I was looking around on here, I guess I just wanted to see what some people have had issues with while breeding their dogs and such, I have a master's in Zoology and have studied genetics and animal anatomy and physiology extensively in college so I believe myself to be well-educated in my dog's inner-workings and reproductive abilities. I have also talked to breeders in the area of a variety of breeds and springer spaniels (my breed of interest) and have had my dog evaluated by a few of them before even thinking of having him tested to be used as a stud dog (which he was later tested and determined by my vet to be fit for breeding) and more importantly, was determined by myself to have a temperment and body type that I will be okay with reproducing. I found this forum as there does not seem to be many online discussing the breeding of dogs and I get most of my information from books and magazines and decided to try the internet as well, but I was very disappointed when I read the responses by a few of the people on these forums. From what I have read in books and magazines, no one ever claims to be an expert at dog breeding, even those that write the books after a lifetime of experience would still claim that they have something to learn, and while I find that some people may be a bit naive who post comments on here, they are sometimes treated as fools. I was quite disheartened, by some, definately not all, of the comments made on this forum, as all that I have met in the dog community have been understanding and compassionate and I hope that others reading this forum do not get the wrong idea of dog breeders as a whole.

There are some people here who seem to think of themselves as experts, and for you, I hope that you remember one thing: you were naive to all of this once too. You needed assistance to learn basic things that are sometimes skimmed over in all of the books or that you forget in the midst of all the excitement, and hopefully at that time, someone helped you, they weren't critical or judgemental, they looked at you with compassion and understanding and patience that allowed you to move forward with dog breeding and probably saved some dogs in the process.

[chevy & karen]

Originally Posted by field springer

I was looking around on here, I guess I just wanted to see what some people have had issues with while breeding their dogs and such, I have a master's in Zoology and have studied genetics and animal anatomy and physiology extensively in college so I believe myself to be well-educated in my dog's inner-workings and reproductive abilities. I have also talked to breeders in the area of a variety of breeds and springer spaniels (my breed of interest) and have had my dog evaluated by a few of them before even thinking of having him tested to be used as a stud dog (which he was later tested and determined by my vet to be fit for breeding) and more importantly, was determined by myself to have a temperment and body type that I will be okay with reproducing. I found this forum as there does not seem to be many online discussing the breeding of dogs and I get most of my information from books and magazines and decided to try the internet as well, but I was very disappointed when I read the responses by a few of the people on these forums. From what I have read in books and magazines, no one ever claims to be an expert at dog breeding, even those that write the books after a lifetime of experience would still claim that they have something to learn, and while I find that some people may be a bit naive who post comments on here, they are sometimes treated as fools. I was quite disheartened, by some, definately not all, of the comments made on this forum, as all that I have met in the dog community have been understanding and compassionate and I hope that others reading this forum do not get the wrong idea of dog breeders as a whole.
Which post's are you referring to? Your post kind of pisses me off and I'll tell you why. Of all my dog's and there have been many. Mostly all rescue's and throw away's (2 of them pure bred spaniel's) I have only had the chance to have one puppy.
Now let me tell you about that puppy and the nit wit that I got that puppy from.

His name is chevy and he is a cocker. His tail was not docked, but hacked off and all but gouged out, then they vaccinated him.. The only thing I and quite a few professional's can come up with is, chevy was so traumatized by the hacking and gouging of his tail that when the vaccine's hit his body it hurt his brain. Some people call it vaccine damaged, some call it spaniel rage and some call it canine autism.. There is no help in the allopath community for a pup like chevy, they can't recognize it and if they do they refuse to admit to it, they are usually PTS... I have been to many allopath's before I found one that would take us as a patient. Take the information you can use from a post or reply and use it, but don't write something like this if the poster only has the best interest of the dog in mind. They are living, breathing, feeling soul's just like you. Only difference is they have no voice, someone need's to speak for them and if it may sound harsh at time's over look it, these people care about the animal's. And keep in mind Thing's don't alway's come across the way it is meant to in text.. What may sound critical to you may be a desperate plea for that person they are replying to, to listen so there are no more chevy's or worse, and so that maybe someday those of us that rescue won't have to look into the sad eye's of another throw away.

There are some people here who seem to think of themselves as experts, and for you, I hope that you remember one thing: you were naive to all of this once too. You needed assistance to learn basic things that are sometimes skimmed over in all of the books or that you forget in the midst of all the excitement, and hopefully at that time, someone helped you, they weren't critical or judgemental, they looked at you with compassion and understanding and patience that allowed you to move forward with dog breeding and probably saved some dogs in the process.

No. I am not a Homeopath. I am only a student of Homeopathy.

There are some people here who seem to think of themselves as experts, and for you, I hope that you remember one thing: you were naive to all of this once too. You needed assistance to learn basic things that are sometimes skimmed over in all of the books or that you forget in the midst of all the excitement, and hopefully at that time, someone helped you, they weren't critical or judgemental, they looked at you with compassion and understanding and patience that allowed you to move forward with dog breeding and probably saved some dogs in the process.[/QUOTE]

There are some people who post on this forum, and others on the internet, who quite frankly don't deserve to be spoken to politely.
There was one person wanting to breed their brother and sister pet dogs, who had not been neutered (first offence), and the male had cataracts in one eye at two years old and one undescended testicle.
How does one get the point across to such people politely?
I understand the anger of breeders who are terrified on a daily basis by the ignorance and irresponsibility of people wanting to breed their pet dog (incomprehensible), and thus only supplying the animal rescues with even more tragic unwanted babies to destroy.
That is before we even get around to discussing 'breeders' who do it for the most ignoble of reasons, with no regard for the future of the pups (or kittens or whatever) they breed, or the 'farmers', who do it for profit.
Every breeders NUMBER ONE priority should be that the puppies they breed will have a secure future, and a loving home, because unless that is assured, no puppies should be bred, regardless of how fabulous the parents are.
"Learn first for 9 days, then breed for 1." That is the best advice for any prospective breeder. Know your breed, and then breed to improve it, that is the only possible reason to do it in the first place.

Originally Posted by field springer

There are some people here who seem to think of themselves as experts, and for you, I hope that you remember one thing: you were naive to all of this once too. You needed assistance to learn basic things that are sometimes skimmed over in all of the books or that you forget in the midst of all the excitement, and hopefully at that time, someone helped you, they weren't critical or judgemental, they looked at you with compassion and understanding and patience that allowed you to move forward with dog breeding and probably saved some dogs in the process.

While I don't consider myself an expert on breeding, I've had a lot of experience, both personally, and in conjunction with my job.

Was I naive in the beginning? Most certainly. Were the breeders I contacted for mentoring and information critical or judgmental? Most definitely. Did I deserve it? Again, most definitely. But did I go off half cocked and do things my way, or did I take their criticism to heart, and start looking at the process of breeding in a new light? You bet I opened my eyes, and started learning what I needed to know.

The breeder who agreed to mentor me did not treat me with compassion, understanding or patience. She put me through the wringer! She questioned my motives, she hauled me on the carpet when I suggested doing something dumb. And she taught me A LOT! And in the end, she told me she was hard on me because a lot of people think they want to breed, but not many are willing to do the necessary work. Being hard was her way to determine if I really meant business, and was willing to do what was necessary. And, IMO, she was completely justified in grilling me the way she did, and telling me I was a dumb azz when I was being a dumb azz.

Those of us who give tough responses do so for a variety of reasons. We're passionate about dogs, and the breeding of dogs. We believe dog breeding should only be undertaken by those who have done their homework, and who have the best interest of the breed at heart.

We do not believe in breeding mixed breeds "Because they're cute. Because I can make some money. Because I want my dog to have one litter before I have her spayed."

We don't believe dogs should be bred when they're too young. We believe that anyone considering breeding their dog should avail themselves of all the health testing available. And that does not mean a check-up by their vet. It means knowing what disorders exist in your breed, and testing for any that apply. OFA certification, CERF testing, BAER testing, to name a few.

We believe that anyone who considers breeding should investigate the history of their dog's parents and siblings. Did any of them develop epilepsy, diabetes, Cushing's Disease, Hypothyroidism? Were any of the dog's ancestors diagnosed with liver shunts, heart issues, kidney issues that could be considered genetic in nature?

We believe that anyone who decides to breed their dog should be made aware of all the things that can happen. Bitches can die giving birth. C-sections are not rare, but they are expensive. Puppies can fade and die, despite our best efforts. Parvo can wipe out an entire litter in just a few days. People can, and do call you a few weeks after getting their pup, and tell you the pup has a genetic health issue, and ask what you intend to do about it.

We believe that bringing a litter of puppies into the world is a grave responsibility, and should not be undertaken lightly. We believe that the breeder should be willing to assume responsibility for those pups, from birth to death, which means they're willing to take back a dog if the buyer finds that can no longer keep the dog. Even if it's 15 years old.

We believe that anyone who breeds their dog should do it right, or don't do it at all. And we don't believe in sugar coating the truth. It's a hard pill to swallow, but if you can't swallow it, maybe you shouldn't breed.

Very well said Vetgroomer!

Let me also add a few things. First off, I have yet to see ANYBODY on here claim to be an expert. I have however seen experienced breeders give their honest opinions and somethimes this is not easy or even nice to hear. But look at it this way... when I read a post by somebody who's 6 month old bitch with no clearances (for obvious reasons... to young being the first of many)won't stand for the stud dog I want to scream! I would hope if you have the training and experience you say you have you will see that this is WRONG! If somebody is coming here to ask advise and their actions could potentially KILL their dog, I feel we as pet owners, groomers, breeders, vets, etc. should do our best to discourage them!

I spent over 10 years researching before I EVER bred a litter and while I am no where near an expert I do have more experience then some and am happy to pass along my experiences and what I have found.

I am guessing if your springer has been "found fit for breeding" it means he is a champion (bench and/or field) or at least pointed/titled, is over 2 years old, has cleared OFA hips, elbows and heart as well as current CERF, Brucelosis and BAER tests and that you are only going to breed to a bitch who meets the same criteria.

I can't tell you how many times I get calls of emails from people who want to use my BIS male as a stud dog. When I ask about clearances I often get the reply... "huh? Well she has all her shots and the vet says she is healthy" I tell them no clearances no breeding! I am always happy to help people get started and have many times given people the names of good vets to get OFA and CERF tests done and let me share a few cases with you:

One of the "healthy, my vet says she is great to breed" bitches ended up with SEVERE CRIPPLING hip dysplasia... she had never limped a day in her life and until the OFA/PennHip was done they had no idea. Imagine if they had bred her!

My second case is a 4 year old bitch who had never been bred. lovely girl had been to the vet every year for a full exam, shots, etc. When I sent them to my cardiologist for an OFA heart clearance the vet found she had a horrible heart defect that the vets had missed for 4 years!

Just a vet visit is NOT enough!

And not only is a simple vet visit not enough, sometimes even when you've done all the testing that is available, disaster can strike.

I bred my smooth Dachshund bitch, Rondy, at two and a half years of age, after having all the necessary tests done. Picked a stud who had all the testing done, and had compatible blood lines and type. She whelped 5 healthy pups, 4 of whom were sold, and I kept the only male as a show prospect.

At three and a half, Rondy started exhibiting some strange behaviors. Even my vets were stumped when I described what she was doing. She'd be walking across the room, stop in mid stride with her right paw raised in the air. She'd stand that way for about a minute, then take three steps and vomit. After vomiting, she acted completely normal, and went about her business as usual.

We finally figured it out when she did that while at the vet's office. Anyone care to guess what the problem was?

Rondy had hereditary epilepsy. She was having focal seizures. Fortunately they were infrequent and never progressed to grand mal seizures. I had her spayed immediately, and I contacted all the people who'd bought her puppies, telling them there was a problem. And paid to have the one bitch puppy I'd sold as a show/breeding prospect spayed, too.

Epilepsy is not something you can test for. You don't know about it until it happens. Unfortunately, her son, Teddy, developed a different variety of seizure disorder, at age 3. Narcolepsy. I had him neutered. And he did develop grand mal seizures at a later age.

I also contacted the breeder I'd bought Rondy from, and informed her about the problem. Her comment? "Epilepsy does not exist in my line." What a load of bull! It came from somewhere. She didn't "catch it" from some other dog.

You gotta do your research, folks. And even then, it's still risky. Some breeders lie.

Yes, some breeders lie, and some do not believe that even genetics 101 is necessary to become a breeder. Unfortunately, there isn't much that can be done to force people to study or research.
IMO, and I am frequently on my soap box about this in my country, (South Africa), presentation of health certification should be a pre-requisite for qualifying for show entries or field trial entries, just as registration and positive identification are. I think that would solve some of the problems, and one at a time works for me.
I wonder how many show and field winners are bred because they are winners, yet do not have the best history on closer examination as far as health or temperament is concerned?

Originally Posted by jabberwocky

I wonder how many show and field winners are bred because they are winners, yet do not have the best history on closer examination as far as health or temperament is concerned?

Unfortunately, it happens way to often. Ever hear of popular sire syndrome? One single individual dog can wreak havoc on a breed.

One of the most notable instances is called Impressive syndrome. Impressive was a Quarter Horse stallion that was outstanding. Everyone wanted to breed to him. But, unbeknownst to anyone, Impressive had a genetic mutation. It didn't effect him. It didn't effect his offspring. But a few generations down the line, when the recessive genes started getting paired up, it became apparent to everyone.

And, unfortunately, that's the sort of thing that can't really be tested for, and it's almost impossible to avoid. By the time anyone knows it exists, it's too late.

Originally Posted by vetgroomer

Unfortunately, it happens way to often. Ever hear of popular sire syndrome? One single individual dog can wreak havoc on a breed.

One of the most notable instances is called Impressive syndrome. Impressive was a Quarter Horse stallion that was outstanding. Everyone wanted to breed to him. But, unbeknownst to anyone, Impressive had a genetic mutation. It didn't effect him. It didn't effect his offspring. But a few generations down the line, when the recessive genes started getting paired up, it became apparent to everyone.

And, unfortunately, that's the sort of thing that can't really be tested for, and it's almost impossible to avoid. By the time anyone knows it exists, it's too late.

That's very interesting, I had not heard of him, but then I am not in the horse world at all. I would be interested to hear about the consequent situation for breeders, and what they did.
Although you haven't said what the recessive was, it doesn't sound dissimilar to the PRA/Prcd situation that many of us dog breeders faced here 6 or 7 years ago. Prior to that time genetic testing for the disease had not been available here, only the opthalmic tests.
I know of many breeders who discovered, once they tested their breeding dogs, [and let me assure you that to test a dog from fresh blood drawn here and rushed to the USA by courier is very expensive] that, in some instances, 90% of their breeding stock were either carriers or affected by the recessive. It was devastating, particularly to some of the breeders who did not have a large base of breeding dogs. It is very hard to pinpoint now where the recessives came from, but obviously not all of the existing breeding dogs could be completely scrapped from the breeding programs, because that would only create other problems with making the gene pool so much smaller, besides bankrupting a good number of breeders. The good breeders are just making informed decisions about which dogs to mate. What makes this of particular interest to me is the virtual certainty that there must be a number of other recessives, not yet discovered, that will in the fullness of time create the same situation for breeders in the future, and possibly the way we deal with this situation now, and the level of success we achieve, could point the way for them when they face their own hard decisions. Thanks for the posting.

[Lara's mom]

Bless you for your straight talk! Don't stop!!! I don't know what it is with these people who know absolute I LOVE DOGS!I LOVE DOGS!I LOVE DOGS!I LOVE DOGS! about breeding who think it is somehow their right to bring yet more unwanted puppies into the world. Like many of the posters here, every one of my dogs & cats except for Lara have been somebody else's throwaways. What is it about the fact that there are already way more dogs than there are homes for them that these people fail to understand? How can these people be so selfish and dense?