[Poohbear]

Wow! Sorry, I disagree! I want a true breeder to care about the breed. That said, I hope that you would try.

I can understand that you would try for money, but you should try, even trying for money, to make the breed better.

My boy, Rex came from a puppy mill, he is an excepcianall (sp) dog. I was lucky.

Now, that I know better, I think that I want a better breeder.

[DogandBigCatMama]

Sounds to me like YOUR the judgmental one. Sounds to me like you feel the need to defend yourself before anyone says anything to you because deep down you feel guilty. Why else would you start such a thread? I read through this whole thing and it just made me roll my eyes and laugh.

[nattiej1976]

Originally Posted by DogandBigCatMama

Sounds to me like YOUR the judgmental one. Sounds to me like you feel the need to defend yourself before anyone says anything to you because deep down you feel guilty. Why else would you start such a thread? I read through this whole thing and it just made me roll my eyes and laugh.

I with you on that one..........This is no more than forum Trolling at its best!

[whatsup00]

I also breed dogs. I might earn enough from it to buy my kids some of the extra stuff that they like or to pay a few bills. I say earn because to be a good breeder is alot of work and I feel like I earn that money the same as someone who works outside the home. My husband works outside the home and provides a good income for us, however my puppy money has helped with those extras. I clean kennels, water bowls, food dishes, groom, and play with my dogs on a daily basis. I clean puppy pens and change papers many times throughout the day with litters of puppies. It is alot of work. Not to mention weeding through puppy buyers to make sure my puppies get good homes. I might mention all of my puppies are generally sold within a week of advertising them. Most have deposits on them at 2 weeks of age and homes waiting for them at 8 weeks. I have a stipulation in my contract that if the new owners cannot keep their puppy/dog it comes back to me, none of my dogs will end up in the pound.
I am sure I am going to hear about the already overpopulated dog world. Well, here is my take on it. Most of the dogs in our local pound are large to med mixed breeds. It is not breeders who are overpopulating the dog world. It is the irresponsible PET owners who allow their dogs to breed with the mutt down the road because they are to lazy and cheap to have their pet sterilized.
That being said I am sure I will get bashed. And that's ok. Everyone has their own opinion. I do not believe in nasty puppymills who keep their dogs in substandard conditions. I do however believe in the right to breed dogs. And if the AR's are allowed to have their way it will be illegal in a few years to breed dogs. So those of you who spout that dog breeding should be illegal, all dog breeders are bad etc etc etc, where are you going to get your next puppy from? 10 yrs down the road there may be no puppies to buy. If breeding purebreds is illegal then surely irresponsible owners will also need to have their pets fixed, thus ending the overpopulation problem. So where will puppies come from?

[mightymite]

I am not here to bash anyone. I have, what you might call, a "well balanced" perspective on this. I worked for a vet and for the North Shore Animal League as a kid. I have been in and around breed rescue my entire life, I also show and train dogs and many of my closest friends are "show dog" people.

Dog breeding, in of itself, is not bad! When done properly, it is a service to all of us! What would happen if, as those on the far extremes of Animal Rights would have it, all dogs were spayed and neutered and no dog breeding was allowed? ("One Generation and out"). Domesticated dogs would be eradicated and all our lives would be far less rich as a result. Dog breeders have a very important role to play in society and our economy. We all owe ethical, hard working breeders a debt of gratitude for the sleepless nights and the huge vet bills. However, it is a definite misconception that all those dogs in shelters that are being euthanized are 1) mixed large breed dogs and 2) products of "opps" breedings. BYB's are the #1 source of dogs feeding the pet overpopulation problem, with puppy millers and opps breedings following thereafter. Interestingly, the dogs that are being euthanized are primarily young dogs, not puppies. Behavioral problems are the major reason for abandonment. Which brings me to my next point:

It's not breeding that is bad, it's breeding dogs who should not be bred. Behavioral problems, just like health problems, have two components - nature and nurture. I am also a member of APDT and do a lot of in-home pet consultations and training. I have seen puppies purchased from pet shops and BYBs, raised by loving families who started training early, and yet, clearly these puppies had deep seated behavioral problems. The problem with breeding for profit is that your decision to breed two dogs together can be swayed by the financial gain over other important criteria. If you are hard up on money, I have to assume that such tests that only a vet can do such as CERF and PENNHIP are not being performed. You may also choose to breed whatever stud you own to whatever bitch you own – without regard to how the dogs structures would blend or how distant or how closely related they are, or generally, what kind of puppy will result from the combination of the dam and sire’s traits. These are hypothetical’s – but based on the facts as have been presented in this thread. The sad truth is many of the problems, including hip displasia and adult aggression, may not surface until the dog is well past puberty and in his new home. He, thusly, becomes the new owner’s problem. “Educated” dog people by in large buy dogs from experienced breeders, it’s the people who are not “dog educated” that are more likely to run to buy a puppy from an ad in the newspaper or a pet shop. So they are far less equipped to handle these problems as they come up. Even if the breeder offers “full money guarantee” for the first 30 days, the doesn’t help when the problem surfaces at a year and half! Thus, it is at that point, that the owner gives up the young dog to rescue or shelters and the problem of homeless pets continue.

There was a post just recently on my own message board. Someone wanted to know if two dogs that don’t get along could be bred. The male was actually being aggressive to the female. Aside from the fact that the dogs were mixed breed dogs and the owner clearly didn’t know what genetic issues were in their backgrounds, it was kind of mind boggling that she would even attempt such a breeding considering that the male had obvious behavioral problems. Was this something she really wanted to have passed down to another generation of puppies?

One more thing, it is a complete fallacy that small dogs do not wind up in shelters. I have rescued at least four Yorkies from my town shelter in the past year. PURE BRED Yorkshire Terriers (or at least three Yorkies and what was probably a purebred Silky Terrier). As I am writing this, I am sitting next to a Yorkie who came from a shelter (yes, he had behavioral problems). I also had another Yorkie growing up whose original owner wanted her euthanized because she had no bite inhibition. When Maggie bit – she bit to break skin and god did she have a temper!. Yet, I don’t believe she was abused. She came to us with a beautiful pink bow in her hair and a hand crocheted blankie. Someone loved her dearly – but couldn’t handle her. In desperation, she thought euthanasia was the last resort. Being “Dog people” we took her in and she lived with us until the ripe old age of 15. She was lucky we were there – but it is not fare to think that there will always be a family equipped to deal with a dog that will bite and scar other people! How many people are there out there who are willing to take on such a liability? Whenever Maggie was handled by a vet or groomer she always had to be muzzled . . . you can image the difficulties we had with her as she got older and needed more critical medical care!

[whatsup00]

I said the majority of dogs in our local shelter are mixed large breed dogs. I am sure there are a fair number of small breeds that come in to shelters. But the large to med mixed breeds outnumber them by far. And you cannot lay the blame for temperment problems at the feet of the breeders alone, the owners share the blame.
So you assume that because I am not a show breeder and that I make some profit by breeding dogs that I do not do proper health testing or take my dogs in for vet care? You assume wrong. Doing the neccesary health tests and ensuring that my dogs are healthy only makes my puppies more valuable. Why would I not do it? I agree that dogs with temperment problems should not be bred. My dogs are bred to produce pets. Most of the people who want one of my puppies have children. Breeding dogs with temperment problems would also give myself and my breed a bad rep. Why would I do that?
I love my breed. Because I choose not to show does not mean that I should not breed if I can produce nice healthy puppies. I do all of the same testing that show breeders do (some show breeders do no testing). My pups come back to me if they need rehomed. I feel like I am doing everything right. If I am termed a BYB then I guess I am proudly a BYB

[mightymite]

Please don't be so defensive and please do read what I wrote carefully.

First, I said that it is a fallacy that there are no small dogs in shelters. I did not speak to the percentages. However, keep in mind that breed rescue comes in and takes the majority of small dogs out of shelters - because they do so poorly in the shelter environment. Also many people will rush to adopt a small dog (even people who are generally afraid of dogs) even if that particular small dog is not a good fit in their homes. There’s a lot more “circulation” of small dogs in and out of the system as a result. If you want a better understanding on why there it appears as though big dogs out number small dogs in shelters - get your hands on Sue Sternberg's video on small dog adoptions. She goes into detail on why shelter employees need to get little dogs out of shelters and into foster care ASAP. My own little guy stopped eating for two days and was so distressed, the shelter employees put him in the back away from the adoption area during the time he was at a shelter. One other point Sue makes, people put up with a lot more from little dogs than they do with big dogs. A small dog who bites may be tolerated where a big dog would be put down.

Second, I did not blame breed and temperament problems on breeding alone – I said it was mix of nature and nurture. However, quite to the contrary, too often the owners are blamed for failing to train or mistreating the dog in some way. Being a professional dog trainer, I can tell you that I have seen dogs who are trained and cared for right from the start but have deep seated temperament problems due to poor breeding. Breeders must step upto the plate and take responsibility for the temperaments they passed down through their lines. No manner of good training will change a dogs basic temperament. An overly soft dog may be more likely to bite out of fear aggressive tendencies and an overly condident/dominant dog may be more likely to bite out of assertiveness and dominance based aggression. It’s the breeder’s responsibility to cull such dogs out of their breeding program. Which begs the question – if you have only a couple of dogs to breed from and you’re livelihood depends on the generation of more and more puppies – what’s the incentive?

Second, my comment about health testing was directed to the original poster on this board who said she had little money and did most of the medical care herself. Please re-read her post and then read mine.

Now, while I did not make any direct comparison between show breeders and bybs in my post - as you insinuated - I'll say this:

When I look at a good breeder, I look for someone who has a dedicated interest in his/her dogs and not just for monetary gain specifically because of all the reasons I have already cited. Someone who does "stuff" with her dogs - be it conformation, or performance (hunting for example) or companion events (agility, flyball, disc dog, etc) will always be my first choice in a breeder. I use it as a litmus test of the structural integrity of her dogs and the health of her breeding program. These are dogs who cannot break down or else they cannot perform the tasks that are being asked of them. Any dog, even one who is sickle hocked and displastic, can sit on a sofa and be the family pet - but only a sound dog can race through a flyball jump grid and slam himself into a flyball box. The dog fancy is a small enough place that if a breeder was consistently producing unsound dogs, people would notice as their dogs would be breaking down over the course of years. Again, keep in mind that duration was another key point in my post - it's one thing to hand someone a puppy and say "yep, I did my testing and nothing came up and this puppy has all his shots." That may hold true for a year - maybe two or three. However, we are finding that many genetic defects (such as PRA for example) come out later in life - a breeder who is dedicated to developing a line of "FILL IN THE BLANK" dogs, needs to keep careful record of these sorts of things - over the course of YEARS - long after the initial sale. So yes, while I did not say it in my post - I would say that I have a bias for what you would call "show breeders." They are breeding for a standard of performance and structure which mitigates the economic standard (and no, I don't have rose colored glasses on this - many show breeders domake considerable money breeding dogs). It's a question though that their reputations are on the line and their dogs are an on-going project for them. Each litter has to be an improvement on what came before it because of the competitive standard that they are working towards As a byb - you just don't have the same incentives. Sorry.

The proof is in the pudding. I see many "yorkies" in my neighborhood. These dogs are clearly the product of byb and pet shop breeding. The sloppy breeding that went into these dogs is evident just from a cursory look - ears that don't stand up, wooly coats, too big, too small, sickle hocked, runny eyes, collapsed trachea - if a dog is sold as a Yorkie but does not look like a Yorkie - what is the point of buying said "purebred dog"? And if the breeder can't even take enough care to make sure that the dog they are selling looks like what he is proported to be, what are the chances that same breeder is going to make sure that what can't be seen such as latent genetic defects, are also being screened? Slim to none.

[dolcechihuahua]

This thread may be old but after reading through it, I felt the need to speak my mind. I've spent a lot of time on different pet/dog forums...while I'm new to this forum I'm not new to the controversial subject on BYB and breeding dogs in general.

Before I go into my whole schpeal - I did want to say a little bit about myself...considering I'm new to this forum. I've loved animals my entire life, and now that I'm able have made it a point to make as big a difference in the animal community as possible. Last year I rescued 12 cats and kittens, and one APBT all out of my apartment. I own one beautiful APBT of my own, and have been very involved in anti BSL and raising my pitty as an ambassador of the breed. While Pit Bulls are my LOVE, I only have the one - finding housing with a Pit Bull is damn near impossible unless you're trying to live in the ghetto. (Around here anyways). It always breaks my heart to see people breeding Pit Bulls for profit, not spaying and neutering when SO MANY end up euthanized, and in shelters - unadoptable? Mainly because nobody can find an insurance company that will cover a home housing a Pit Bull, and there are no apartments that will allow an obvious Pit Bull to reside there - consider yourself lucky if your Pit Bull is the result of poor breeding and looks like it could be a lab mix. While Pit Bulls are my breed, I would NEVER breed, or condone the breeding of Pit Bulls/Staffys that aren't registered, show quality animals. There's just too many to validate adding more pet quality animals.

That said, I'm also the owner of two Chihuahuas. I must say having small dogs is MUCH more convenient, and easy. I've also found, landlords LOVE to hear you've got Chihuahuas. They'd much rather have a tiny dog living in their space then a large Pit Bull. My Chihuahuas come from a local breeder. Funny - I searched online everywhere for a chihuahua to rescue in my area...I got three results on Pet Finder and none of the Chihuahuas would fit into my home. Either they weren't good with cats, weren't good with other dogs, or had health issues and needed medication daily.

I AM considering breeding my AKC female Chihuahua. I've come to realize that MANY many people want Chihuahuas. They're the ideal dog for most living situations, low maintenance, small, inexpensive to feed (compared to a large dog), and easy to take to and from. Not everybody has $1000+ to spend on a Chihuahua from champion show dog lines - and that's for a pet quality Chihuahua on a spay/neuter contract. Could somebody explain to me, if there's no Chihuahuas to adopt in the shelters (and NEVER Chihuahua puppies, YES some people would prefer to raise their dog from puppy hood) and the only available Chihuahuas are RIDICULOUSLY expensive...how is the average person, on an average income supposed to afford that as well as veterinary expenses?

Also...'professional' show breeders are so quick to bash anybody that has questions about breeding, or that show interest in starting to breed - where did they start I'd like to know? These people wouldn't have questions if they had MENTORS, professional breeders mentoring new breeders..now there's an idea.

I'm not defending OP as I don't really know them, and don't know what kind of dogs they're producing, or what breed of dogs...I do however get a little bit tired of the preaching from people doing the same thing...breeding dogs. There are responsible pet breeders, there are show breeders, and there are BYB. I've seen pet quality, and show quality dogs in shelters. JUST my opinion.

Just my piece...I in no way condone people mass producing dogs, mistreating their breeding dogs, breeding genetic faults, breeding breeds that are overpopulating the shelters, breeding dogs that don't fit into the breed standard even remotely, breeding teacups, minis, or 'designer' dogs and breeding mix breed dogs...I do however think that the term Back Yard Breeder is thrown at people who are doing nothing more than offering the average family a pet quality, healthy, genetically sound but not SHOW QUALITY animal for a reasonable price.