It amazes me how strongly peoples opionions can be on forums like this. I asked a simple question and was labled and judged without anyone knowing the answers. The assumption was I was some hick breeder...... but it reality I have extermley smart beautifiul lab puppies with 8 generation's of health clearances including DNA. I asked one simple question but was labled. Yes, this is supplemental income and I love my puppies and our dogs. It is okay we make money we put money into it and I want people who are willing to pay and take care of the puppies responsiblily. I think like everthing in the world everyone has their own opionion and some feel strongly for different reasons but remember dogs are not like women their six month difference would be like women having babies every what 2-5 years. What has been done is what we know but I can tell you my dog births well has magnificent lines/heath and loves being a mother and seems to look stronger since have the last two births. She is a dog, and yes we love her and yes we are ethical and YES am I the only one who has the honesty to say we could use the extra money, this is some peoples income it is very different then a puppy mill. We screen owners because we love the puppies. If any of you do this and you say only for the breed it is a bunch of BS please lets be honest and realize those code of ethics from the AKC are regarding mill's not private ethical breeders. Quite frankly I think everyone who would breed only for the love of the breed and to not benifit financially would worry me . It is okay to make money when creating a quality product and being ethical it is assinine for everyone.

[reeskujo]

I can only speak for myself and the breeders I know.....We don't breed for the income although the little bit we profit is a plus....We don't need to breed for extra income...If it was about the money then we would get an additional job....We breed the particular breed of dog we do because of our love for the breed and with that comes the desire to better the breed and to breed to the highest quality and standard of that breed...A large portion of the money we make is rolled right back into the care of our dogs and puppies so the profit is very small...Certainly not enough to alleviate any financial strain...In fact if people need to breed because they need the money that's what would worry me!...If your income is not sufficient to meet your needs then how can it be enough to even start the breeding process and cover the expenses that come with it when you first start?...Your comment about those of us who say we breed simply to better a breed we love is BS maybe true for you but it certainly isn't for myself or the breeders I know!

What do you mean lets be honest? If I were honest I'd say I if I had a litter of 8 pups and sold everyone of them (which I keep a pup or two from my breedings) for $1000 that only be $8000. So I'd be losing at least $5000-6000.

Why does it worry you that people want to breed because they love the breed and don't want financial benefits from their dog? That doesn't even make sense.

If someone makes a profit that is fine. There is of course a difference between making a bit of money and running a puppy mill. It would seem in reality though that the profit isn't extra money/income. That it either covers the expense of owning the dogs or to put back into the dogs. Like if it cost x amount to breed and you get money thats not really a profit because you already spent x amount on the dogs. Or if you got x amount of money from pups you might use that to show next year or whatever.

[reeskujo]

I couldn't agree more CH_Venom...I guess it goes to show the difference between those that get into breeding for the love of the breed and those who get into it for the love of the money!

Perhaps I decided to write this reply because I have been so greatly affected by a bad breeder. I had two miniature schnauzers at the beginiing of this year. They were sisters, from the same breeder; same dam and sire parents, different litters.

Our youngest schnauzer, who was just a baby (at 1 1/2), passed away unexpectedly in her sleep. I will never forget that horrible morning when I discovered that she had died. Our 5 year old son witnessed my reaction...I was devestated. Losing her, to me, was like losing a child. Not a day goes by that I don't think of her.

Weeks after her passing, our other schnauzer (who had just turned 2), became very sick. We wasted no time and rushed her to the vet. It was then that we found out that most of her liver is missing, some of her internal organs are displaced, and she may have something called a liver shunt. We now also know that she also has Inflammatory Bowel Disease. My veterinarian generated a letter to confirm that our schnauzers health problems were due to genetic problems/conditions. Without pointing blame, I let the breeder know...thinking that she would be concerned.

...the breeder responded by sending me a letter in the mail stating to "return the unsatisfactory merchandise for a store credit".

To her, our dog; who is a member of our family, was nothing but defective 'merchandise'. We did not buy a toaster from a store! We paid for a dog that came from the breeder's home. We trusted this breeder and believed that she cared about her dogs and the people that received her dogs.

I was able to obtain significant evidence that genetic problems were prevalent within the bloodlines of my dogs. I did take legal action against this breeder which resulted in my favour. I just wish that a judge's order could bring back my 'little girl' that I lost, and take away my other dog's health problems.

I am not trying to imply that the dog breeder that initially wrote this thread 'northside lab', is like the breeder that I experienced. I respect that this breeder can step up to the plate and admit that she/he is profitting from breeding their dogs. However, there was one thing that she/he said that made me write this post...

"It is okay to make money when creating a quality product..."

To this breeder, and any other breeder that reads this reply: PLEASE do not...in any context...ever refer to your dogs as products, merchandise, goods, or any other way that implies that they are objects.

The dogs that you create are living creatures that deserve so much more than to be classified as objects.

Perhaps, given my experience, this is a very sensitive issue to me, but I think that anyone else in my shoes would feel exactly the same way.

[reeskujo]

Very well said and I completely agree!

northside - I agree, you are not a puppy mill, you don't qualify as a commercial breeder ( same thing ), they are large scale breeders with hundreds of dogs. you are simply an irresponsible, money grubbing back yard breeder

and what exactly are your "health clearences" & since when did DNA become a "health" issue.

yup, you love your puppies but they are a "product"??? hmmm

I'm going to disagree. Every good breeder I know hardly ever even breaks even. Having liters costs tons of money, even before the litter is ever even planed.
dog show costs.
traveling to dog show costs.
hotels for dog show costs.
proper genetic testing.
paying a stud fee (assuming you have a female dog)
pre natel care. X 2 or 3 visits.
ultra sound
al the supplies you need to raise a litter.
vet care for 5 puppies (we will just say 5 for a nice averege number) at what 3 or 4 vet appointments.
what if you need a emergency c-section? $1000.00 + bucks for that.
and then what if you sell 3 for 750 to pet quality homes and one for 1000.00 for a show quality home.
Keep pick of the litter for your self.

total 3250, is what you get back. And I guarentee you you would have spent wayyy more. even if all were show quality (which is highly unlikley) and you sold all for $1000.00 you still for sure would be in the hole.

And this all still didnt cover, time and effort the breeder spends with dogs, even time off of work for the labour and delivery.

There is no money to be made in proper breeding.

There is a difference between making say $100.00 dollers opposed to making $5000.00.

Back yard breeders make tons, as they dont do nearly half of what a good breeder does.

This thread is probabley done but I can't help but put my two sense in.
I personally breed for the betterment of the breed and for the love of the breed which should be the reason anyone breeds.
Let me tell you I have never made any money off a litter I breed poms i only have 3 females I always send out to stud bang there goes $1000, Then I only have maybe 2-3 puppies then comes the vet visits and the food another $300-400 Then heaven forbid you have a little one that you are trying to save I spent over $2000 trying to save a 3 week old puppy that the mom lost Milk early, Then there is the registration costs of the kennel club (i deal with Canadian kennel club) I am in Canada. Then we sell the puppies with contracts and such for $800 so tell me where did I make money?
I don't know if i'm missing anything but there are always little costs here and there.

why in the world are there people on here that are against breeding when clearly this is a breeders chat site?

seems to me there are people that need to find something to do with their lives other that bother those sane folks that realize we love our dogs enjoy our dog and breed our dogs.

I breed rabbits for fur food and pets, guess That should be wrong too. I breed milk goats for milk meat and pets.

Do you naysayers eat meat, I guess you have no Idea what those animals go through.

I love my IG's and they sleep on the couch or in front of the heater especially for them.

Ive been through small dog rescue, they treated me like crap. I got the bottom of the barrel because they knew i would take them. Used my vet services Id vet them at my expense , they would pick them up right away, yeah right Id have 10 dogs in my house for 2 months after vetting. and seldom got any of my vet money back. I think rescue is wonderful. but not all of them are so wonderful.

I treat my dogs like gold so go talk in the forum you enjoy, unless maybe you enjoy messing with us hobby breeders.