[hugheseo]

That title is presumptuous, I am open to interpretation.

I have a 2 year old lab mix (maybe some pitt, but it looks like a lab) who has been a playful puppy that was well socialized. When he plays and it gets too rough, he ends up on his back, submitting. This is true regardless of the other dogs size. He will get up and play afterward suggesting that he isn't scarred by the intimidation.

A year ago he first bit a puppy. This was after trying to play with it, then losing interest. He was laying down calmly and the puppy kept coming up to him and pawing his face. No growl, just bite. puppy was fine, we were mortified, but chalked it up to Charlie (our dog) not tolerating an assertive puppy. This puppy intolerance occured at least 2 more times before we stopped bring him around puppies all together.

If that wasn't bad enough, this past weekend we were at a friends barbecue (Texas weather got nice this week). There were several dogs there. Charlie got along with them great as always. A new dog joined the group and I was nervous, although the dog was older. This dog was a dominant type. Although smaller than charlie, their owners had mention that he had gotten in dog fights before. I thought right then was time to say bye, but I changed my mind when they sniffed each other and moved on. They pretty much ignored each other for a while, until some friends were making Charlie chase a laser around. The new dog started growling, but kept a distance. after about 30 minutes of this, the new dog growled at charlie from right next to him standing in a dominant aggressive way. Charlie went after him. the fight probably lasted 7 seconds, but it felt like forever. I grabbed charlie, the other dog was grabbed by his owner. Charlie limped for about a minute but was then fine. Other dog had some cuts on his nose and chin, but was otherwise fine.

I worry that we cant bring him around new dogs anymore. I know he does not display typical aggression (he doesn't ever bark at strange dogs). He has plenty of dogs that he plays so well with. What in the world can I do? Am I freaking out about typical dog things? I can't think about what a trainer might do to help, the problem is only when he bites, and you can't practice that.

Sorry for my long post. It's been eating me up.

[lange]

I'm personally a little confused on how you see, yet don't see the problem.

First clue, your dog has problems with other dogs being pushy or dominant. Second clue, you were told that the new dog is temperamental. Third clue, this new dog started showing signs of agitation & growling at your dog. So, with all these things formulating you took charge how?

I think the owners of the other dog should have kept their dog at home & at least should have stepped in as soon as their dog started getting agitated. But since we can't control other people we should at least step in & act with our own dogs. From what you've stated it sounds like no one corrected or relaxed either dog before things continued escalating.

You say the problem is biting but I see it as biting being the end result of everything that led up to it.

Is your dog trained? Neutered? Insecure? Over excited? Is he good with new dogs or just dogs he knows? Those are the things I would think you should look into. Without a doubt, you should start stepping in to control the situation when you get cues from the dogs before they escalate. Just my take on everything..

[hugheseo]

yes, and in retrospect, you are right. I certainly wont allow my dog to be unsupervised with another dog that has shown aggressive behaviors. I didn't know the other dog well and it acted normal, if not timid for the first 30 mins or so. Charlie does play with a lot of other dogs, new dogs and old dogs, without problems. this is the first time he has had a problem with an adult dog. But yes you are right.

Charlie is neutered, very well trained. will heal around other dogs without reward. He is not timid, and is fine playing, sitting, observing, or napping with other dogs around. What I'm trying to say is that he is perfect, until he gets into a fight. Since my last post I spoke with someone else who saw the fight start that mentioned that Charlie lowered and turned his head to the side as the other dog approached. He then snapped. That would suggest fear to me, but then why puppies too?

Obviously I need to keep him away from dominant aggressive males, and puppies. I guess I am wondering if
1. Is there any way to remove these behaviors?
2. Is this something other owners experience?
3. Should I be keeping him away from more categories of/all unknown dogs?

Thank you

[Deafdogsrule]

Keeping him away from dogs is not the answer, unless you've exhausted all other avenues. I have a fear aggressive dog (he tries to lunge and attack strange dogs) But he LOVES other dogs, and LOVES to play. Basically, what I am doing with Oliver is clickertraining. I have read many books on the subject, but the best of the best is "Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog" by Emma Parsons. He methods work very well with my boy.

I think your dog is afraid of challenges from other dogs, he also doesn't seem to have any bite inhibition. Do you correct your dog for growling at other dogs? This could be why he bites puppies, instead of just growling at them... If you train the growl outta your dog, you will get a dog that gives no warning signals, but instead, bites first, ask questions later. This is the main reason behind "Unprovoked Attacks" on dogs and other children.

Learn to read your dogs body language and calming signals, He may be showing stress/anxiety without you knowing. There is a book out called "How to Speak Dog" by Stanley Coren which can help with the language barrier.

[lange]

I also agree that you shouldn't keep him away from other dogs unless, at any given time, you won't be able to focus on him 100% & correct behaviors. I would start off in smaller, controlled settings & move up from there. That way you & Charlie both gain confidence as you practice & up the anty. You won't always know the temperament of another dog so it's just a matter of observing & stepping in at the first sign. BTW a timid dog isn't dominate but it can lead to it over compensating in an aggressive way.

As for how to correct his behavior, you could try the clicker training Deafdogsrule mentioned (which may even be an easier route) or you could work with calming/treat/redirection when he shows uncertainty or agitation.

Some sites to give you some ideas: Read Section: 'My dog is already aggressive to other dogs. What can I do?'

stop-dog-aggressive-toward-other-dogs.html

Your dog isn't dog aggressive in the typical sense you hear of it. He sounds like he's reactive. Him being neutered is a big plus here.

The key for you is reading the cue's off all the dogs that are around. Any dog that isn't relaxed you should be paying attention to. If your dog starts focusing on the dog that isn't relaxed (or is showing signs of agitation or is being too assertive, this goes for either dog!) you step in, focus and start redirecting your dog or clicker training, which ever you're practicing. You'll be teaching your dog that nothing bad will happen & that you'll take charge. You'll then validate the behavior you want from him.

If your dog can stay calm then it should help the other dog ignore your dog or help calm the other dog at the same time. But from going on what you said, it is your dog who physically escalates with the pressure so your dog should be your first priority.

Don't forget you can leash him when you feel things aren't going well & briskly walk away. Refocus him to you & being calm, then move on to whatever you choose.

I'll ditto Deafdogsrule in suggesting you pick up dog books, they're valuable tools (love em!). Otherwise, you can search online for 'dog body language' since this is key for you. You can also watch dog shows to see dog cues in a neutral perspective.

[hugheseo]

Thank you guys so much. Very helpful. Here is what I'm taking away from this, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Be attentive of all new dogs, Both their behavior and Charlie's. Be on the look out for non-playful agitation.

2. If Charlie appears agitated; refocus him and calm him down, be calm myself and give positive reinforcement to Charlie. If he growls, do not correct him, but refocus him. Remove him if agitation it continues.

3. If snapping or biting occurs, correct him immediately.

He is very responsive to negative reinforcement (not abuse, you know.... yelling and demonstrative touching). So much so that it doesn't take much to correct him normally. My worry is that with the increased adrenaline of a biting dog, any negative reinforcement may be shrugged off. I have been told this before: Negative reinforcement is much less effective when dogs are excited because they are willing to run the risk of displeasing their owner because the reward is too tempting. I would imagine that is also true when agitated or biting. Should I step up the negative when he bites? Should I yell at him until he submits (rolls on his back)? Am I approaching this the wrong way?

[Deafdogsrule]

I wouldn't correct his behaviour if he escalates, imo. He is reactive, and punishing him in the presence of other dogs can make him more fearful. (I see dog, I'm scared of dog, my owner attacks me because of dog, dog=BAD) When I screw up, and let Ollie past his threshold before he's ready, and he reacts, I just calmly let him react (I never take Ollie anywhere where there may be off leash dogs) then click for calm behaviour... sometimes I have to ask the other owner to back their dog up a bit before Ollie calms, but once he's calm, I click and treat rapidly. then move away from the dog, so he gets double reinforcement (away from scary dog, and treats!!!)

I dont make my dogs submit to me either. I am a leader to my dogs, but not a pack leader (I dont believe in the pack theory) I give my dogs rules and guidelines, but with PR instead of NR. The worst correction I'll give my dog is "Ah". My dogs are walked without the use of adversive tools. With my reactive dog, I use a front clip harness, which helps me control his body, without causing him pain.

If you were scared of say, cats, and you were punished everytime you went near cats, because you yelled "ahhhh I hate cats, get me away!" You would hate cats soooo much more. You may tolerate being near them, because you have to, but your mind will be in severe fear, anxiety and stress. On the other hand, if you were given $50 every time you went near a cat calmly, you would be alot more willing to go near them, and stay calm, and eventually, you could be shown how nice they are.

Dogs think and reason, but not in the same way we do. they are much simpler in their thought patterns, you may think your dog should be able to reason out that a dog isn't going to hurt him, but he is not human, and you need to learn how to read what your dog is thinking.

You've got some very good advice from the others too. and luckily, your dog is only sometimes reactive. Good luck!

[cigwyllt]

If you were scared of say, cats, and you were punished everytime you went near cats, because you yelled "ahhhh I hate cats, get me away!" You would hate cats soooo much more. You may tolerate being near them, because you have to, but your mind will be in severe fear, anxiety and stress. On the other hand, if you were given $50 every time you went near a cat calmly, you would be alot more willing to go near them, and stay calm, and eventually, you could be shown how nice they are.

That is the clearest explanation of Positive/Negative reinforcement I have ever read. Brilliant.

[lange]

Originally Posted by hugheseo

He is very responsive to negative reinforcement (not abuse, you know.... yelling and demonstrative touching). So much so that it doesn't take much to correct him normally. My worry is that with the increased adrenaline of a biting dog, any negative reinforcement may be shrugged off. I have been told this before: Negative reinforcement is much less effective when dogs are excited because they are willing to run the risk of displeasing their owner because the reward is too tempting. I would imagine that is also true when agitated or biting. Should I step up the negative when he bites? Should I yell at him until he submits (rolls on his back)? Am I approaching this the wrong way?

When I correct a dog I vocalize; AYYyyee... EEEhhh.. EEassy. With these sounds I start off louder, higher pitched & attention grabbing then I start ending it in a lower, slower sound. It's similar to how horse trainers train horses from my understanding. Grab attention....then slllow down the energy.

Then when I want a dog to react fast, with high energy, I say something that sounds continually high & fast, like a clickclick sound with my tounge...fast, short repetitive whistling... fast repetitive kissing sounds..ect. I feel it helps set the mindset I'm wanting from the dog. I may just be crazy..who knows! I even do this with kids. But not so much the clicking & whistling! LOL (Yes I;m officially a little nuts)...I use words but hopefully you get the idea. It works for me, always has. Then of course the follow through comes after, I step in & reinforce what I want accordingly.

(You probably think I'm nuts but I have a point here! Honest. lol....)

If a dog is agitated or highly aroused in a negative manner, you want to slow them down, not rile them up. So your shouting & physical touches will feed into the dog who is already over-stimulated. In a potential fight you may even trigger the other dog to react against your dog because of it. Some owners will even get bitten by their own dogs when grabbed. It's very chaotic at that point to try to rationalize a dog. That's why it is best to calm the dog before it gets to that point. What you do may have worked for you sometimes but it may not always. Then you'll trigger the negative connotations Deafdogsrule talked about.

Ideally you want to stop it from getting escalated.

Last thing, Deafdogsrule brought up another good point on the harness! With dogs that are reactive or aggressive you'd do better with a head or chest halter. It doesn't add more physical stimuli to a dog that is already over stimulated.

[hugheseo]

I really appreciate the help guys! all great stuff. I have to admit that i wasn't sure what i was going to get from this, but i guess I was hoping that my dog fit some type of behavioral standard that was well observed and that people had success with. What I got was great, a perspective about how i can better protect Charlie and his future friends.

I do have a few items here and there. Charlie is off leash for most of his life. We have trained him to be an off leash dog. He is attentive and focused. it is only when I lose concentration on him that the fights occur. I value taking him to off leash parks, and he has never had a problem at those parks. I value his freedom off leash, and will put him on leash only if it's a last resort. There HAVE been situations that he has exibited the signs of intolerance where I have called him to my side and he is fine, but never at parks. I apologize that i bounce back and forth between needing help and being defensive, but everyone walks into these things with preconceptions and here are mine:

I do believe in negative reinforcement. again, not abuse. yelling qualifies, as does demonstrative touching, and forced (non physical) submission for egregious breaches. Different dogs have different temperaments, so I understand if this approach does not work for all dogs (particularly insecure or timid dogs). I believe it would be a shame to minimize your range of reinforcement from approval and disaproval to approval and disinterest.

if you guys think my approach may exacerbate these problems, please argue your perspective. I'd be happy to hear it. I believe that the millions of working dogs that have learned through carrots and sticks (metaphorical) are not subjects of antiquated cruelties, but effecive and responsible tools for permitting safe freedom.

I don't think any of you guys have been debating me on this so far, but please tell me if you think I am way off base. Thanks.

[Deafdogsrule]

Your dog doesn't react in parks, because he feels confident he can get away, and as he's been going to those places since he was a puppy, he feels comfortable there... Also, you are probably feeling very relaxed, and that transmits to him. In the situation you described, he was not feeling comfortable, and probably felt confined, and unable to get away, so therefor reacted to the other dogs challenge, instead of getting away.

I will say this, punishing fear will only make it worse, as the dog cant trust you to protect him. Feel free to work with your dog however you see fit, as he is your dog, and only you know him... but in my experience with working with reactive dogs, aggression begets aggression. meaning, punishing a dog for reacting will only make the problems worse, imo

[hugheseo]

Point well taken that NR for aggression may be misplaced, I will take that advice for sure. My argument was for NR in general.

[lange]

We all have different backgrounds, different experiences, different opinions. With that said & being totally off topic from your specific situation with Charlie....

I don't think yelling for attention or displeasure is wrong. But I don't think it's always appropriate. I also use touch for attention grabbing & sometimes I physically touch to get my dogs to follow through (i seem to be using it like crazy w/Kuma for sitting right now, even though she knows what I want). Sometimes I firmly tap with my hand when let's say Kuma goes after Wrigley when he's simply trying to come in through the door. I'm not being harsh or mad. Is that considered negative reinforcement? I don't know...so much is personal perspective.

Now, if Kuma, for instance, was for some reason ready to strike out at another dog I would not physically correct her because I could see her reacting very badly at that point. There are different intensities in dogs, different personalities & in any given situation it changes..it's always fluid. That's why it's never easy to give generalizations of whether I personally agree or disagree. I think most tools are just that, tools. And you use the appropriate one's at the appropriate time.

For instance, I don't think alpha rolling is horrible. But I think it can do a lot more damage then good in most situations. If you alpha roll a submissive or insecure dog you are only reinforcing insecurities when you should be working on building their confidence. If you alpha roll an aggressive or dominate dog you are likely to lose the challenge & reinforce the dogs mindset. If you alpha roll your average tempered dog, no big deal.
Yet with any of these dogs, you can gain a more concrete position as alpha if you work it in every day in a non confrontational way. What dog of any personality or breed can't respect that?

I know I've often heard dogs are not kids. I personally don't get that because, for me, I think they are. They both need routine, consistency, set boundaries, responsibilities, deserve respect & be able to depend on fair & firm leadership. That's why I believe dogs blend into our families so well.

With that I'll step off the soapbox

[hugheseo]

I actually think we overlap in opinion a lot. He is what I mean by use of NR. When chalie and I walk through the woods near my house, he may see a squirrel that he would want to chase (aside: he has caught up to them before, and doesn't know what to do). The problem in my mind is that there is a parking lot near by and cars do drive through it, occasionally recklessly. Instead of

1. leashing my dog in an environment that he may like to explore safely
or
2. using positive reinforcement to train him to stay by my side despite the squirrel

I have found that as he cues up to the squirrel I make calm statements like, "come on charlie". If he starts after the squirrel, I will immediately jump to "HEY HEY HEY" in a very loud sharp tone. He will generally stop right then, and I will say " Come back here!" again sternly. When he returns to me I praise him. That is what NR is for us now. Early on we used an electronic collar. Some think this is cruel, I debated it myself. I can tell you this. The model we got was a training model that conditioned a sound with the small shock. This was so that eventually, no shock at all was needed and the sound was sufficient. I can also tell you that it was incredibly effective. I never shocked him with anything I didn't try out on myself first, and only to train him so that he could have that freedom of movement while staying safe. We no longer need/use the electronic trainer.