[Mann]

Alright let me sorta set up the situation before the questions.

I have had Great Pyrenees in my household for the past 16 years . IMO they are great dogs for a number of reasons that Im not going to go into now. Its really not relative. I got married and bought a house 2 years ago. We decided that we wanted to get a pet, and decided a dog. I love Great Pyrenees, and we decided to get one. My parrents allowed me to have their 10 month old female Great Pyrenees "Sugar Baby" as she was causing problems with some of the baby goats. (They still had 4 other great pyrenees).

I have always beleived that pets should have a friend so we got a second great pyrenees this one a male "Max". The female is now 23 months old and the male almost 11 months old. We decided to allow them to mate before having Max fixed.

Both dogs are AKC registered, and Max's parrents are COFA registered(I think thats what the paperwork reads) Which means that they have had their bone structures certified. They both come from seperate bloodlines. Max has over 75 champions in his blood line. Both dogs are pure white, and in great health. Both have great coats, are average weight.Their last vet visit (we pay the vet to come to us as its more comfortable for the dogs, and they weigh a ton) the vet said they were in good health, and should be fine to breed.

Sugar Baby is now in heat (day 16) and they have been "mating" for a few days. I knew her last cycle, and knew when to expect this cycle. I would check her every night so I am fairly positive on status.

At first Sugar Baby wouldn't let him mount her, however the past 4-5 days she has given the OK and sorta moved her tail to the side when he mounts her. The problem I am having is that I have yet to see him "come out". It seems that his "male organ" is not coming out of him (ie not getting an erection), or going into her. I have been watching around the clock, and have never seen it come out. Is he too young to mate? If so what is the correct age to mate? Why is he not able to have sex with her? If she doesnt take I will probally have the vet come out before her next cycle to help with breeding.

I know that breeding should be left to the "professionals" but I would like to breed these two dogs. My parrents have recently lost 2 of their old great pyrenees, and another is 8 years old (avg age is 8-9, but we have never had one die that was less than 10). I am wanting to give them 4-6 of them for their farm, as they have recently expanded their farm, and need guard dogs to train for their goats.

Just a note: Time and money are no option for the puppies. I have personally raised many animals from day 1 to healthy pets (yes feeding every 3-4 hr a day). I/my family have many animals/pets, and would never allow a pet to go to an bad family.

[susanatlasinski]

When breeding both parents MUST be health screened before the mating takes place, otherwise if there are any problems then it's too late if the bitch is already pregnant or pups born. They both should be hip scored and if you are in the US I'm sure they have to be at least 2 years old which means that both are too young to have this done, in the UK they have to be over 12 months. Then there are other tests that should be done e.g. Heart test, thyroid, eye tests elbow scoring to name a few, the AKC or breed club will be able to advise what tests are recomended for this particular breed.

Although the dog has good size, coat and champions in their pedigree these things alone don't make the dogs worthy of breeding. The whole aim in breeding is to improve the breed, Your dogs also need to have the correct body structure, soundness and temperament too. Do your dogs have the correct shoulder and stifle angulation for the breed? do they have the correct bite? Does he have both testicles fully decended? Do they have the correct head shape for the breed according to the breed standard? Your young dog will still be very immature so it will be a while yet before you will know how good an example of the breed he is.

I have seen many dogs of lots of different breeds that have very impressive pedigrees but they are not good examples of their breed and shouldn't be bred on from.

If you are determined to breed please do the relevant health check on both dogs before breeding to try to make sure you are breeding healthy dogs, let the puppy mature first and get advice from an expert in the breed like someone who exhibits top winning dogs in conformation or someone who judges the breed to see whether the dogs are good enough examples of the breed to be bred from. Lastly breeding puppies is a lifelong responsibility,you must be prepared to take any of the puppies back at any time in their lives to rehome them if their owners connot keep them.

[Mann]

As far as my knowledge on the subject of breeding I know that I am no Professional at it. That is probally obvious by me posting on these forums.

I am pretty sure that Max is not old enough and does not have enough experience to mate at the current time.

First off Cost is NO option if something goes wrong with Sugar Baby or her pups. I have paid for vet bills for animals who didnt make it, and strongly beleive that ones pets should be treated as their child.

As far as causing harm to my pets Sugar Baby and Max I do not beleive that giving birth is cause "great pain" for her. Yes I know that no one expects death, however both are healthy average weight animals. Like I said earlier all of the GPs that I have owned/raised have made it past 10 years. Our oldest being 14. (The oldest one our vet has ever worked on and he is in his 70s).

I am currently in the process of finding a vet that will perform OFA certifications without putting the dog on anesthea (sp?).

My parrents grew up on farms, and now own two of them. They raise goats for personal pleasure only (Never selling/ giving them away) they would love for nothing else for me to give them the whole litter (they are only in late 40s and fully capable of taking care of them). The night before my wedding we were giving birth to minuature goats. I know/realize the sacrifices that have to be made for pets.

Yes you are correct on grooming GPs They need to be brushed at least bi monthly, and more during the summer months to prevent "hot spots"

If I could find good certified GPs locally this would be a much better option. We had to travel 2 hr to get Sugar Baby, and 4 hr to find Max(one way) Locally there is not a huge market for GPs and when you find people selling/giving them away there are usually no purebreeds. (Not all of the traits are included, and usually mixed)

I am by no means in this for a profit. The only way that I could make a profit on them as of now is to have 12 litters consisting of 10 pups each time and selling them for 5-600 a piece. These dogs make great guard/farm dogs, and we would like to breed them for "work" dogs/pets (none of our animals really work). I would like Sugar Baby to have one maybe two litters depending on the litter count. Both parrents have great temperments/traits that we would like to continue.

We have never taken an animal to a shelter, and are usually the person that people drop their animals off at when they no longer want them. I personally have bottle fed many cats and dogs, and my parrents have done the same with goats,rabbits,chickens, 1 skunk (hit by a car), and prob. more that i am forgetting.

These puppies will only go to family members, and people who I personally know.

I appriciate your opinion, and beleive tha most people should hear it before deciding to breed. I agree that there are way too many animals in the world who need good "parrents". I feel that I do my part by taking in strays and having them spaded or neutered and giving them a place to live and food to eat. I know that I am a responsible breeder, and am willing to take on the responsibilities that that will occur.

[Mann]

Yes they do have to be 24 months old to have an "adult certification" by the OFA. They can have them done as young as 12 months, and then later updated.

Our vets "deemed" them as 100% healthy dogs. I know that this does not take any gene defects into consideration, but they seem to know what they are doing with farm animals so I trust their judgement.

"in the breed like someone who exhibits top winning dogs in conformation"

These are not show dogs. I dont agree with show dogs, and view it the same as "living through your children". As I stated before GPs are not common around here, and there is not many if any "professionals" with this breed.

I would take any unwanted puppy back in a heart beat. I too agree that there are many unresponsible parrents/breeders in the world today. (Thats how we have ended up with @20 cats)

I know most of you are thinking there is no way possible that this kid has as many animals as he says. I/my parrents do. My parrents have 3 boys (me and two brothers), and we have always taken care of any/every animal that has needed help. Together we have 30-40 chickens, 4 turkeys, 20-30 ducks, 60-70 goats, @20 cats, 2 maltease, 1 toy terrior (Dont know if he is pure bread. He just wandered in off the road one day), 6 GPs (4 of them from rescue shelter/ peop gettin rid of them), 1 lab/chow/ somehting mix, 1 collie, 1 cocketeal, 1 blue bird(not sure on breed), a few fish tanks, a frog, 4 rabbits, 1 or 2 gerbils and I am sure something else that I am forgetting. These animals live at multiple properties, and are all well taken care of (all have barns, food, pond/stream, and most important LOVE.)

As stated in my first post I am just tring to get help with my male GP who I beleive is too young to breed. Most articles/books state that he is mature at 6 months. I am wondering if there is something different with GPs as I would think that different breeds have different time periods.

[susanatlasinski]

Show dogs are different, sure their owners love them but they are not truly & honestly pets. If your dogs have titles in herding, exc. I say go for it, if not, why breed more mediocre dogs?

In reply to Dalshep's comment

Although I have to agree with a lot of what you are saying, I am slightly offended by the above comment. My 6 Siberians have all at one time been show dogs and have also worked in harness, the youngest is daughter of an Iditarod veteran. they are all first and foremost family pets who live in the home as part of my family. I have been showing dogs since the early 80's and I am a championship show judge as well as a veterinary nurse and vet's wife. In the Uk the majority of people showing dogs keep their dogs as family pets, showing is a hobby and not a business, from your comments, I can only imagine things are different in the US.

I have worked in breed welfare and I know only too well the problems caused by irrisponsible breeders but we shouldn't forget that there are many responsible breeders who care deeply about their chosen breed.

You may not think that conformation is not all that important but it is that attitude that can destroy a breed. It is the conformation and characteristics that makes each breed different and individual. It is also the correct conformation that makes the dog capable of doing the job it was originally bred for, something that all breeders should be aiming for. For example in my breed, a Siberian Husky with a tight curly tail will often lack rear drive, straight pasterns do not have shock absorbtion, straight shoulders and short upper arm restricts front movement, a long fluffy coat will become waterlogged, all of these things may seem trivial to you but all will affect the dog's performance as a working sled dog.


Our vets "deemed" them as 100% healthy dogs. I know that this does not take any gene defects into consideration, but they seem to know what they are doing with farm animals so I trust their judgement.

In reply to Mann

No matter how good you feel your vets are they cannot certify a dog fit for breeding unless it has had and passed it's health tests. Eyes need to be tested by an opthalmologist, Blood samples to test thyroid, xrays for hips and elbows. No dog should be bred from unless these tests are done no matter how good you think they are. You are unwilling to have xrays done with an anaesthetic but are willing to breed with the high risks involved and the possibility of a ceasarian.

I have worked in Large animal practice and wouldn't let some of the vets anywhere near my dogs, they were brilliant equine or cattle vets but hopeless with small animals (they would admit this themselves) You really need a good small animal Vet who is constantly dealing with dogs/cats/rabbits etc and not spending most of their time with farm animals.

[tavollbracht]

I must say that this is an interesting read.

I breed cavalier king charles spaniels, which are a breed very common here in the UK. I have only had one litter to date and have been a 'breeder' for two years.

I can say without a doubt, that watching my 'baby' go through labour, pushing out the puppies, crying in pain, nursing them, loosing hair, not sleeping well, missing out because she is always with the puppies. (she was not able to do the normal tri weekly beach walks for a month!) that it is very hard on a dog to have a litter.

I understand that sugar baby is your pet, the same way that penny is my pet. Once I sat with her during her labour it really opened my eyes as to what she goes through. It was the same thing I went through, exept I only had one kid!

The max litter size for my breed is 6-7, not 10! I am sure you understand the potential for major problems, there is that potential in everything we do in life.

I do feel however that you have already considered what you need to. You have homes, you have healthy animals, and more important than anything, you have love. You are not a puppy mill farmer, and I think that you seem very responsible.

I use to own Newfoundlands. My parents were breeders, they are huge dogs, with huge litters, and not finding a home for three would be hard. You have already considered all these things. Feel good that you have taken so much time to think about it first. I feel you have a sound reason board. You are not wanting to be a professional dog breeder, not that is is profitable, but you are wanting what is best for your dogs. Follow your heart is really all I am trying to say.

I know that I go against the rising population of dogs that are needing new homes and that get put down every day. It is a tragedy! but realisticly you would not impact that.

Good luck, if they did tie, you should have pups any day now. If not, there is always next season. My very best wishes.

[lespring]

If done THE RIGHT WAY...typical costs for breeding large breed dogs:

One Time Expenses* (per breeding dog):
Hip Testing
Penn Hip Test (after age 16 weeks)
$450.00
OR
OR
OFA ($150.00 + filing and reading fee’s $25.00 per test, two tests required)
$350.00
*The OFA test cannot provide a conclusive result prior to age 2.The first test is only regarded as a preliminary test. The test must be done again after age 2 for final determination. Generally, the second test will be the same as the first or in many cases it gets worse. It is rare, if maybe even never, do the tests results improve.

Elbows (Test $100.00 + filing and reading fee’s $25.00 per test)
$250.00

Test can be done at the same time that the hips are done.
Heart Screening
$90.00

In addition:
Some breeds need to be tested for VonWildebrands Disease (DNA)
$140.00

Pre-Breeding Tests for Sexually Transmitted Disease
(to be done before every breeding with a stud dog)
$50.00

On-going Yearly Expenses (per breeding dog):
Heartworm, Flea and Tick preventative
$100.00

Yearly Veterinarian check, Heartworm tests, fecal exam and regionally appropriate tests
$75.00

Eye Screening (CERF)
$90.00

Whelping Area Supplies:

Laminated box with whelping ring
$350.00
Reference books including Canine First Aid book, thermometer, bulb syringe, heat lamps, or fans, nail clippers, bedding, scale, puppy replacement milk, bottle and/or tube feeding supplies, hemostats
$250.00

Standard Medical Care Expenses After Birth (per puppy – must multiply this amount by the total puppies in the litter. You may be able to obtain a group rate with multiple puppies.):

De-worming (minimum of 4 times by 8 weeks)
$4.00

Vaccinations (first round – Parvovirus, Distemper,
Distemper-Measles Virus, Adenovirus, Bordetella Bronchiseptica)
$15.00

Veterinarian Health Certificate or Check up for each puppy
$35.00

Why: The expense of breeding responsibly can impact the quality of the puppies you produce. Not being realistic can put your mother and the litter at risk. Spending the money to screen for disease can prevent some diseases and reduce the risk of other diseases. Spending the money to provide the right environment with the right supplies could be the difference between a live or a dead puppy. Spending the money to properly care for the health of the whole litter will be expected from the educated potential owner.

Dogfood: A pregnant bitch food intake goes up dramatically while pregnant. When nursing she often eats as much as THREE TIMES her normal amount to keep up her milk production. She will go through as much as 3 gallons of water PER DAY as well.

Once puppies are started on food, (usually that transition starts around 3-4 weeks but they don't depend on it for thier sole source of nutrition till around 5-6 weeks) you can expect to go through approximately 80 lbs of food per week just for the puppies. You need to be feeding a QUALITY dog food, and can expect to spend $1.00 per lb (more in some areas).

What about spay/neuters? If you do early spay neuters it will run anywhere from $150-$250 per puppy. Doing early spay neuters ensures that the people who get your puppies do not, themselves, become irresponsible breeders.

So, total cost for being a responsible breeder is $2,379 (or $137.90 per pup if you have a litter of 10)

What this doesn't cover is the cost of an emergency c-section should the bitch end up in trouble. You can expect that to run around $4,000 for a GP.

Not all dogs are good mothers, and not all dogs produce enough milk for all their puppies. If you end up having to supplement them, I can tell you to bottle 13 puppies takes about an hour and a half. (Many breeder choose to tube feed them instead.) Multiply that x how many times a day you need to do it, and you could be spending as much as 12 hours per day doing nothing but bottle feeding puppies.