "death threats".

[OrangeDog]

in all my years as a groomer, doggie daycare manager, multiple dog owner and breeder I have never once seen a dog "alpha roll" another dog... maybe Wolves do it but dogs are not wolves as Yogi also said... they are domesticated dogs. Studies have shown that most owners get bitten by their own dogs when performing this outdated training practice and that it causes a dog to FEAR his owner not respect them.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by OrangeDog

in all my years as a groomer, doggie daycare manager, multiple dog owner and breeder I have never once seen a dog "alpha roll" another dog... maybe Wolves do it but dogs are not wolves as Yogi also said... they are domesticated dogs. Studies have shown that most owners get bitten by their own dogs when performing this outdated training practice and that it causes a dog to FEAR his owner not respect them.

I'd have to respectfully disagree. I'm no expert but I believe that the alpha role can be successful if done properly. Don't get me wrong, I've seen some people get very violent/physical with it. That is NOT the purpose of this method. It's abuse of the method that I feel creates problems. If done firmly, but not in an angry/aggressive state, I believe that I can be successful in stubborn dogs in particular. As long as this is NOT done violently and there is also plenty of positive reinforcement involved in training I don't think this would cause the dog to fear its owner. again, as long as the method is not abused which I've seen done on a number of times.

I personally have seen dogs do a version of the alpha role. Have you ever seen a dog "pin" another down and stand there for a moment? That is what I would consider a version of an alpha role. I'm not saying this is a method you jump right into, but is other methods fail this is certainly something you could try if done correctly and non-abusive.

As I said, I believe that many people misunderstand how the alpha roll ahould actually be done.

[OrangeDog]

YEARS ago a trainer I worked with recommended I do this with a dog of mine. Like you said, NOT in a violent way just simply holding the dog down on it's side until she "gave up"... the dog was fine until using this method and after she was never the same, she became fearful and aggressive and it took many years of positive reinforcement training to undo the damage that was done.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by OrangeDog

YEARS ago a trainer I worked with recommended I do this with a dog of mine. Like you said, NOT in a violent way just simply holding the dog down on it's side until she "gave up"... the dog was fine until using this method and after she was never the same, she became fearful and aggressive and it took many years of positive reinforcement training to undo the damage that was done.

Again, it depends on the overall temprement of the dog. This method may be counterproductive for a submissive, fearful, or shy dog but may be effective for a dominant or high energy dog. Depends on how the dog reacts to the training and their overall temprement. For example a method of training may require you use a loud noice maker/shaker to use as you catch your dog doing something wrong. This may work for a high strung dog but may make things worse.more tramatic for a shy/submissive dog.

Here is a link to an interesting article discussing an experiment one man conducted. He acted as a submissive member to his dogs and seemed to have gotten positive results. he claims that dominance in packs doesn't exist with wolves or dogs;

http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspo...lpha-roll.html

I find this hard to believe. There may be some truth to his arguement, however I have a female dog who can be dominant at times and humps other dogs, which is a way of asserting dominance. I believe that this DOES exist.

This method is just one of those things. Some feel it is effective, some don't. All I'm throwing out there is that it's an option to try with dogs of bold/high energy/dominant temprement. Def. not for shy or submissive dogs. Remember, you can always give something a shot and if things don't work out try something different. Every individual dog is different and different traing methods are effective on many different levels.

[Susan]

Thanks for all of your input. In no way did I interpret Todd's verbage to indicate an alpha roll. I have seen many owners at the dog park with very loved and spoiled dogs make their dogs lie on their sides and hold them gently but firmly there for 30 seconds to a minute just to put them in a time out, and show them that when they misbehave, their play ends as a result. Todd used the verbage carefully but firmly, I believe. My dog is of a northern breed, and although I had hoped to do nothing but entirely positive training with him, it has been verified by a trainer to me who worked with him for a little while one day outside the dog park, that Eli is very willful, independent, and does not have the temperament of wanting to please its owner. I believe it may be that he requires a slightly firmer hand and more careful monitoring, which you may be certain I will not overdo, as I have a hard time doing it anyway. I tend to spoil my dogs rotten, but I need to nip these behaviors in the bud, before things get out of control, and I cannot handle Eli at all, or we get kicked out of the dog park.
Yogi, I'm sorry, but I could not tell from your message if you were agreeing with Orange Dog or with Todd?? I will work on things with Eli, and let you know how it goes in a few weeks. He did not pee on anyone yesterday or today! Thanks, Susan

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Susan

Thanks for all of your input. In no way did I interpret Todd's verbage to indicate an alpha roll. I have seen many owners at the dog park with very loved and spoiled dogs make their dogs lie on their sides and hold them gently but firmly there for 30 seconds to a minute just to put them in a time out, and show them that when they misbehave, their play ends as a result. Todd used the verbage carefully but firmly, I believe. My dog is of a northern breed, and although I had hoped to do nothing but entirely positive training with him, it has been verified by a trainer to me who worked with him for a little while one day outside the dog park, that Eli is very willful, independent, and does not have the temperament of wanting to please its owner. I believe it may be that he requires a slightly firmer hand and more careful monitoring, which you may be certain I will not overdo, as I have a hard time doing it anyway. I tend to spoil my dogs rotten, but I need to nip these behaviors in the bud, before things get out of control, and I cannot handle Eli at all, or we get kicked out of the dog park.
Yogi, I'm sorry, but I could not tell from your message if you were agreeing with Orange Dog or with Todd?? I will work on things with Eli, and let you know how it goes in a few weeks. He did not pee on anyone yesterday or today! Thanks, Susan

I am agreeing with Orange dog, I have seen this technique used over my 50 years and simply put as Orange dog put it, the dogs in nearly all cases were not the same. You do not want a totally submissive dog and using a technique that observers have seen in wolves on domesticated dogs generally does more harm than good. Understand, the books or training dogs has been written and re-written so often that within a year another comes along denoting that what you learned previously no longer works. Just when you thought it was the correct way. I have 25 adult dogs, not one have I ever used this technique on because simply, they are dogs not wolves. I am the alpha in the house and the 2 of my breeds are extremely prone to very independent natures. German Pinschers and true Miniature Pinschers. These breeds are not recommended ever for first time dog owners due to their instincts to be free thinking and generally not prone to taking orders let alone training. I control all of them with no use for using techniques designed for wild animals on domesticated ones. The problem stems from people just not getting a real grip on the fact that dogs are NOT wolves. Assuming because they are related therefore all characteristics are the same is naive at best. That would be like assuming your house cat is like a lion. Sorry, outside of some hunting techniques, these breeds share no real similarity. Unless you think you can cuddle with a lion like you do with your house cat. Domesticated and wild simply are 2 complete ends of the spectrum of behavior in animals. You do not use the technique seen on one as a training tool for another. I have seen dogs roll over and hold one down. Problem is, the next day I have seen the same 2 and the roles reversed. It is a mock game though linked to an ancient inherited trait, the dogs have no idea why they are doing it. I had a Mal/Wolf for years. Anyone will tell you who has experience with wolves in the wild that you do not make direct eye contact with one especially an alpha. A friend of mine did this to my mix who was 170lbs. I told him that it was not a good idea. He did so anyway and the dog launched into him knocking him into a fence. The dog did not bite but did take it as a challenge. The wolf would have attacked with aggression, the dog did so based on instincts but had no idea why or what to do once he launched into him. He is domesticated not a wolf. Carried over traits are common in dogs from wolves but domestication is the term given to animals that are NO longer wild. The concept therefore of linking what people see in the wild with the way they treat their domesticated dogs simply is an error.
If you want to learn ways to train a dog, follow the few real trainers out there that don't train the dog but train you so you can do it. Unfortunately, trainers like Milan have one real fault. They train the dog which in turn the dog complies with his request but in actuality they need to train and teach you how it is done so that you are the one giving the dog commands. People like Victoria Stillwell is good at this (this is not and endorsement only to show there are others with different philosophies) and her success rate is every bit as good as Milans except that you learn how as she is teaching and training you how to do it. The one thing you never want to do with a dog is break its spirit. A dog will live a long life with the one thing that we all are prone naturally live long with, little stress in our lives. It is the biggest killer of to long life. My dogs are dogs first, people pleasers second. Your dog should not be a robot just to be shown off but to be controlled in such a way as to be social with people, come when called etc. The minimal not the most.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

I am agreeing with Orange dog, I have seen this technique used over my 50 years and simply put as Orange dog put it, the dogs in nearly all cases were not the same. You do not want a totally submissive dog and using a technique that observers have seen in wolves on domesticated dogs generally does more harm than good. Understand, the books or training dogs has been written and re-written so often that within a year another comes along denoting that what you learned previously no longer works. Just when you thought it was the correct way. I have 25 adult dogs, not one have I ever used this technique on because simply, they are dogs not wolves. I am the alpha in the house and the 2 of my breeds are extremely prone to very independent natures. German Pinschers and true Miniature Pinschers. These breeds are not recommended ever for first time dog owners due to their instincts to be free thinking and generally not prone to taking orders let alone training. I control all of them with no use for using techniques designed for wild animals on domesticated ones. The problem stems from people just not getting a real grip on the fact that dogs are NOT wolves. Assuming because they are related therefore all characteristics are the same is naive at best. That would be like assuming your house cat is like a lion. Sorry, outside of some hunting techniques, these breeds share no real similarity. Unless you think you can cuddle with a lion like you do with your house cat. Domesticated and wild simply are 2 complete ends of the spectrum of behavior in animals. You do not use the technique seen on one as a training tool for another. I have seen dogs roll over and hold one down. Problem is, the next day I have seen the same 2 and the roles reversed. It is a mock game though linked to an ancient inherited trait, the dogs have no idea why they are doing it. I had a Mal/Wolf for years. Anyone will tell you who has experience with wolves in the wild that you do not make direct eye contact with one especially an alpha. A friend of mine did this to my mix who was 170lbs. I told him that it was not a good idea. He did so anyway and the dog launched into him knocking him into a fence. The dog did not bite but did take it as a challenge. The wolf would have attacked with aggression, the dog did so based on instincts but had no idea why or what to do once he launched into him. He is domesticated not a wolf. Carried over traits are common in dogs from wolves but domestication is the term given to animals that are NO longer wild. The concept therefore of linking what people see in the wild with the way they treat their domesticated dogs simply is an error.
If you want to learn ways to train a dog, follow the few real trainers out there that don't train the dog but train you so you can do it. Unfortunately, trainers like Milan have one real fault. They train the dog which in turn the dog complies with his request but in actuality they need to train and teach you how it is done so that you are the one giving the dog commands. People like Victoria Stillwell is good at this (this is not and endorsement only to show there are others with different philosophies) and her success rate is every bit as good as Milans except that you learn how as she is teaching and training you how to do it. The one thing you never want to do with a dog is break its spirit. A dog will live a long life with the one thing that we all are prone naturally live long with, little stress in our lives. It is the biggest killer of to long life. My dogs are dogs first, people pleasers second. Your dog should not be a robot just to be shown off but to be controlled in such a way as to be social with people, come when called etc. The minimal not the most.

I'm not saying alpha rolling is the best method. It should not be used before trying other methods. This is just something I'm throwing out there to look into if the dogs does not respond to other methods. Some dogs just are very dominant in nature and differently tempremented. This is an option if other methods fail which probably isn't that uncommon in certain temprements dogs have.

Originally Posted by Yogi

I am agreeing with Orange dog, I have seen this technique used over my 50 years and simply put as Orange dog put it, the dogs in nearly all cases were not the same. You do not want a totally submissive dog and using a technique that observers have seen in wolves on domesticated dogs generally does more harm than good. Understand, the books or training dogs has been written and re-written so often that within a year another comes along denoting that what you learned previously no longer works. Just when you thought it was the correct way. I have 25 adult dogs, not one have I ever used this technique on because simply, they are dogs not wolves. I am the alpha in the house and the 2 of my breeds are extremely prone to very independent natures. German Pinschers and true Miniature Pinschers. These breeds are not recommended ever for first time dog owners due to their instincts to be free thinking and generally not prone to taking orders let alone training. I control all of them with no use for using techniques designed for wild animals on domesticated ones. The problem stems from people just not getting a real grip on the fact that dogs are NOT wolves. Assuming because they are related therefore all characteristics are the same is naive at best. That would be like assuming your house cat is like a lion. Sorry, outside of some hunting techniques, these breeds share no real similarity. Unless you think you can cuddle with a lion like you do with your house cat. Domesticated and wild simply are 2 complete ends of the spectrum of behavior in animals. You do not use the technique seen on one as a training tool for another. I have seen dogs roll over and hold one down. Problem is, the next day I have seen the same 2 and the roles reversed. It is a mock game though linked to an ancient inherited trait, the dogs have no idea why they are doing it. I had a Mal/Wolf for years. Anyone will tell you who has experience with wolves in the wild that you do not make direct eye contact with one especially an alpha. A friend of mine did this to my mix who was 170lbs. I told him that it was not a good idea. He did so anyway and the dog launched into him knocking him into a fence. The dog did not bite but did take it as a challenge. The wolf would have attacked with aggression, the dog did so based on instincts but had no idea why or what to do once he launched into him. He is domesticated not a wolf. Carried over traits are common in dogs from wolves but domestication is the term given to animals that are NO longer wild. The concept therefore of linking what people see in the wild with the way they treat their domesticated dogs simply is an error.
If you want to learn ways to train a dog, follow the few real trainers out there that don't train the dog but train you so you can do it. Unfortunately, trainers like Milan have one real fault. They train the dog which in turn the dog complies with his request but in actuality they need to train and teach you how it is done so that you are the one giving the dog commands. People like Victoria Stillwell is good at this (this is not and endorsement only to show there are others with different philosophies) and her success rate is every bit as good as Milans except that you learn how as she is teaching and training you how to do it. The one thing you never want to do with a dog is break its spirit. A dog will live a long life with the one thing that we all are prone naturally live long with, little stress in our lives. It is the biggest killer of to long life. My dogs are dogs first, people pleasers second. Your dog should not be a robot just to be shown off but to be controlled in such a way as to be social with people, come when called etc. The minimal not the most.

I'm not saying alpha rolling is the best method. It should not be used before trying other methods. This is just something I'm throwing out there to look into if the dogs does not respond to other methods. Some dogs just are very dominant in nature and differently tempremented. This is an option if other methods fail which probably isn't that uncommon in certain temprements dogs have.

I agree with you about not wanting to break a dog's spirit, however your dog must obey you and accept you as their pack leader in order. Same thing goes with kids. A parent should obviously show plenty of love and compassion for their kids, however there are also time to be serious/assertive or the kids will gewt out of hand. There are plenty of cases out ther of unruly children causing issue because their parents always gave them everything they ever wanted and never punishment them. I think balance is the key in any situation.

[Lara's mom]

There is a couple in my building who took in 3 large rescue dogs with issues. They have been using this alpha roll technique from the time they got them and, from my observation, those dogs are getting worse instead of better. One bit someone and drew blood after the owner told the individual that it was alright to pet the dog. Another one attacked a dog in our private park and did significant damage requiring surgery, antibiotics, a drain and an Elizabethan collar for almost two weeks. The owner of the injured dog was finally forced to take these deadbeats to small claims court in order to recoup his medical expenses which were substantial. They initially agreed to pay but the money was never forthcoming.

Thankfully, the management has banned these people from bringing their dogs into our park at the risk of them receiving an eviction notice. I don't know where they walk those dogs now or, even if they still have them. I haven't seen them in ages. However, at least the other dogs who are friendly are safe when playing in the park now. Personally, I think the whole "alpha thing" backfired on them big-time!

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

There is a couple in my building who took in 3 large rescue dogs with issues. They have been using this alpha roll technique from the time they got them and, from my observation, those dogs are getting worse instead of better. One bit someone and drew blood after the owner told the individual that it was alright to pet the dog. Another one attacked a dog in our private park and did significant damage requiring surgery, antibiotics and an Elizabethan collar for almost two weeks. The owner of the injured dog was finally forced to take these deadbeats to small claims court in order to recoup his medical expenses which were substantial.

Thankfully, the management has banned these people from bringing their dogs into our park at the risk of them receiving an eviction notice. I don't know where they walk those dogs now or, even if they still have them. I haven't seen them in ages. However, at least the other dogs who are friendly are safe now. Personally, I think the whole "alpha thing" backfired on them big-time!

Well, as I said before, many people use this method improperly. This method is not always effective and can make things worse like in this case. It is an option though, and I believe it can be successful in some cases. Again, depends on the temperament of the dog and how training previously goes. In this case, they should have stopped the method when the dogs started to get worse. The needed to have recognized this. Not every method works for all dogs because all dogs are different and different methods are necessary to accommodate the specific situation/temprement of dog.

[Lara's mom]

It was heartbreaking watching these two people doing what they did. The dogs would lunge and snap at them as they were attempting to "roll" the dogs. I can only imagine how many times these two were bitten by their own dogs. That in itself should have been a sign that this method wasn't working. However, it has been my experience that some dog parents get stuck into a certain ideology and nothing will deter them from it. They just "can't see the forest for the trees."

[OrangeDog]

Yes! My mother who is a very quiet, calm, almost affraid to scold a dog was instructed by a trainer years back to do this with her little terrier. She would rock the dog on it's side using no force or violience and still ended up bitten many times. She then found another trainer who was horrified that anybody would use this method and was able to train the dog without trouble.