[lagrena]

We live in a rural area and have several acres of land. We have a total of 6 dogs, 2 Schnauzers in our home, and 4 dogs we rescued as puppies. These dogs are allowed to be loose on the property and are generally well behaved. Of these 4 dogs, two are female spade and two males, one neutered. The 2 males are the specific problem. One “Blue:” is a mix Golden Retriever and Springer Spaniel is the accepted leader more dominate than the other “Tux” a Black Irish Setter. Our problem is some serious aggression by way of fence fighting that results in serious plant damage further described herein.
But before I go on we know the problem, the outside dogs trespassing within Blue’s area and his desire to protect us from them. These dogs get lots of attention, have outside toys to chew and are generally well behaved. They come when called obey, commands such a sit and down. Now for the problem.
One of our neighbors passed away and had 3 dogs that were allowed to run loose in the area even before we built our home. When alive he came to this home only for vacation and weekends and other neighbors fed and took care of these dogs while he was gone. One of these neighbors lives across the road from us and regularly cares and feeds these dogs. One of these dogs is a large male of similar breed to ”Blue” and when they see each other its fence fighting time. In addition, when fence fighting our other male “Tux” gets in “Blues” way and is frequently attacked. But worse than the fence fighting is the damage to a very nice row of hedges. “Tux” in his frustration tears off branches and chews them. He also makes a clear view of what happens on the road for him and “Blue” to keep guard.
I work daily on the fence fighting issue teaching “Blue” that this behavior is unacceptable. Typically I call him and tell him his behavior is unacceptable. If it’s a violent fight I chain him for an hour and he seems to be understanding that his actions are unacceptable and get him chained. Many times now he stops fighting and comes and I praise him, calm him and treat him. But this will be a long slow process distrupted by the visits from the other dogs.
Our neighbors want the 3 dogs kept in the neighborhood as they feel they offer them security but are unwilling to control them in the fence fighting. When not fence fighting these dogs are very friendly.
So I believe at one time or another fence fighting will come under control but how can I stop the plant destruction? It’s a long 5 to 7 minute walk down to our gate so spraying water is typically not timely. I’ve been thinking about putting things in or on the ground like their feces or having some form of citrus spray come when they fight but how?
Does anyone have any ideas of what I can put either on the plants or on in the ground that will not damage the plants that will deter the dogs from chewing, tearing off branches and going between the plants causing damage?.

[german sheep]

No way, you will have no chance! No serious possibility to succeed in your wishes! That is an absolute utopian concept prompted by an optimistic view of humanity.

Your dogs can not fullfill your desires!
A domesticated dog needs the human leader. In your case, there is no leader, because leadership in a dogs point of view means 24 hours a day, permanently without having a break.
Unless this situation is achieved, you will face many problems and issues in relation to fence fighting.

It is your responsibility to lay groundrules. Your arrangement is inappropriate and not species-appropriate and to handle with utilities of torture to safe you plants, is inacceptable.
Then you have to change or at least to overthink your claims concerning your ownership.

LG
gs

english version

[lagrena]

German Sheep it is unfortunate that your eloquent comments come without credentials. Your response, like many on forums avoid addressing the issue avoid offering an intellegent response and goes to condem the author of the question. All this while not providing any credentials in support of your comments.

Only one other time have I ever entered a discussion or asked a question in a forum and the response to my question like yours was a waste of my reading time, one reason I have little belief in forum information or responses. This response makes me sorry I enter or wrote in this forum.

Be constructive or I do not need your reply

[cigwyllt]

This is an international forum and as such has members from all over the world. For many of these members English will not be their first language - as is the case for German Sheep. It may take a couple of readings to understand what has been written but to me her reply makes perfect sense - it is impossible to teach the dogs that their behaviour is unacceptable if you are not on the spot when the behaviour happens.

There are cultural differences too in how we live and how we care for our dogs. Coming from the UK I have no experience of "outdoor" dogs - our dogs live in the house as part of the family and very few people have acres of land for their dogs to run free. Certainly in the UK and probably other parts of Europe as well your neighbours dogs would be considered to have been abandoned and would be removed from the property.

In the light of the cultural differences you might reconsider the validity of German Sheep's reply.

[lagrena]

cigwyllt Thank you for your reply and I well under Greman Sheep's response. But German Sheep offers no credentials to support his comments. Furthermore if you read my post you will see I spend a great deal of time with these dogs and they are generally well behaved. I am clearly dealing with a problem that involves an uncontrollable factor, the dogs that frequent the area outside our gate, he dogs that fence fight with my dogs and create the distrubance. I am trying to deal with that issue beyond my control in correcting and training my dogs, an almost impossible task. As nobody works with or trains the dogs outside my gate. Frankly, I wish my neighbors would control, work with them and take them inside their property but I have been unsuccessful in my attempst to achieve that goal. That said their has been some recogintion of the problem when Blue severely bit one of thoes dogs.
I believe that German Sheep was not constructive in his response, and futhermore understands little about dogs. I also believe my post provides to any reader that I am experienced with dogs having 2 inside and working to help the dog population by rescuing 4 other dogs, providing them a good home and all the care.
I was looking for a good response to my post. For example if your dog digs in your garden you can put is fecies in his digging spots and he will stop!

Thank you for your interest

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by lagrena

German Sheep it is unfortunate that your eloquent comments come without credentials. Your response, like many on forums avoid addressing the issue avoid offering an intellegent response and goes to condem the author of the question. All this while not providing any credentials in support of your comments.

Only one other time have I ever entered a discussion or asked a question in a forum and the response to my question like yours was a waste of my reading time, one reason I have little belief in forum information or responses. This response makes me sorry I enter or wrote in this forum.

Be constructive or I do not need your reply

Sorry, but you are awfully quick to judge and condemn--esp. being very new here and not 'knowing' the members here that well! Here is something I copied from German Sheep's profile page -(About Me): Occupation
Problem dog therapist and working dog instructor :: Cornelia Benford :: Hundezentrum Niederrhein :: Die Gefährten :: follow me on twitter
Will be right back with another copied post by German Sheep---and by the way He is a SHE!

Here is her post: Hello fellows,

I know I haven't been online for a while and I feel sorry about that. But there was a good reason for this.
I have taken "great pains" to translate our (Hundewelten Germany) e-book about the major errors in dog education. So this can help every owner overseas in the most asked questions about dog training and dog education.

This, what we call it script, is for free!!! And will stay for free!!!
You can, without paying a cent, download this e-book and read about the most used utilities in dog training. What they really do with your dog and how your relationship is influenced by using this instruments.

Please don't let me be misunderstood in a way of just promoting my work and therefore myself. My intention is to help unsespecting owners and their dogs from being misused by... whatever...

Feel free to download this script. Underneath you can find our famous anti-control programme as a first aid for problems with your dog.

english version

With best regards and in hope you like it
Conny Benford

Here is a link to the entire thread---in case you want to check out her 'works' by clicking on the 'blued' link (The words at bottom of her 1st post--words: english version in her thread/post.
(Will not come up in a '2nd hand copy' I just put here!)--->
please read

[lucysdoghouse]

Is there a way to put in some containment to keep them from the fence. Maybe a invisible fence to keep them away or even another regular fence.

[lagrena]

lucysdoghouse
Thank you for a good constructive response. Yes I have thought about an invisible fence, the wire buried underground or the unwired type. The wired type is problematic for us as our ground is very rocky and some of this area would be under a patterned designed brick road, our entry. Removal and replacement of the bricks is a huge job and may not go back in shape very well. As for the unwired invisible fence, we also have issues of lots of elevation changes and distance as our land has a huge elevation difference across this area and the area to be invisible fenced is quite long. From what I have read these have issues in distance and every website I’ve seen seems to make them sound GREAT but reviews by users do not seem to indicate they work very well. I would be interested if anyone reading this post has any positive comments on a product of this type and the brand or website for more info.

Corky/Max

I am reading through the e-book about the major errors in dog education. Will comment later

[german sheep]

cigwyllt and Corky/Max thank you so much for your assistance

and @lagrena
it wasn't my intention to upset you, sometimes I forget to explain my thoughts, when time is little... I'm sorry about that and you are perfectly right to remind me that I have to clarify what I have written on the top:

you have a couple of dogs, they live with you but not in a dependency 24 hours a day. So when you are inside and cannot show your dogs that you will take the responsibility for what is taking place, your dogs will coupe with situations of their own and this from a dogs standpoint (as a predator and therefore instinct driven) in an absolutely efficient and correct manner. For "Blue" it is imperative to do the fence fighting for what he is trying to do is to keep and safe the territory of its own, because he has no other choice for you are not present.

The situation you described above means for "Blue" he is confronted with an immediate danger, doesn't matter if the strange dogs a seperated by a fence, because other dogs a rivals and posess a real threat to his way of living. As soon as you aren't able to controll and protect your usual surroundings because you are somewhere else, your dog has to take the command. As said earlier, he doesn't do it to upset you, he tries to protect its habitat and everything in it, all the resources, for only one reason: for survival.

These procedures he has successfully applied over and over again, this makes the situation more worse, because of the success he has the feeling that he does not need you as a leader anymore and is therefore largely independent in making decisions.

IF YOU penalize (through or with whatever) your dog to stop him from doing the fights, then maybe you will have a brief moment of happiness but the problem is not solved and your dog maybe will attack your other dogs in the best case, because he only avoids the situation at the fence but the energy still stays on and must go somewhere else, in the worst case he will not accept visitors anymore and starts to defend his territory by using aggression against humans.

As long as the dog has no equal alternative which means a real solution to the problem, which only can be the leadership through its human, you are only displacing the unwanted behaviour and my experience shows that it will get worse and more dangerous.

By starting to work with one single dog, the next dog in the pack strucuture will take over the control and you have nothing won. Quite simply, there is no chance of success without having an increasing problem.

LG
gs

[lagrena]

I agree with your comments about how dogs interact and their need to protect. I also agree that working with one may lead to another becoming the pack leader. And my hands are tied unable to do something with the outside dogs as they are not mine, they were here before us and are considered by many as the protectors of the neighborhood.
But I do believe that my showing Blue daily that his behavior is unacceptable with my words, showing through love, affection and a little calming sometimes combined with being chained for a bit will result in his understanding that I am the pack leader and that his following my lead and desires results in his pleasure, more attention.
Yes I am not always there but I have one advantage. The fence fighting happens only twice a day and at somewhat predictable times. Our neighbor feeds those outside dogs about 9:30 am (one opportunity for me to be specially attentive to Blue) and then about 7PM when they usually take a walk and the outside dogs walk with them ( this happens to be our outside dog feeding time) a timed distraction from the problem now..
If at other times of the day I hear Blue getting excited he will calm down just by my call and I also praise him. But not him alone. Although I call Blue, I am also asking where is Tux or Lucky or Boots. Boots and Lucky are usually at the house so it’s only Tux and he comes for affection anytime he hears someone. It’s hard to pet or play with 4 dogs at once, but I work on this daily. I take time several times a day and sit with them in petting and affectionate play. I believe that my attention to the problem, Blue’s current level of response and paying particular attention to the time when problems occur along with our daily time together will result in success. You see I cannot accept failure as the only available solution.

Now consider what I have written, how I take time with them, work with them many times a day and I ask what suggestions you might have to increase my level of success.

[german sheep]

hey lagrena,

Hope is the last to die.
Maybe you will work out some kind of result, but always think that you are dealing with the symptom and not the cause.

The dog acts accordingly to its species with aggression caused through a certain independency and too much responsibility in its surroundings. That is why Blue shows its behaviour!
You see, what he does and you are trying to cure that!

But it is a big difference and you will not have the effect you suggest. The WHY cures the problem constantly the WHAT handles and manages unwanted behaviour, with the result that the symptoms will resurface regularly.

Here we come to the point where you will lose the dogs understanding of your leadership because he cannot follow your thoughts anymore! For him it seems unlogically that sometimes you have control and sometimes he has to take over the responsibility. Can you imagine a serious boss like this for yourself? I know why I am self employed! And we are "blessed" with encapsulated and foresightes thinking a dog is not able to think this way!

Your standpoint and understanding of the whole situation is not nearly the same as Blues. He is a dog and has no logical thinking around three corners...like we humans are able to.
A dog has a stimulus-reaction principle. In your case: the other dogs by the fence as stimulus = aggression as reaction from Blue.

With symptomwork you only cut the existing stimulus-reaction principle in to halfes, but you are not willing to give your dog a reasonable alternative to what he has shown up to now. So he will always make the same "mistake" over and over again. To give an alternative has nothing to do with love and affection and to pet the dogs during the day and with toys all around the yard, it has to do with leadership and this requires more then stroking and playing.

Via mail I can only give you a hint to the subject how to handle the situation a little better, but be aware that Blue might have the tendency to rebell against your human guidance! Doesn't matter how calm they seem, they are dogs and I haven't seen your concrete situation.
And think of that this is symptomwork!!! and will not cure the problem, the situation will daily reoccur!!! maybe worse than before when you are not there. Furthermore you have no influence on the ongoing interaction between your rescued dogs, maybe you set off an avalanche.

Will send you an Email.

gs

[CorkyMax]

The member who mentioned the fence idea has given me another idea on that subject---AND PLEASE everyone do not 'flog me with a wet noodle.' This is something that maybe some other member can improve upon, lol, sometimes it takes team work. I was wondering if a person could put up an electric fence (very low voltage). Mind you I am no expert on any of this so any comments are welcome! You prob. wouldn't have to do much digging for such a slim post --width or depth and would think you may not have to put a post in the area (bricks/driveway--not sure of what distance this would entail and even if you did have to put a post or 2 there--Should work anyhow) You would maybe need a couple 'hot' wires so not able to go under or over and wondering if you attache something metal like chicken wire to the hot wires if that would work too and it would be light weight enough for the posts. I would think the dog(s) would get the message not to try going beyond this fence pretty quick and you would not even have to be there to do anything--Like let them figure this out on their own. You would still be the alpha and hopefully your dogs would eventually 'get the message' and just give up on the agression. Okay, add to it, anybody that can improve on my 'work in progress.'

[CorkyMax]

I have talked to Yogi (member/moderator in this forum). This part of my last reply to this thread needs some updating: You prob. wouldn't have to do much digging for such a slim post --width or depth and would think you may not have to put a post in the area (bricks/driveway--not sure of what distance this would entail and even if you did have to put a post or 2 there--Should work anyhow) You would maybe need a couple 'hot' wires so not able to go under or over and wondering if you attache something metal like chicken wire to the hot wires if that would work too and it would be light weight enough for the posts. Would not have to go to all that work! Is your fence wooden or do you have any metal (shockable) parts to it? If you are interested in this idea--I am going to ask Yogi to explain things on what to do (I would just 'screw up the works'). He says this has been done many times before for a situation like this and it works quite well----Has me convinced that I was on a good track! So how about it? Sound like a good idea to you?!

[lagrena]

Corky/Max First let me discribe the fence construction. It is iron bars set into a concrete low wall about 1 meter high. The inside of our property is in line with the concrete and so from the inside its all iron. The gate is a rolling side steel gate.
I would be very interested in more information about this idea. But I will tell you that I had thought about this too. I had an electician here doing some other work and took him down to the fence and showed him where we can get power, a pump house along one end of the fence. The electrician advised me that this would not work as it is grounded. I'm not an electician and I am still interested in doing this and would be intested in hearing Yogi's idea. One reason I like this idea is since I am unalbe to control the outside dogs and they jump on the fence sometimes standing on the horizontal bars it might just keep them off as well as keep my dogs back.

I will tell you that I am working on some other processes with Blue. With the my other dogs inside an enclosure and its just Blue and myself I have been walking him on a leash at the area of the outside dogs. When he sees them or starts to get excited I'm blocking him with my body to show my displeasure. I've just started this and today he looks at me like to say "What" From what I see, its a start.

Please have Yogi get me his ideas.

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by lagrena

Corky/Max First let me discribe the fence construction. It is iron bars set into a concrete low wall about 1 meter high. The inside of our property is in line with the concrete and so from the inside its all iron. The gate is a rolling side steel gate.
I would be very interested in more information about this idea. But I will tell you that I had thought about this too. I had an electician here doing some other work and took him down to the fence and showed him where we can get power, a pump house along one end of the fence. The electrician advised me that this would not work as it is grounded. I'm not an electician and I am still interested in doing this and would be intested in hearing Yogi's idea. One reason I like this idea is since I am unalbe to control the outside dogs and they jump on the fence sometimes standing on the horizontal bars it might just keep them off as well as keep my dogs back.

I will tell you that I am working on some other processes with Blue. With the my other dogs inside an enclosure and its just Blue and myself I have been walking him on a leash at the area of the outside dogs. When he sees them or starts to get excited--Can you tell if this excitement would turn into agression for sure or if it is excitement just to see the dog? I'm blocking him with my body to show my displeasure. I've just started this and today he looks at me like to say "What" From what I see, its a start. That sounds like a good idea too. Lol, do you think there could be a chance of socializing these dogs and have them become 'buddies!?' Prob. not but it would be nice if that would work! Maybe to a point of indifference would even be good. Don't know if you mentioned how many dogs there are outside this fence? Too bad the neighbor who feeds them couldn't help out here and you all meet outside the fence ---dogs on leashes of course and enough people to handle them. Everyone sort of socializing----I know --It sounds like it would be impossible----I am no trainer or expert here--just my wishful thinking probably.

Please have Yogi get me his ideas.

I thought it sounded like a good idea and you do too-good ---now to try and get it to work. I am surprised that the electrician couldn't come up with some way of making it work! (His profession!) Yogi is not an electrician, lol, I don't think he ever has been, but he is very smart so maybe he can help. I will either call him or private message him if I can't catch him on the phone---He has been doing work away from home so may not catch him till later tonight. Will let you know.

I just went back and reread your original 1st post. So there are 3 outside the fence dogs that are friendly enough to you. Sounds like a good place to start desensitizing the whole collection of dogs--yours and the outsiders! Could you go outside the fence when these dogs are there--Just you at 1st and show your dogs that these dogs are nice to you, pet them, give them treats and let your dogs see how friendly you are and thas these dogs are no threat to anybody. No expert here remember but maybe worth a try. May take some time, patience and repetition. These outside dogs--Do you think they would be okay being leashed and walked-(by you)-One at a time of course--at 1st anyhow. You could start with one of those dogs alone and make sure your dogs see this---gradually add Blue to these walks with one of the outside dogs. I don't know if all this would work or how long it would take but would be great if you could eventually try bringing (one at a time)1 of the outside dogs (definitely leashed at 1st) onto your property to 'play' (Lol, yeh, I said play!) with your dogs. The theme here is to get your dogs to see that you or the property doesn't need protecting from these 3 outside dogs!

Note: You may need some family members to help you with all this---CALM and not tense--relaxed and friendly acting---Remember dogs pick up on things and act accordingly. Have to show what you want them to see and uptight, etc will not work!!
Okay you dog trainer/behaviorists members--Hit me with your comments! I am no expert--just trying to use some common sense.

[lagrena]

Corkty/Max Yes the three dogs are friendly to us and to all neighbors. They are an older female the mother (Dolly) of two boys not neutered (Buddy) and (Kirky) the larger and leader who fights with Blue. Our first rescue dog, female (Lucky) now spade, as a young dog, socializes with them since she was young and likes to go out occasionally when she can and play with them. Boots our Doberman/Rottweiler mix female does not go beyond the gate and generally we stop Tux and Blue who occasionally step over the gate line. Just a simple command and they obey.

About 6 months ago (at the start of some of the fence fighting) a neighbor who had recently completed his home including three sides which are 2 meter high stone walls began to fill some dirt for planting this fall. His property was open as the road gate was not installed. Since the dirt was higher on his side of his wall he now provided access to our property for Kirky, Buddy and Dolly. Occasionally, I awoke to find them on the property sometimes eating some leftover food. I’d walk them down to the gate and they would leave. No fights with Blue. This is after some of the first fights. Now our neighbor has closed his property and Kirky and company cannot access our property.
So at one time they were all on our property without fighting. I never saw them play, just look at each other, somewhat staying apart. So as to your point of socializing them, I’ve thought about it but I am afraid that me taking Blue on a leash outside could result in my having Blue restrained when being attacked. I’ve also thought about just walking him out with me but was not interested in encouraging him to leave the proropety.

Got any thoughts? Or comments from anyone with experience would be of help.

Forgot to mention that Blue is neutered. But that did nothing for aggression but it must also be considered a protection instinct.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by lagrena

Corkty/Max Yes the three dogs are friendly to us and to all neighbors. They are an older female the mother (Dolly) of two boys not neutered (Buddy) and (Kirky) the larger and leader who fights with Blue. Our first rescue dog, female (Lucky) now spade, as a young dog, socializes with them since she was young and likes to go out occasionally when she can and play with them. Boots our Doberman/Rottweiler mix female does not go beyond the gate and generally we stop Tux and Blue who occasionally step over the gate line. Just a simple command and they obey.

About 6 months ago (at the start of some of the fence fighting) a neighbor who had recently completed his home including three sides which are 2 meter high stone walls began to fill some dirt for planting this fall. His property was open as the road gate was not installed. Since the dirt was higher on his side of his wall he now provided access to our property for Kirky, Buddy and Dolly. Occasionally, I awoke to find them on the property sometimes eating some leftover food. I’d walk them down to the gate and they would leave. No fights with Blue. This is after some of the first fights. Now our neighbor has closed his property and Kirky and company cannot access our property.
So at one time they were all on our property without fighting. I never saw them play, just look at each other, somewhat staying apart. So as to your point of socializing them, I’ve thought about it but I am afraid that me taking Blue on a leash outside could result in my having Blue restrained when being attacked. I’ve also thought about just walking him out with me but was not interested in encouraging him to leave the proropety.

Got any thoughts? Or comments from anyone with experience would be of help.

Forgot to mention that Blue is neutered. But that did nothing for aggression but it must also be considered a protection instinct.

PM sent regarding this.

[lagrena]

Yogi, thanks for the reply, not being a farmer I know little about this but when we lived in the states I've heard of it. We now live in Greece and it may take some research to find it but it's a great idea. Thank you.

What's this about being a mini doberman?? I love dobermans but have never owned a pure dobie. Our dog pupulation is mostly smaller hourse dogs, now mini schnauzers and rescue pups. It's a great way of life having their problems and love.

Thanks again

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by lagrena

Yogi, thanks for the reply, not being a farmer I know little about this but when we lived in the states I've heard of it. We now live in Greece and it may take some research to find it but it's a great idea. Thank you.

What's this about being a mini doberman?? I love dobermans but have never owned a pure dobie. Our dog pupulation is mostly smaller hourse dogs, now mini schnauzers and rescue pups. It's a great way of life having their problems and love.

Thanks again

With luck you should be able to find a compatible system where you live.
If you re-read the signature it notes, NOT a mini Doberman. I raise, rescue and breed Miniature Pinschers. They are not related to Dobermans. Many assume they are but in fact the Miniature Pinschers was around some 200 years before Karl Frederich Louis Dobermann created his "Doberman Pinscher".
He did though based on numerous reports base his on the Miniature noting he wanted a larger version with the same appearance and tenacity.

[lagrena]

An update on the subject of socializing our dogs with the outiside dogs. It seems that yesterday when we went to do some errands Blue got into a fight with the outside dogs at the fence. Apparently Blue bit off one of the outside dogs ears. We found this out last night as some neighbors came to visit. They heard the fight and the next thing they saw was one dog bleeding. Now I would be even more concerned about taking Blue out on a leash or loose.