[Cebbar]

Hi,

My parents have a large golden retriever named Penny.

My parents-in-law have two cavalier king charles spaniels.

My wife and I have another two cavalier king charles spaniels named Basil & Jasmine.

We live a long way from both sets of Parents, so when we visit, we always take our dogs with us. For a while now, we have always stayed with my wife's parents, as our cavaliers get along just fine with their cavaliers.

My parent's dog, Penny is about 6 months younger than our dogs, but about 6 times bigger! She is also very excitable, but also very powerful.

The first time Penny, Basil and Jasmine met, Penny was quite a shock to our two dogs. Jasmine rolled onto her back immediately and since then Penny has just about left her alone. Unfortunately, however, Basil reacts to Penny, in the only way he seems to be able to, which is to try to bite her on her nose (not that he can bite - he's the jowliest cavalier I've ever seen).

Unfortunately, we can not currently stay with my wife's parents, so will be forced to stay with my parents on our next visit.

I need Penny and Basil to get along, and I recognise there is something wrong on both sides. Penny's sheer size and insatiable excitability provokes Basil to be really defensive, but Penny just sees Basil as playing, which seems to serve to excite her further.

I have had two ideas on how to try to help the situation:

1. Overnight, we put Basil and Jasmine in their cage, in the same room as Penny, and hope that they miraculously acclimatise overnight.
2. My wife and I sit on the floor, with all the dogs, in the hope that our Dogs will not see Penny as so much of a threat. Presently, whenever visiting my Parents, our dogs spend their time on the sofa, out of the way of Penny.

Can anyone provide any advice, or any comments on my ideas above? I'd really like next week to be the week we make some headway with this problem!

Thanks.

[Todd]

Sounds like the issue could be hierarchical. Dogs are mammals with a pack mentality like wild dogs and wolves in the wild. They have a social pyramid if you will, with the most dominant dog on top and the most submissive dog on the bottom. There isn't too much you can do but let them be and see if things work out on their own, which they often times do once the pack hierarch is established. Obviously you don't want to let them fight with one another but you must recognize the difference between fighting and dominant behavior and know when things go to far. Trust your own judgement on this. You don't want either dog to get hurt obviously. How long were the dogs together the last time? Sometimes sparating the dogs can prolong the process in which they set the social hierarch and until this is established you are going to have issues. Give this a try. If all else fails you try and keep them separated when at all possible. Are both the feuding dogs female? If so it is more common for two female dogs to act this way with one another. Are both dogs fixed? Unfixed dogs make dominance more of an issue. Good luck and have fun on your trip!

[Cebbar]

Thanks for replying. I'm not overly convinced it is purely hierarchical, however. Basil seems more afraid than fighting for power. When him and Penny meet, they have to meet outside in the first instance, as he quickly releases the contents of his bladder! Once inside, he whimpers and whines until he's picked up. Only when he's on the sofa will he try to jowl Penny's nose, and only when when she gets within range of the sofa and annoys him enough (after about 5-10 seconds of Penny sniffing Basil he loses his nerve and starts to jowl her nose).

There's no way they could fight. Penny's clearly not wanting a fight, anyway, she's extremely excitable, and we think that her size and excitability it what's scaring Basil.

Really, we need her to calm down, and Basil to stop being such a complete wimp.

Originally Posted by Todd

How long were the dogs together the last time? Sometimes sparating the dogs can prolong the process in which they set the social hierarch and until this is established you are going to have issues.

They were together for several hours last time, but it's very rare that they are together since we do live 400 miles away.

Given we'll have to stay with my Parents next week, will the prolonged period together be enough to forge some acceptance from Basil?

My big concern is that bad things will happen if we put Basil & Jasmine in their cage overnight, with Penny in the same room. It's not as though they can get to each other, really though...so they should be safe enough, but would it help them acclimatise?

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Cebbar

Thanks for replying. I'm not overly convinced it is purely hierarchical, however. Basil seems more afraid than fighting for power. When him and Penny meet, they have to meet outside in the first instance, as he quickly releases the contents of his bladder! Once inside, he whimpers and whines until he's picked up. Only when he's on the sofa will he try to jowl Penny's nose, and only when when she gets within range of the sofa and annoys him enough (after about 5-10 seconds of Penny sniffing Basil he loses his nerve and starts to jowl her nose).

There's no way they could fight. Penny's clearly not wanting a fight, anyway, she's extremely excitable, and we think that her size and excitability it what's scaring Basil.

Really, we need her to calm down, and Basil to stop being such a complete wimp.


They were together for several hours last time, but it's very rare that they are together since we do live 400 miles away.

Given we'll have to stay with my Parents next week, will the prolonged period together be enough to forge some acceptance from Basil?

My big concern is that bad things will happen if we put Basil & Jasmine in their cage overnight, with Penny in the same room. It's not as though they can get to each other, really though...so they should be safe enough, but would it help them acclimatise?

Still could be a dominance issue. Urinating can be nerviousness but it can be marking territory as well. Either way I'd just keep them together and as long as neither one is getting hurt leave them be. Often times they will work their differences out themselves. It could be dominance in which case the pack leader must be established but if it is out of fear or sometyhing else it can also be fixed on their own. For example, when we first got my dog my cat would swat at her when he sniffed her and was getting to curious/close. My dog soon learned her boundries and never got within a few feet of the cat. I'd leave them be during the day and time should help a lot. At night I would def. not put the feuding dogs in the same cage but the same room should be alright. can't really get at one another. If you hear noise you can separate them and have them sleep in different rooms but it just depends on how things go. Good luck!

[Cebbar]

Oh, I certainly wouldn't be putting all three in a cage!! I doubt Penny would even fit in their cage on her own, let alone all three of them!

My hope was that the cage would provide protection, but still allow them to be close enough to try to relax around each other. Could be in for a noisy night...

[cigwyllt]

Maybe a totally useless idea but - can you and your parents exchange dog blankets through the post? Not necessarily a blanket but something with your own dog's smell. So that they can each get used to the other's smell before you get together. We had two small Jack Russells and a Golden and they would play so roughly together, one of the Jacks in particular. They would fall asleep with the Jack's neck in the Golden's mouth - she was excitable and young but incredibly gentle, no malice in her at all. Perhaps if they were each used to the scent before you start it might calm her a little?

[Cebbar]

That is a very intriguing idea. Unfortunately, there is no time to exchange blankets in the post before we travel down, however, it might be something worth considering if other things fail.

[Todd]

I would also first reintroduce the dogs to one another on lead outside off of the direct property and not just have your dogs just go right in the house to meet. Meeting outside first can makes things calmer and less intrucive/surprising for both dogs.

[GSDS4Life]

You don't give the ages, so I will assume the Penny is more or less a pup? Is Penny this excited with other dogs? Does Penny play with other dogs of different sizes?

Have your dogs been socialized with bigger dogs?

Few things you may want to try.

Have your parents take Penny for a good walk and a good run/play before you show up.

When you get there, have Penny and Basil meet in the front. I would then have either one of your parents take Penny for a walk as you take Basil. This could just be a short walk.

When Basil starts to whine, I would either say Basil "enough" or Basil "settle"
Everytime you pick Basil up from whining, he is winning. He needs to learn that he can't be picked up everytime because Penny is around. It's called tough love.LOL

With Basil going for Pennys nose, well he is telling her enough. Dogs do this. I have 4 GSD's. And my youngest will test the others at times. They will put him in his place if he keeps pestering them. But Basil need to realize that Penny just wants to be friends and doesn't want to hurt him.


Well I hope some of this helped.