As a breeder myself, I can tell you that with more and more people becoming educated about healthy dogs, puppy mills, backyard breeders, etc. the top question I get is "are the parents OFA,CERF, etc." Nobody wants a dog from parents who's genetic health has not been cleared and tested.

The statements "I only breed pets" and "I only want a pet so that does not matter" make me VERY upset. Health testing (OFA,CERF,PennHip, etc.) has NOTHING to do with dog shows and EVERYTHING to do with breeding happy, healthy family pets. Does the family who wants a pet deserve the emotional and financial heartache of dealing with a dog with bad hips, cataracts or other genetic diseases?

A grooming client of mine wanted a standard poodle. She talked to many breeders and finally settled on a local backyard breeder because her and her 2 children only wanted a nice family pet and did not see the need to spend $1500 on a puppy from a quality breeder. At 5 months old when their puppy required $9,500 open heart surgery to repair a genetic heart defect she called the breeder to tell them their reply was, "oh do you think we should check the parents hearts?" Getting from a breeder who health tests will save you, your family and your dog much suffering!

There is nothing wrong with being a small or "hobby" breeder, who only has a couple dogs and breeds occasional litters but failing to do genetic testing is just irresponsible and careless and ultimately damages the breeds!

As I said, I believe in genetic testing, because it affects the person buying the dog. Pet or not, genetic defects affect everyone!
The people who bought the poodle should have researched their breeder more. There are backyard breeders with genetic issues and questionable practices and then there are hobby breeders like me, who have no genetic issues and provide the dogs excellent care and make sure there is a viable market for the pups. It is all in the research.
I never said that if the market you are producing for is pets that testing does not matter. What I said is, for some people buying pets, they would rather spend less on a dog that potentially has genetic issues than spend more on a guaranteed genetic issue free dog. Just as in breeders, there are buyers/owners who do not care for the dog, but the novelty of it.
Being a hobby breeder does not automatically garner you the name of backyard breeder. If the dogs are healthy, free of defect, loved under foot, and provided premium vet care, and the best food and homes are available for the prospective puppies, then there is no dishonesty in it.
People need to realize that if you are getting your pups from a sketchy source, then it becomes "buyer beware". You can't label all backyard or hobby breeders because there are those that wreck it for everyone else. (ie: puppy mills-which I think are disgusting!)

[QUOTE=Chi-Lover;69644]

Some points to consider: MOST people when looking for a puppy are not interested in having a purebred, pedigreed dog. They want a pet. Not everyone can pay the sometimes outrageous prices for quality, genetically tested, proven show-ring dogs.

Breeding stock is not genetically tested in order to be shown, they are tested in order to be bred, there is no getting around that.

I do believe in genetic testing, if your breed is known for specific issues.

Every breed has issues, and the further from 'normal', ie: miniature, toy, bracheocephalic, dwarfed, etc. the more issues they have, genetically.

But not everyone can pay the prices for a puppy with genetically tested parents or for a show quality dog. That does not make people with healthy, sound, non-registered dogs backyard breeders. It means they have researched the market. As long as it is done with vet care, the dog has no genetic or health issues and the puppies are placed in lifelong, caring homes, then I believe that is a responsible breeder.

It puzzles me to know how you can possibly assess whether the dogs you are breeding with have or do not have genetic issues if you have not tested them. I am sure I am not the only one who would like to know that, and I doubt you will find too many people on this forum or off it who will agree with your statement. The Kennel Clubs make their rules for breeders for a reason, and their can be no justification for ignoring them.


And yes, I am a 'backyard breeder' of healthy, loving, genetically sound, wonderful chihuahuas who will never set foot in the show ring, but their owners do not care as long as they are healthy and happy. They are not a sporting breed and in fact do not have a real useful purpose except maybe agility (which is not a sport you normally see chi's in) a trick dog, movie dog or a lap companion.
When I started breeding I went into it with knowledge of the breed, breeding consequences, c-sections and lots of market research. I have no trouble selling my little guys and have awesome references with not one puppy ever coming back to me for any reason. Fancy that, and I have not done the 100 things a top breeder expects other breeders to do before breeding. It can be done the right way, without it being YOUR way

And all I can say to that is that I hope there are enough people out there who are sufficiently informed to see this post for what it is, and to realise that the only ones who will pay for your very cavalier disregard for the decades of work put into truly responsible breeding by registered breeders, [admittedly not all of them are beyond reproach] are the puppies you breed and the buyers who buy them from you.
The heartbreaking and never-ending work of animal welfare organisations, and rescue volunteers, and the equally endless work of the Kennel Clubs and Veterinary organisations which try again and again to create regulations in an attempt to put a stop to backyard breeders and mills is all a waste of time and effort then?
There is no justification for what you are doing, and for what you are promoting others should do, which is worse!
Sadly, it is because of those of you who think they are above the 'law' that the animal rights activists are becoming more and more fanatical, and that even those of us who are registered and responsible breeders with tested breeding dogs are beginning to agree with them that there seems to be no solution other than to ban all kinds of breeding altogether.

If people cannot afford a pure bred dog from tested parents, the welfare and rescue centres are bursting at the seams with abandoned dogs desperate for a second chance at a loving home and a decent life. This is where they should be looking, not to backyard breeders doing it at discount prices, at the expense of the breed and the buyers

[Kingsbridge Cav]

Are none of you concerned that this forum may have alienated a well educated zoologist who may have something interesting to add to our forum. After that unnecessary "blasting" I wonder if Field Spaniel will ever be back.
While I agree with most of what has been represented above, I am deeply concerned that the Breeders Corner has become a "bitch" forum.
There are nicer ways to say things and when people are not offended they tend to hear what is being said.
I regularly find myself at wits end to the elementary approach some have to not only breeding, but many aspects of our forum. If I am too steamed I often just bypass the entry and wait til I am calm B4 I respond, or not respond at all.
Consider this: you may be a lot more effective in directing people if you sprinkle it with a little sugar.

Chi Lover, you lost me when you used the word "market."

My puppies were never a cash crop. I never made a dime on them. In fact, I rarely broke even.

I am in total agreement vetgroomer. Even with a large litter (8+ puppies) I do not make profit. If you do it right you do not make money. Genetic testing, quality food, vet care, dog show entries, all the time and energy I put into caring for my dogs, the weeks I take off work to raise puppies... it all adds up!

vetgroomer don't tell me you aren't in it at least partially for the money, because that would be a lie. And researching your market is an important facet of the dog breeding business. If you have no market you have no buyers and then your purpose of breeding would be lost.
I know your answer is going to be to be better the breed, etc. However, if it were costing more money than you are earning there would be a complete loss to you, and that makes no sense to me. If you aren't in it for the money, then why are you breeding at all?? And it isn't a crime to make money and have the pups best interests in mind at the same time.
Orangedog if you are so concerned about pet overpopulation you would be rescuing, not breeding. Stop breeding if you are so concerned with overpopulation and start rescuing instead. You sound like a hypocrite. There are enough breeders of every breed of dog that I am sure if you stopped breeding there would be no loss to the breed.
There are just as many purebred, registered dogs in shelters/rescues as there are non registered mutts. That is bad owners, not breeders.
Jabberwocky, if my dogs had genetic issues I would have buyers coming back and my dogs would show it. And I still have no issues selling them. I stipulate many things in my buyer's contract and screen homes to the max. I do not let them re-home the pups and I stay in touch with the new owners for the life of the dog and offer help and assistance. I have many referrals and not one complaint. Do the owners care that they do not know who the relatives are two generations back and have a piece of paper confirming this? No.
There are just as many people willing to buy pups without papers as there are without. And I do not discount sell my pups. I sell them at a rate that I know the owners will be able to not only afford the pup's initial cost, but can afford to pay for the dog for life. I have actually not had any people ask for papers. They want a pet. Papers mean nothing to the new owners if they want a pet.

[pinsnpugs]

This thread was a very interesting read, I must say, vetgroomer....I enjoyed your posts.