I've been through a very bad experience with my purebred miniature schnauzers. At the beginning of this year, we had two mini schnauzers, Lacie and Zoe. They were sister dogs (same) dam/sire parents, just different litters. This past February, Lacie died unexpectedly in her sleep...she was only a year and a half old. I was devestated. This was my 'little girl', she was just a baby. Our five year old little boy witnessed my reaction when I realized that she had passed away. It was a very horrible day.

I wanted to have an autopsy done because I wanted to know why she died. My parents and husband finally helped me to realize that a)we couldn't afford it, and b) it wouldn't bring her back. Before we had her cremated, we gave the breeder the opportunity to have an autopsy done, she refused. She was convinced that Lacie was poisioned...she even suggested to me that a raven could have flown over my backyard and dropped something toxic, and that is why Lacie died.

The next two weeks that followed were very hard. I couldn't stop crying. Our little boy was having nightmares and Zoe, our other schanuzer, was barely eating and showing signs that she was depressed.

Thinking that things couldn't get any worse, Zoe who had just turned 2, became sick. We immediately took her to the vet. After diagnostic testing we discovered that most of her liver is missing; causing several of her organs to be displaced. She may have a liver shunt, and she had Pancreatitis. Zoe was not overweight and we never fed her table scraps.

Without acusation, I notified the breeder...thinking that she would care and want to know what was happening. I got the classic "none of my dogs have ever been sick before".

My vet confirmed that Zoe's condition was genetic and he generated a letter to support that both he and a specialist agreed her condition was congenital and genetic. I provided this letter to the breeder as per her request.

The breeder responded by mailing me a letter advising me to "return the unsatisfactory merchandise for a store credit". We were offered another dog or "as a special favour from her" , a refund....but ONLY if we returned Zoe to her.

First of all, Zoe is a member of our family, she is not "returnable", and furthermore, I did not buy a toaster from Walmart...Zoe is not merchandise. How could she ask that of us, especially after she knew what we went through with losing Lacie? I put my feelings aside and asked the breeder to think of our son. I tried to explain to her how much he had bonded with Zoe since we lost Lacie, and how it would affect him if we had to give her up. The breeder wouldn't even respond.

Returning Zoe was NOT an option. Things just didn't measure up. What was happening with our dogs was not a coinsidence. My instincts told me that there was more to the story. We felt betrayed, heartbroken and ripped off.

Funny thing is that when we first got our dogs, the breeder seemed to be very nice. But as soon as there was a problem...she wasn't so nice anymore.

I started making calls and researching canine genetics. I knew that I had to do something. I couldn't just let this breeder walk away like we didn't exist. She showed zero compasion and zero accountability. Over and over, she proved to us that she just didn't care. She even told me that I was "lucky that she even has a guarantee" and that "most breeders have none", and that she "could have easily told us, too bad, so sad, see you around". The breeder would only honour her guarantee if I gave her Zoe...which was never indicated on her guarantee. Her guarantee was vague, poorly written and was not signed or dated. I contacted a lawyer and was informed that because of this, she had nothing to protect her in court.

I did take the breeder to court. I also discovered and provided proof to the court that there were significant genetic problems in the bloodlines of my dogs. Six months later, a judge signed a court order...I got my money back for Zoe, and Zoe remains with her family...where she belongs.

Zoe has been sick several times since I won my case. We thought we were going to lose her about a month ago. We now know that something is also wrong with her intestines and bowels. She is responding well to medication...and for now, has quality of life. We take it day by day, no one knows what tomorrow will bring. I appreciate every day that I have her in our lives. She's been through so much.

I am now in the process of creating my own website to help people that want to buy a purebred dog. I want it to be a consumer protection site for puppy buyers. I am also seeking legal advice because I want people to be able to report bad breeders and also be able to commend good breeders. I think that the public would benefit because it could be used to expose non-reputable breeders. Bad breeders discredit all breeders!

There are no laws or legislation (in Canada) that protect people from bad breeding practices. I can only hope that my website will help people make wise and informed decisions before buying a dog.

If anyone has any ideas, or input regarding my experience or this website (currently being created), please do not hesitate to respond.

Thank you for taking the time to read my story.

What a horrible uncaring person that breeder is. I am so sorry you have lost one baby and have the other one ill. I am so glad you won the day in court. I hope that Zoe can be sorted out by the vet and she lives a happy long life. Please give her a hug from me.-----Aggy

i am so sorry to here about the loss of your dog, i can really sympathise as my family lost a puppy very young for no known reasons (at the time) and although it has been four years we still have regular tears about the loss of our standard poodle murphy, we purchased another puppy from the same breeder believing him to be reputable but unfortunately Louis has a blood disorder Von Willebrands, caused by bad breeding, just before Louis was diagnosed we took an ex-breeding bitch from the breeder and have since found out that the reason she seems to walk a bit strange is because she was bred far to young.
we dont know quite how to approach this breeder especially since he is currently in hospital and is retiring, he offered us two dogs that he said were "surplus to requirements" due to his ill health but we felt we had to refuse rather that continue looking after dogs that he has used and abused we simply cannot afford the vets payments although it breaks our hearts.
i used to think buying puppies from well known breeders was the responsible thing to do but would now steer clear of anyone who breeds on a large scale because i personally feel that some of them are only in it for the money.
there definately needs to be more laws about the breeding of dogs to prevent all the dogs in unnessasary pain because of ill breeding and the heart ache it causes loving owners -x-

Very weird....I just read something almost identical to your post on another forum, except that the dog in question was a white shepherd pup that the new owners had discovered many genetic flaws....the breeder wouldn't even acknowledge the truth and isn't responding to their querries. The pup is alive but will not be usable for the intent it was advertised and that the new owners were looking for. Guess it happens in every breed.

People have got to do their reseach & not deal with byb's. reputable, responsible breeders are few & far between.

they don't breed a dog until they have a list of approved homes. they don't ship puppies, sell to pet shops or advertise in newspapers. their puppies don't leave home until at least 12 weeks so until 14 weeks

here is some excellent info ( except the age )

HOW TO RECOGNIZE A REPUTABLE DOG BREEDER

as for the website I truly would not advise doing that. think about it - what will prevent one breeder from writing in bad info on a competitor? certainly you don't believe everyone who posts on message boards is honest, truthful & trustworthy do you?

what would stop someone who is pissed because a GOOD breeder turned them down from writing some nasty lies about them. you have no way of knowing if the info is true or not

Re suebgone reply:

I absolutely agree with you regarding the website. I consulted with a lawyer to find out what I needed to be aware of as far as legal issues that would be associated by creating this type of website. Inevitably, it would probably result in more negativity than anything else - and that is not what I want. I also don't want to be responsible for someone's reputation being unfairly damaged. There would be no way for me to determine if people were telling the truth or not. Trust me, I've given it a lot of thought, and I do agree with you.

I live in a small town, word-of-mouth can be a very powerful thing. I really don't have to do anything...she is ruining her reputation as a breeder all on her very own.

I just wish there was more I could do because these dogs deserve so much more than that.

one thing you could do is to print out information such as the link I provided you, & educate people about the difference in breeders. perhaps post on bulletin boards

you can speak from experience which more people will listen to.

write a letter to the editor as to what people should look for in a responsible breeder

that way you are taking a neutral stand & no names need to be used.

you could also promote shelter & rescue dogs instead of going to a breeder at all, thereby saving 3 lives at once

some web sites that may interest you

prisonersofgreed.org - nopuppymills.com - HSUS

i agree with you, once you get your new baby you can't just hand it over to someone that is not the way it works with people that really love their pets.. they are part of the family just like our children sometimes they are spoiled lots more than our children ever were, but i am glad that you reported her and that you won your case, i hope that you and your baby will have a long time together yet.. i have 5 little babies and i know what you mean about family my oldest is a peek a poo she is 14 and i love her to death i have had her since she was 3 months old and now she is starting to go deaf and she is just about blind but she will still try to play like a pup she just bumps into stuff sometimes lol but until i have to she will always be right here with me.. good luck with your baby...

To the OP: I am truely sorry for what you've gone through, that was very wrong of the breeder. I'm glad that her reputation is getting destroyed, because she's harming not only the dogs, but also the humans that love the puppies they purchase.

To suebgone:

So let me see if I understand this correctly.
Any breeder that ships puppies, or lets their puppies leave home before 12-14 weeks of age is not reputable or responsible?

If this is what you mean, then I would assume that the majority of the breeders winning AKC Championships with their dogs, that have phenominal dogs, bred to other phenominal dogs, that produce amazing quality puppies that also win AKC championships are not reputable or responsible breeders because they will ship their puppies both Nationwide and Internationally... and if you pick the puppy up yourself you can pick it up as early as 7-8 weeks of age. Is that right?

Originally Posted by suebgone

People have got to do their reseach & not deal with byb's. reputable, responsible breeders are few & far between.

they don't breed a dog until they have a list of approved homes. they don't ship puppies, sell to pet shops or advertise in newspapers. their puppies don't leave home until at least 12 weeks so until 14 weeks

here is some excellent info ( except the age )

HOW TO RECOGNIZE A REPUTABLE DOG BREEDER

as for the website I truly would not advise doing that. think about it - what will prevent one breeder from writing in bad info on a competitor? certainly you don't believe everyone who posts on message boards is honest, truthful & trustworthy do you?

what would stop someone who is pissed because a GOOD breeder turned them down from writing some nasty lies about them. you have no way of knowing if the info is true or not

Good job schnauzermum your are great...I admire you in your action regarding Zoe's situation...You are a very nice and loving pet owner...I also support you in making a site to help people to find a good breeder...

[lil mutt]

nice idea!there are many people who are looking for a good breeder who are not only after for the money.

So let me see if I understand this correctly.
Any breeder that ships puppies, or lets their puppies leave home before 12-14 weeks of age is not reputable or responsible?

If this is what you mean, then I would assume that the majority of the breeders winning AKC Championships with their dogs, that have phenominal dogs, bred to other phenominal dogs, that produce amazing quality puppies that also win AKC championships are not reputable or responsible breeders because they will ship their puppies both Nationwide and Internationally... and if you pick the puppy up yourself you can pick it up as early as 7-8 weeks of age. Is that right?

do your AKC friends ship their puppies to any JQP anywhere? do they ship 6 week old, unvaccinated puppies to anyone that wants one? these are not the type breeder the average Joe will ever encounter.

Just for the record - I know several people that bred aussie's, chessie's, cockers & several others that no puppy leaves before 14 weeks.

I guess it all depends on your standards

Originally Posted by suebgone

So let me see if I understand this correctly.
Any breeder that ships puppies, or lets their puppies leave home before 12-14 weeks of age is not reputable or responsible?

If this is what you mean, then I would assume that the majority of the breeders winning AKC Championships with their dogs, that have phenominal dogs, bred to other phenominal dogs, that produce amazing quality puppies that also win AKC championships are not reputable or responsible breeders because they will ship their puppies both Nationwide and Internationally... and if you pick the puppy up yourself you can pick it up as early as 7-8 weeks of age. Is that right?

do your AKC friends ship their puppies to any JQP anywhere? do they ship 6 week old, unvaccinated puppies to anyone that wants one? these are not the type breeder the average Joe will ever encounter.

Just for the record - I know several people that bred aussie's, chessie's, cockers & several others that no puppy leaves before 14 weeks.

I guess it all depends on your standards

I am not saying they are my friends..... I was asking if what I read from your post was correct.

I've never heard of shipping a puppy through the air lines before 12-14 weeks.....

however I have seen, heard of and even met AKC breeders that own,show, and breed champions. That ship internationally and nationwide, and will allow you to personally pick the puppy up at 7-8 weeks of age.

I do not believe this makes them irresponsible or non-reputable breeders.

I would buy a puppy from a kennel like "Kimbertal Kennels" any day of the week... and am considering doing so in the next year or so.

well, oakie there are thousands of infants being shipped much to young. check with any vet about it, if the puppy even makes it to the vet. ask at any shelter about it. read ads for puppies for sale on almost any site.

you can't see how Mr. Yarnell's place is a puppy mill? look at the number of dogs he sells. he is licensed with the highest breeding kennel license there is in PA. a K-V ( 5 ) which means he can have any amount over 251 & he does.

did you notice he has 2 kinds of puppies for sale? do you know what breeder puppies are?
those are the ones he sells to any JQP that comes along. they have to sign a contract to bring the bitch back to be bred to the dog of his choice & then you take her home & pay the vet bills, take the risk & do all the work. when the puppies are old enough - they go back to him. that's how he can advertise "home raised" altho many are not

and I stand by what I said.

All one has to do is look up ads on craigslist.com for animal adoptions to see how screwed up breeders are anyway. There are a lot of sweet dogs needing homes and many irresponsible breeders and owners (and dog snobs) perpetuating a sad, sad problem.

If one were truly a dog lover and cared about those little lives out there, one would see this clearly and not support breeders.

First of all, I just want to say thank you to everyone that took the time to post such kind responses to my original post.

It has been over a year now since we lost Lacie, and I can honestly say that not a single day goes by that I don't think about her. I miss her more than words could ever say, and I just hope that she knows how much we truly loved her.

For what it's worth, I also wanted to say that even though there are a lot of irresponsible breeders out there that have no business breeding dogs, there are also good breeders out there, that love their dogs and breed their dogs with the highest level of standards and knowledge.

YES, there are way too many dogs out there that are in need of homes, and it is absolutely wonderful when someone can adopt a dog and give it a second chance at having the life that it deserves. BUT what we can't forget is that this is not always something that everyone can do.

When I went through what I did with my dogs, I wrote a letter to the editor to my local newspaper. It was published. A week later, an anonymous writer wrote a letter putting me down and telling me that it was my fault because I got my dog from a breeder instead of a pound or humane society. I so badly wanted to respond by letting this person know that we we couldn't adopt a dog from a pound or shelter because of my husband's allergies. A schnauzer was one of the only dogs that we could have that he could actually live with without having a serious reaction to!

I decided to leave it alone, and that it wasn't worth it to defend myself against someone that was capable of such ignorance.

When someone insinuates that it is breeders that are responsible for so many dogs that do not get adopted, I can't help wonder...why is the finger never pointed at the irresponsible people that don't bother to get their pets fixed, and as a result, end up with unwanted puppies that never find good homes?...or the people that get a dog and then just decide they don't want it anymore?...or the people that let their dogs wander and could care less where they end up?...there are so many reasons that this problem exists...yet it is breeders in general that are criticized along with the people that decide they want a purebred dog that are often hugely blamed for this problem.

It is not (reputable) breeders or the people that decide to get a purebred dog that are causing this epidemic.

It is the consequence of irresponsible people, puppy mills, pet stores, and as far as I'm concerned...idiots that have no sense of the word responsibility, that are initiating this problem.

It is not wrong to get a dog from a good breeder, and in choosing to do so, does not make you accountable or responsible for the fact that many dogs out there are in need of homes.

People decide to adopt dogs for many different reasons, and people also buy purebred dogs for many different reasons. No one has the right to put down or criticize someone for what they choose.

If that is the case, then people shouldn't have their own biological children either, because there are far too many children out there that need to be adopted! And the people that do have their own children are just perpetuating the problem!

...pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

That is horrible that a person could have the nerve to sell or even call themself a breeder. That is why it is so important as a dog buyer to do your research when looking for a puppy and make sure you get info and background on the breeder. Alot of breeders with offer a type of gurantee if they are a legit breeder.

Originally Posted by suebgone

do your AKC friends ship their puppies to any JQP anywhere? do they ship 6 week old, unvaccinated puppies to anyone that wants one? these are not the type breeder the average Joe will ever encounter.

Just for the record - I know several people that bred aussie's, chessie's, cockers & several others that no puppy leaves before 14 weeks.

I guess it all depends on your standards

What a good breeder does is question the potential owners about living conditions, the home, family, time that will be spent with the pup, etc. They also make sure the guarantee states that pups will get all required vaccinations in their new home, spayed/neutered, on LR and rabies. Unless it's a show quality pup, then FR, not spayed/neutered but (more than likely) on a co-ownership until pup is champion titled and has had proper health certs before breeding. They NEVER ship 6 wk old pups. Earliest is 8 wks old and vaccinated to approved homes.
If your "breeder" chooses to keep their pups til 14 wks that's their perogative. Most only do that with small breed dogs or those that are getting some sort of training before they leave (or if they'd like to see if they are going to be show quality - in which case it may be 6 mo of age before they go to their show home).

Hi Schnauzer mum,

That is a terrible story. I really feel for you. You need to report that breeder to the ANKC, as there are very strict guidelines and a 'code of ethics' to be followed when breeding. These people need to be accountable for what they are doing, and they should be responsable enough to stop breeding from the dog or dogs that are carrying the genetic trait that produced these pups. Its not fair on you, and its definitely not fair on the pups themselves to have such a poor quality of life. People should not be breeding as a way of generating money, they should be breeding with the vision of bettering the breed, with a genuine focus on quality not quantity. Very sad.

Thank you FATBOY Aussie Bulldogs. Aside from taking the breeder to small claims court, I did try to report her to the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) but unfortunately they gave me the whole spew on how they do not mandate or have any control over what a specific breeder does as far as breeding practices go!!! I was told that their listed breeding practices are only "suggestions" and that they have no control over whether or not a breeder follows their code of ethics, breeding standards, etc. They did say I could file a formal complaint, but that it would cost me a filing fee that was almost $300 which would basically give the breeder a slap on the wrist...if even that!!! The CKC was completely usless and they do not do anything to protect dogs. As far as I'm concerned they are basically just a useless organization that has one focus...profit.

I also contacted my local and Provincial humane societies, the MSCC (Miniature Schnauzer Club of Canada - which the breeder is not a member of) , lawyers, even my local MP, you name it! The reason I cannot do anything is because in Canada there is no existing law that protects dogs from these types of breeders. We have something called the Animal Pedigree Act, but it does nothing to protect the breed. Infact after reading it, I discovered that it actually protects the breeder more than anything!