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Old 01-01-2010   #1 (permalink)
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Default Line breeding

Hi All,

Just wondering if many of you have ever linebred and for what reasons you have done so.
What types of genetic testings have you done on your breeding dogs/bitches and have you furthered more tests as your linebreeding went along.

Thank you in advance.
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Old 01-03-2010   #2 (permalink)
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Hi: Obviously I don't have the answer but, I thought I'd "bump" your post. Things tend to be slow around the holidays but should start picking up now that they're over.
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Old 01-25-2010   #3 (permalink)
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So I am assuming not many of you linebreed your dogs.
I have done reasearch on this and as we know outcrossing can and will produce more genetic problems, even within one's own breed.

Linebreeding is how a kennel is formed as in one can say that is so and so's dogs do to the fact they have their Type.

I have a very bad cold right now so hopefully this is making some sort of sense to you all.
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Old 03-16-2010   #4 (permalink)
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I'd really like to hear the opinions of breeders in the forum about this. When it comes time for Lance to father puppies, I want to make sure that I do everything the right way.
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Old 03-16-2010   #5 (permalink)
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In case anytone's interested here's a link to a pretty informative site I found all about breeding dogs and become a reputable breeder;

Breeders.NET: Breeder Evaluation Checklist
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Old 03-16-2010   #6 (permalink)
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I use a combinatino of outcrossing and linebreeding. Linebreeding when done correctly can be very good for a breeding program BUT you need to outcross at times or you can begin to develop problems in the line.

I test ALL my breedings dogs through OFA, PennHip and CERF: Hips, Elbows, Heart & Eyes... all the required testing for my breed.
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Old 03-16-2010   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeDog View Post
I use a combinatino of outcrossing and linebreeding. Linebreeding when done correctly can be very good for a breeding program BUT you need to outcross at times or you can begin to develop problems in the line.

I test ALL my breedings dogs through OFA, PennHip and CERF: Hips, Elbows, Heart & Eyes... all the required testing for my breed.
Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is the difference between line breeding and outcrossing? Is linebreeding like breeding members of the same litter?
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Old 03-16-2010   #8 (permalink)
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inbreeding would be mating first degree relatives, i.e.: father x daugher, brother x sister.

linebreeding is mating individuals who share one or more common ancestors. i.e: uncle x niece, half-sib x half-sib, grandfather x granddaughter.

Outcrossing is the mating of individuals who are, for all intents and purposes, unrelated. i.e: they are the same breed but have no common ancestors
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Old 03-16-2010   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeDog View Post
inbreeding would be mating first degree relatives, i.e.: father x daugher, brother x sister.

linebreeding is mating individuals who share one or more common ancestors. i.e: uncle x niece, half-sib x half-sib, grandfather x granddaughter.

Outcrossing is the mating of individuals who are, for all intents and purposes, unrelated. i.e: they are the same breed but have no common ancestors
Thank you very much for the claification.

In this case, even though I am not a breeder, I would have to say that I do not endorse linebreeding because in my opinion this is one of the reasons why genetic health problems are so evident in certain breeds. Certainly not the only reason, but def. a reason. I'd stick with healthy outcrossing where all neccessary testing for genetic and other defects are cleared.
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Old 03-16-2010   #10 (permalink)
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actually the contrary... outcrossing can cause MORE health problems then correctly done linebreeding. I just spent a weekend in RI at a caning genetics seminar and this as well as all the other breeding workshops have been to have all said them same thing.

puppy mills and backyard breeders are the main reason for genetic problems. ALL breeds have health problems and it is by responsable breeding (ie; testing dogs before breeding them) that we reduce and eliminate these problems. mills abd bybs that don't bother to test breed effected dogs to effected dogs and there you go.
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Old 03-16-2010   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeDog View Post
actually the contrary... outcrossing can cause MORE health problems then correctly done linebreeding. I just spent a weekend in RI at a caning genetics seminar and this as well as all the other breeding workshops have been to have all said them same thing.

puppy mills and backyard breeders are the main reason for genetic problems. ALL breeds have health problems and it is by responsable breeding (ie; testing dogs before breeding them) that we reduce and eliminate these problems. mills abd bybs that don't bother to test breed effected dogs to effected dogs and there you go.
Well, one must remember, there are good breeders out there and there are bad breeders out there. If you have a bad breeder who does linecrossing when genetic issues are present in that specific generation/family the trait is passed on.

Furthermore, can't cousins or other relatives who have offspring contract offspring with potential mental and other handicaps? Wouldn't this apply to dogs too???
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Old 03-16-2010   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Well, one must remember, there are good breeders out there and there are bad breeders out there. If you have a bad breeder who does linecrossing when genetic issues are present in that specific generation/family the trait is passed on.
Which is why I said RESPONSABLE breeders not bad mill "breeders"/backyard breeds.

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Furthermore, can't cousins or other relatives who have offspring contract offspring with potential mental and other handicaps? Wouldn't this apply to dogs too???
not sure what you mean by this.... offspring contract offspring? please clarify, thanks
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Old 03-16-2010   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeDog View Post
Which is why I said RESPONSABLE breeders not bad mill "breeders"/backyard breeds.



not sure what you mean by this.... offspring contract offspring? please clarify, thanks
I mean like two cousins having a puppy. Would the pup suffer from potential issues like mental handicaps like a human child would?
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Old 03-17-2010   #14 (permalink)
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not at all remember dogs are not humans

but again this is provided we are breeding healthy dogs with all their breed appropriate clearances who are excellent representations of their breed in type and temperament.
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Old 03-17-2010   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeDog View Post
not at all remember dogs are not humans

but again this is provided we are breeding healthy dogs with all their breed appropriate clearances who are excellent representations of their breed in type and temperament.
I have just done some research and I have found that many breeders use linebreeding to eliminate genetic problems, however there are still many risks involved with linebreeding that aren't as prevalent with outbreeding;

Line Breeding Dogs …
Why Dog Breeding Genetics Say Not To!

Many show dog breeders seem oblivious to the dangers of line breeding dogs, and in fact, hotly defend the practice.

What Show Breeders Mean by “Good for the Breed”

Well, as registered dog breeders we are told that we must continually strive to “improve” our breed. What does this mean exactly?

It means how closely the resultant progeny conform to the documented “Breed Standards” of the breed in conformation, coloring, size, weight, ear set and a dozen other parameters.

And how is this measured? By how well such dogs succeed in the Show Ring against others of their breed.

Naturally, anyone who is a serious show breeder will do whatever it takes to produce dogs that win, self righteous in the knowledge that they are supported by their Kennel Club for dutifully “improving the breed”.

Where Does Line Breeding Dogs Fit Here?

Motivated by trying to produce the perfect dog that conforms exactly to the associated breed standards, such breeders deliberately breed outstanding show animals back to their close relatives in order to both stabilize and stamp their line with its special characteristics.

This is line breeding.

In the words of one respected breeder:

Linebreeding is a method that breeders will use to improve upon
and try to eliminate structural and health problems
from their dogs.

It is the breeding together of dogs
that have a well bred superior common ancestor
who has attributes that the breeder is attempting to reproduce
and improve upon in their own dogs.

Linebreeding is an attempt to concentrate the genetic contribution
of an outstanding ancestor in the resulting offspring.

As well once started one must continue the
linebreeding process or all will be for naught. (Underlining my own)
Yes, serious respectable show breeders are very committed to line breeding... it gives them the results they are looking for.

Here is an excerpt on this topic from the BBC documentary "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" :

Such breeders declare that linebreeding is not inbreeding, as in inbreeding, close relatives not separated by more than one generation are bred e.g. brother to sister or mother to son.

And even inbreeding is considered OK by many show dog breeders if done sparingly in the hands of “very experienced breeders”.

Line breeding dogs is considered "safe" by show dog breeders if the superior common ancestor that is used repeatedly in a genetic line appears to be healthy, and turns out (in retrospect!) to have lived a long life.

But is it really?

A real linebreeding example

Let’s look at a real example of line breeding dogs in the light of basic dog breeding genetics to see what the implications of this practice might be.

In this example, two outstanding show dogs appear several times in the one 4 generation pedigree. One is the daughter of the other who on his own assumes the position of 5 ancestors in the pedigree.

Consider this scenario:

• This super male dog (shown as a white box) carries a genetic defect i.e. genes are Dd. Because most defects are recessive, he will appear healthy and the defect will be completely unapparent and unexpressed.

• Every other dogs in the pedigree, including his super daughter who appears twice in it (pink box), is genetically free of the gene i.e. genes are DD (unlikely though that is!).

• The defective gene is inherited by 50% of the offspring (which is what would happen normally under the laws of inheritance).

Here’s the scenario represented as a pedigree:



You can see that while every dog in the ancestors of the resultant litter are perfectly healthy, no doubt with many show winners amongst them, half of the litter resulting from this pedigree scenario would be affected by the genetic disease i.e. dd (and the other half would be carriers for it i.e. Dd).
The Message Here...

The incidence of genetic diseases in purebred dogs is relatively high.

When dogs carrying the same genetic weakness (highly likely in closely related animals of the same breed) are mated together, the risk that they will have offspring that actually expresses and therefore suffers from the weakness is very high.

So, while line breeding does produce some “outstanding” show animals, it also results in just as many defective “duds” not suited to any purpose, least of all as innocent people’s beloved pets.

Another thing to suffer in any animal with closely related parentage is what is called in genetics “vigor”. Vigor refers to the fecundity (fertility), health and life expectancy of the animal.

Inbred animals are more prone to not only genetic defects, but also poor reproductive performance, have smaller litters and are simply not as robust and long-lived as out-bred animals.
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Old 03-17-2010   #16 (permalink)
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Todd, just an FYI. As you noted, you are not a breeder therefore understand that what you just posted is an opinion not necessarily fact or the way it is.
As all purebred dogs are predisposed to genetic health issues of one kind or another, testing is done first to rule out or greatly reduce these genetic issues. Thus as the author noted, the sire was already suffering from a genetic issue.
Had a reputable breeder tested and found that the dog was clear, this would in fact not be a reputable finding therefore for be sure when reading this stuff that you take into account it is only an opinion and for each of theirs, there will be reputable breeders who can denounce this. I have a line bred dog in my Papillons lineage. Actual both are descendants of the number 2 Papillon in the US and guess what, no health issues. Probably because like most. The health issues were ruled out before any breeding. This link you read clearly address' a dog that has a genetic issue and the end result of its breeding. They did not talk about or show an example of a dog that was in fact not carrying an health issue.
Now that you have some ideas of your dogs breeds, have you checked to see what its genetic and health issues may be. Be reminded, if you were to find a common one on both sides will this not actually double the chances of the dog having one or more of these health issues.
Things to consider that most do not. That is why these sites that provide this information are not actually correct in the way they go about explaining things and why one must keep an open mind and willing to accept that had someone like Orangedog wrote this and you did not know, would you still have posted it or would you have posted a link that Orangedog wrote expressing the opposite.
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Old 03-17-2010   #17 (permalink)
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Now I'm really confused. Is this a good thing or not?
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Old 03-17-2010   #18 (permalink)
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when done correctly by a knowledgable, responsible breeder then yes it's a good thing.

now if you don't know your line, don't have multiple generations of genetic health testing and sound temperament then its a bad thing
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Old 03-17-2010   #19 (permalink)
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Thank you. I was really getting confused. I love a simple straight answer!!!
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Old 03-17-2010   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lara's mom View Post
Now I'm really confused. Is this a good thing or not?
In fact, this is how purebreds were first created. This is a good thing in that all dogs no matter what the breeds carry recessive genes. Proper testing of those that can be found regarding health issues common to a specific breed reduces greatly the chance of health issues being carried through the line. For years breeders line bred more often than many assume to ensure that there was less chance of introducing common health issues in their breed from occurring. Today this process is still done for primarily the same reason in addition to working to stay within breed standards. Taking a dog that has a health issue and breeding it of course will most likely carry the health issue in the pups but be reminded as even in people who are also a species of animal, we can carry a genetic health issue in us and for unknown reasons not pass it on to our offspring. This is not an exact science, if it was there would be a cure for all know issues no matter what the species of animal.
In todays tech world, breeders have access to labs to help ensure that genetic issues are not carried forward. In most cases they are found. Others make take longer to develop. The original breeders used basically their remembered knowledge of breeds to create what we know as purebreds. Mixing breeds to create one that would serve a purpose ie: job. As they bred and found weakness' they either introduced a new breed to the mix or they used the same dogs but with different structure, size etc to weed out the weakness that was previously found. It may have taken several generations before they were able to correct these health issues. Once they were successful, they continued the process of line breeding to ensure the offspring were like the sire and dam, free of the issues that plagued the prior ones they bred. Now that they have found the proper mix, it would have been common sense to keep the line intact to avoid future issues that they had spent years working to resolve. The unfortunate thing now is that over the last 100 years there has been a push by breed clubs of many breeds to re-write the breed standards. By doing this they have in a sense altered what the original breeders worked so hard to create. In many breeds, over refinement has introduced health issues that had not been apparent in the breed before. We can only assume that the reason was that through the hard work of the original breeders, it was removed but now with the changes it has come back. I know that in my breed this is very much a problem. Over refinement and reducing in size to comply with a category that the breed does not belong in has created for a smaller more refined dog.
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