[PuppyKisses]

Hello!
I'm curious how puppies intended for breeding are 'guaranteed' or not. When you buy a new puppy intended for your breeding program, or sell a puppy you know is going to a home who will use them in a breeding program -- what guarantees to you expect or give? Specifically health?
Is dog breeding a gamble this way? That is--if you purchase a pup and later find out it has a genetic disease--is it too bad for the buyer? Or should the breeder make good on this somehow?
Of course, I'm speaking of what an ethical breeder would do...
Thanks very much for thoughts and ideas.

[Todd]

I am not a breeder nor am I very knowledgeable about breeding but one thing I can tell you is when selecting the dog you wish to breed, make sure it has been tested for genetic disorders (for example, hip dysplasia in labradors). Also take a look at the medical records of the dog's blood relatives to see if any diseases are being thrown around the gene pool. It's probably better to get ahold of a dog you intend on breeding as an adult already because you can't make any guarantees on how the puppy will look when it's older. You can only evaluate the parents.

Here is an article I found online that discusses choosing the right puppy. It's not necessarily for breeding purposes, but this should help at least a little bit nevertheless. This article discusses picking the "best" puppy in the litter. Remember, looks aren't the only thing to take into consideration when breeding. Don't forget about medical history, temperament, and energy;

Choosing A Puppy

Follow These Steps When Choosing Your Puppy

So you're ready to take the plunge, you've decided to bring a little puppy into your life.

That's great, but you've still got some important decisions to get right before you select your new housemate.

It's very tempting to simply pick out any of the cute little pups that bound up to you as you visit your puppy breeder. But take your time, do some research and look a little deeper. Choosing a puppy is an important long term decision, why not do everything you can to get it right?

The 8 week mark is the ideal time to pick your puppy up from the breeder. Before this time your puppy needs to be with his/her mother and siblings for his development and socialization.

Friend For Life
General Considerations When Choosing A Puppy

Choosing a well respected and reputable puppy breeder is a critical step towards purchasing a great lifelong companion. Good breeders breed wonderful, hardy specimens of their chosen breed and will never intentionally sell you a poor specimen.

Test drive some adult dogs of the breed you have decided on. Talk to numerous owners and breeders at dog shows and local dog obedience training schools. Spend some time with the dogs and ask questions to the dog handlers. You'll gain plenty of useful, first hand knowledge of the breed by doing this.

Put a phone call through to your local Veterinarian to find out if they have any thoughts about the breed, or know of any problems you should look out for.

When you have identified a few breeders and are ready to check out a litter of puppies get someone experienced to go with you for guidance. Why not utilize someone else's experience and expertise in this important selection process?

Do some research to determine if there are any breed specific ailments you need to be aware of. Certain breeds are prone to various genetic physical and mental problems such as cleft palate, blindness, deafness and hip dysplasia.

Chatting with one or more dog obedience training instructors can give you a valuable insight into almost any dog breed. These people are usually a goldmine of unbiased information - you've just got to coax it out of them!

A Good Breeder Makes Choosing A Puppy Easy
How To Find A Good Puppy Breeder

A good place to locate a good breeder is by contacting your local Kennel Club or Association (Labrador Association of... Beagle Association of...).
Overall appearance and cleanliness of the property/kennel is an obvious giveaway when visiting breeders. If the breeder can't get this basic necessity right, simply turn around and continue your search elsewhere.
Are the breeder's older dogs healthy, well behaved and friendly? Once again this is a giveaway into the type of people you are dealing with.
Is there a waiting list to purchase puppies from this breeder? Good breeders are always popular and it's a good sign if people are prepared to wait in line for their puppies.

Are the pups raised indoors with plenty of human interaction right from the start? Your breeder performs the all important role of beginning the puppy socialization process, house training and some basic obedience training, all well before you will be able to take the puppy home.

Have a good look at the mother (dam) and father (if possible) of the puppies before you choose one out. Check the parents over and ask questions to the breeder, they shouldn't have anything to hide. If possible even look at the grandparents of the puppies. The pedigree of your puppy will provide you with the best insight into what your puppy will grow to be.

Ask how often the puppies are handled and also how many strangers they have been exposed to. The more people they meet early on the better. The pups should also be very comfortable with being handled by people of all shapes and sizes.

Ask all kinds of questions - don't hold back. A good breeder will be happy for you to ask just about anything. Ask about the puppies food requirements, where they are at in the socialization process and anything else you can think of.

Will the breeder allow you to return the pup if for any reason it doesn't work out?

If you are still a little undecided or tossing up between a couple of different breeders you may choose to talk to some previous clients of the breeder. Put in a quick phone call to determine their satisfaction with the breeder. Good puppy breeders have nothing to hide and won't mind if you ask for a few references.

Put your trust in a good breeder when choosing a dog, they will have your best interests at heart. Listen and take on board their advice and recommendations.

Make sure the breeder will provide you with basic instructions regarding your puppy. Things like health care advice (vaccinations, worming), feeding schedule information and also ongoing support should be offered.
Also puppy registration papers should be provided outlining the pedigree, whelping date, vaccination record and other details of your puppy.
Enquire about the reason for this litter of puppies, was it planned? Have this pair been mated in the past?

Choosing Your Puppy - The Selection Process

At first, observe the litter without disturbing them. Look out for things like how the pups interact with each other. An active, playful pup is very desirable, but not one that is dominant or overbearing with his/her litter-mates.
Do a general visual health check of each puppy. They should be nice and round - not fat, and certainly not skinny. Even Greyhounds and Whippets are round little beasts until they are about four months of age.
Look for a confident little pup who struts up to you and your family with head held high and tail wagging with excitement. A bit of a cheeky lick on the hand is also ok.
Have a close look at the pups eyes, ears, gums, teeth and rear end. You want to see bright eyes, a shiny and clean coat, and no sign of any discharge or debris.

Be wary of a shy and fearful pup when choosing a puppy. Pups at the 7-8 week stage shouldn't show any sign of these undesirable traits.
Many people end up selecting a puppy such as this because they feel sorry for them. Don't fall into this trap - it is not a valid reason for picking out a puppy!. It's no good for anyone and you will most likely regret your decision for many years to come.

When you have identified one or two puppies that you like the look of, conduct a bit of a hearing test. With the puppy facing the other way or possibly playing with another member of your family drop a set of keys on the ground or stamp your feet.
The puppy should react immediately, even be a little startled by the noise and then ideally he/she will come over to investigate the commotion. It's very difficult to pick a deaf puppy out of a litter, if the pups are all together in the same pen.

It's important that the puppy you end up choosing has energy levels which are compatible with you and your family's lifestyle. These energy levels will vary a great deal even in the one litter. After spending some time with the puppies you can make a judgment yourself, or the breeder will give you some insight.

Pick the puppy up, hug him and cradle him. This is a bit of a test, if he reacts by squealing and wriggling and doesn't settle down, this is not a good sign. You may experience problems with a puppy such as this. A little struggle is ok, followed by quickly settling down and peering back up at you.
Touch the puppies all over their bodies including paws, mouth and ears to monitor the reaction. A puppy who has been handled from an early age won't have any problem with you doing this.

Many pure bred dogs have breed specific ailments which can cause problems. Check the puppies parents and even grandparents for any sign of breed specific problems. Also check if the pups have been screened for them (if appropriate). This step can save you a whole lot of heartache in the future.

Many larger breeds such as German Shepherds, Labradors and Rottweilers can suffer from hip dysplasia. Check out the family history if you are searching for a puppy susceptible to hip dysplasia.
Check the Vet records of your puppy including vaccination and worming record.
Once you've made the big decision and have your heart set on a puppy it is advisable to have your Veterinarian do a thorough examination of the pup.

Choosing a puppy is an important step towards ensuring you end up with a healthy, well adjusted and happy long term companion.

Once you bring your puppy home it is then your responsibility to provide proper socialization and obedience training. This will shape the temperament and behavior habits of your puppy and set him up to thrive in society.

Good luck - I hope you find you and your family a great puppy!

[Yogi]

Being that you are referring to puppies, testing cannot be done until the pup is 2 years of age. Asking for the testing information on the sire and dam is important.
Working with reputable breeders and dealing with the registered breed clubs is a plus. Pedigree is very important when looking for breeders.
Many things comprise the list of things to look for. Many breeders offer guarantees for health etc for the first 6 months to year.
Check with breeders of the breed you are looking for to determine what is out there. Breeders share many common contracts etc and there are some that vary.

[PuppyKisses]

Thank you for posting this info. I'll be more specific as I may have confused you with my question by trying to be vague. We purchased a dog intended for our breeding program. The dog is now one year and we have had the preliminary hip scoring done. Things do not look good. The dog came from a reputable breeder. The hip scores of both parents are good. There is a contract in place that states a health guarantee.
Now I'm not going to go back to the breeder demanding a refund--that'll just burn bridges and I'm not into that.
I was just wondering what others have encountered when in this situation. So you buy a dog intended for your breeding program and it's hips turn out to be bad. Would a breeder "make good" on the situation somehow? Or is the purchaser out of luck?
If you're a breeder of this dog that now probably has bad hips what do you do?
To put it frankly: is purchasing a pup from good parents supposed to be a gamble? I realize no one can predict to absolute certainty how a dog will turn out. This is more of an ethics question.
Thanks for your thoughts!

[Lunareclipse]

The breeder should give you part of your money back and just charge you for a pet quality dog, rather than a breeding quality dog. Of course the breeder would probably require you to have your pet fixed to ensure that it won't be bred.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by PuppyKisses

Thank you for posting this info. I'll be more specific as I may have confused you with my question by trying to be vague. We purchased a dog intended for our breeding program. The dog is now one year and we have had the preliminary hip scoring done. Things do not look good. The dog came from a reputable breeder. The hip scores of both parents are good. There is a contract in place that states a health guarantee.
Now I'm not going to go back to the breeder demanding a refund--that'll just burn bridges and I'm not into that.
I was just wondering what others have encountered when in this situation. So you buy a dog intended for your breeding program and it's hips turn out to be bad. Would a breeder "make good" on the situation somehow? Or is the purchaser out of luck?
If you're a breeder of this dog that now probably has bad hips what do you do?
To put it frankly: is purchasing a pup from good parents supposed to be a gamble? I realize no one can predict to absolute certainty how a dog will turn out. This is more of an ethics question.
Thanks for your thoughts!

There is a possibility that they will offer one of their dogs for breeding purposes to offset. As noted, even when we are born we do not come with a health guarantee. It is unfortunate but even sound stock can still occasionally develop health issues that are in the dogs genetic make-up.
Original breeders of most purebreds took generations to work out as much of the health issues as they could. Unfortunately many of these issues have returned in many breeds do to breeders trying to overly refine what took the original creators generations to eliminate. We only have the testing available to work from.

[Lara's mom]

I would think that since you bought a breeding dog, the least thing they could do would be to offer you a replacement puppy. However, since hip problems have shown up in their lines, would you really want to take a chance on another dog from this breeder?

[OrangeDog]

With hips especially it is difficult as you can breed 2 dogs that are OFA excellent and still end up with a puppy with HD... genetics play a big part but how the dog is raised is also a BIG part in it including the amount and type of exercise, diet, etc. What breed is this you are dealing with?

As a breeder I offer a 2 year health guarantee an ALL my puppies thats covers hips, elbows, heart and eyes. I have not yet had any problems but in the event I ever did the buyers would have the option to return the dog for a partial refund of a replacement puppy when one is available.

How is the line, the parents hips, grandparents, siblings, etc?

[Lara's mom]

I'm trying to put myself in the members place. If I had raised that dog for all those months, I couldn't just return it. I would neuter the dog and offer it a home with me for the rest of it's life. Isn't it overly harsh to expect people to return a dog they've come to love? As a breeder, you would have to neuter a dog with hip dysplasia anyway because it would be unethical to breed that dog so, why not just let the people keep it and give them a replacement puppy?

[OrangeDog]

sometimes people do not want a dog that will require expensive surgury and/or medication... I have it as an option as all breeders I know do. I have been lucky that I have never had a problem. 98% of the dogs I breed go to pet homes where they are REQUIRED to be fixed and their families must send me the spay/neuter certificate once it is done. Any dog that will remain intact I stay on as a co-owner to make sure the dogs best interests are kept.

[Lara's mom]

Thanks. I was really curious as to how that all worked.

[PuppyKisses]

Thank you for your comments everyone!

Originally Posted by OrangeDog

What breed is this you are dealing with?

As a breeder I offer a 2 year health guarantee an ALL my puppies thats covers hips, elbows, heart and eyes. I have not yet had any problems but in the event I ever did the buyers would have the option to return the dog for a partial refund of a replacement puppy when one is available.

How is the line, the parents hips, grandparents, siblings, etc?

As this is a rare breed I prefer not to answer this question. I don't want to stir up problems. I'm sure you understand.

As breeding this particular breed is our only interest (no other breed will do! which I'm sure is the case for many out there), and it is a rare breed there are not many options out there for dogs. I do believe the return policy is there--but I couldn't do this. This dog is like a kid to me and my family. We love her tremendously. I was inquiring about this because we intend to breed this type of dog in the future--and this seems like a hairy situation to me. That is--I put myself in their place: what if we sell a dog intended for breeding purposes and something goes awry. I would want to offer something, and I agree with the opinions here: half the money back, or a chance for another pup in the future (or stud service for free)
I really appreciate the experience everyone here has to offer! I know what I would do--but that doesn't mean you can force those ethics and ideals on someone else--especially in such a small community for a rare dog breed.

The line is good--in fact the grandparents on the sire's side have perfect hip scores. Siblings are currently being tested--but there are only two being tested (plus our girl) out of nine total puppies.

I would certainly take a discounted puppy in the future--or free stud service. Well, when I get the official results from OFA I'll share them with the breeder and see what happens.

Thank you!!!

[frenchiefans]

What breed is this? What you would expect something like a Bulldog's hip's to look like and a Lab's hip's to look like would usually be different. Were they evaluated by OFA or other org. or maybe a vet that specializes in orthopedics and your breed or just your regular vet? It's also important to remember that during growth stages many will show as not excellent on and off due to growth. Environment does contribute as well. Were they graded good or fair or very low percentage for breed or something?
Did your breeder have a blanket contract and just gave rights and you bought the dog for breeding purposes or did you have seperate agreements and conditions for show/breeding purposes specifically (they are different)? In many cases it is a chance taken the dog will have to be fixed for some reason once they mature and can fully be evaluated and you have to start all over.
An actual contract for show/breeding where they may replace your pup for something like that is usually different and often much more involved.
It can't hurt to talk to them about it but what your purchase contract specifically mentions about it and what the actual agreements you had with your breeder would matter. It may say they do not guarantee for show or breeding quality/purposes but really only defines your pup as a companion and what the agreement is for that if they have a life threatening or crippling defect or whatever and they happened to give you rights. Read your contract again closely and see if you can get a better idea of how they may view this. Good luck.

[Lunareclipse]

What are you breeding? Kurdish Kangals?

[PuppyKisses]

Originally Posted by frenchiefans

Were they evaluated by OFA or other org. or maybe a vet that specializes in orthopedics and your breed or just your regular vet? It's also important to remember that during growth stages many will show as not excellent on and off due to growth. Environment does contribute as well. Were they graded good or fair or very low percentage for breed or something?
Did your breeder have a blanket contract and just gave rights and you bought the dog for breeding purposes or did you have seperate agreements and conditions for show/breeding purposes specifically (they are different)? In many cases it is a chance taken the dog will have to be fixed for some reason once they mature and can fully be evaluated and you have to start all over.
An actual contract for show/breeding where they may replace your pup for something like that is usually different and often much more involved.
It can't hurt to talk to them about it but what your purchase contract specifically mentions about it and what the actual agreements you had with your breeder would matter. It may say they do not guarantee for show or breeding quality/purposes but really only defines your pup as a companion and what the agreement is for that if they have a life threatening or crippling defect or whatever and they happened to give you rights. Read your contract again closely and see if you can get a better idea of how they may view this. Good luck.

Hips must be evaluated by OFA per the breed registry. What we have had done are preliminary hip scores as our dog is just one year old. I am waiting to get the official scores back from OFA--but our vet says that she will probably not pass (although our vet has never seen this breed before). However--someone else told me that OFA compares an individual only to others within the same breed, not one individual to all dogs. I knew this was true for PennHip, but true for OFA, too?
There are separate contracts for pet vs. breeding dog. The contract says hips are guaranteed for two years. Regardless of what their contract says--I was curious about everyone's opinion. This way, I can incorporate these things into our contracts when we have puppies to offer. I will talk to our breeder about our current dog. Just more curious about what is "normal" in the dog breeding world to offer in contracts. I don't want to promise the moon if it is not the usual thing to do.
So, if the scores come back border line (fair) would you suggest retesting at 2 years of age? I see the OFA site states that a prelim score of excellent or good will more than likely pass at two years of age. Being that this is a new breed, there are so few of them, and that they are very expensive I would be tempted to wait and have her re-scored instead of spaying her immediately.
Our dog's littermate's hip scores came back "good."

[Lara's mom]

Do you mean a rare purebred or a "designer dog?" Nowhere have you mentioned the words, "purebred or pedigree". That really makes me wonder just what exactly you are attempting to breed. I really do not understand how breeding a rare purebred dog would "cause problems."

[Yogi]

Now I am also curious, this has gone from being a rare breed to a new breed in the course of just a few replies. I do not believe this is actually a recognized purebred but one that is a mix that maybe is being recognized by one of the many mixed breed registries. A rare breed would be something like the Pravsky Krysarik, established and has been around for over a 1000 years where it has only come back to prominence in its homeland. A new breed signifies this is a mutt or some type of designer breed. Which may explain the remark that the OP does not want to stir anything up. Maybe answers to these questions she be withheld pending actual information such as breed or mix, size etc. Otherwise how can one provide informed replies if all the facts are not provided.

[OrangeDog]

I agree with Yogi... unless there is something to hide, why not share your breed with us. The rest of us have and are PROUD of our breeds.

OFA does not look at the breed, just at the xray.. if they are looking at greyhound hips all day and then look at a bulldog the bulldog will look poor in comparison and this may caus the bulldog to fail his OFA even if the hips are fine for the breed.

[PuppyKisses]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

Do you mean a rare purebred or a "designer dog?" Nowhere have you mentioned the words, "purebred or pedigree". That really makes me wonder just what exactly you are attempting to breed. I really do not understand how breeding a rare purebred dog would "cause problems."

Oh, I just mean I don't want to cause problems for the breeder. They are ethical breeders, and wonderful people.

Originally Posted by Lunareclipse

What are you breeding? Kurdish Kangals?

Hey, those are cute! But no. No Kangals for me.

[Lara's mom]

Sorry. That just doesn't cut it. Any ethical breeder is proud of their breed and wouldn't want to hide anything...Something doesn't smell quite right here...