[Swilliams]

Hello,

Our family has two purebred miniature schnauzers, one male and one female. The male was bred by a local and reputable breeder, who has become our mentor over the years. Two years ago our dogs bred successfully and had five beautiful, healthy puppies. We recently decided to breed one last time, however, our outcome was drastically different. Our female was due on March 18th (from the first date that they tied), but she went into labor on March 11th.

The first two puppies were born alive and later died. We packed up the car and our dog and headed over to the breeders house for assistance, answers, something- and our dog gave birth to a dead puppy in the car. Puppy #4 and #5 were born at the breeder's home, but they died as well. Four puppies probably would have survived if they hadn't been born so early.

We took her to the vet because at this point we of course wanted to make sure our dog was okay. They told us she didn't have any more puppies inside of her and that she looked okay, was acting normal, etc. They have no reason to believe that this was caused by an infectious disease because she is up-to-date on shots and hasn't been bred with another dog; our male hasn't either. Based on the fact that she had a healthy litter before, and also because four puppies were born alive but died because they were premature (the vet actually looked at two of them and confirmed they were premature but otherwise looked normal without any abnormalities), they believe that this is an isolated event. Most likely cause, I'm told, is that her body was trying to expel the dead puppy which caused her to go into preterm labor.

Have you ever experienced or heard of something like this? Thank goodness our dog is safe, and otherwise healthy, but we are looking for closure. We trust the vet but since we do not know for sure I was hoping to get some feedback from other breeders too, in addition to the breeder that is mentoring us. Thank you.

[Yogi]

What your vet described as a reason, I have heard of before. Never experienced
this myself but have from other breeders. It is rare from my understanding though.

[Todd]

I would have more tests done at the vet but it could be that the dog was on a poor diet and lacked the nutrition to give birth to strong pups. What were you feeding the mother? Also it could be the pups were too big for the mother to easily give birth too and the straining was hard on the pups. I'd do more with vet though to rule out ALL possible infections.

[Yogi]

Todd, as one who breeds based on the comment that 4 were born alive they were not too big otherwise she would not have been able to deliver them at all.
The vet determined that they were intact outside of premature. A dead pup in the womb would cause premature delivery which is all it would have taken for this to happen and can assure you diet would have nothing to do with it so long as the dog was fed as taught by their breeding mentor. Sometimes this just happens. Same with people, there is not just an explanation for it.
The other issue is that in small breeds multiple births assist in keeping the pups smaller due to limited space in the womb. Had she only had one pup, they you would worry as in many cases it would grow to large where in a c section would have been needed.
Being that the pups were intact with no abnormalities indicates that the cause of death is strictly due to premature birth a change of diet or checking further for an illness that has been determined to not exist only prolongs the issue.
The question in fact was answered by the vet with regards to the circumstances pertaining to why the pups died. Sometimes it is difficult to accept the fact that puppies like children can and do die. It is not easy but looking for answers when they have already been provided only prolongs the agony of the loss. As the vet noted, it is an isolated case. As breeders I know had mentioned. Theirs went on to have litters with no problems later and it was the same situation, a pup died in the womb which triggers the dams body to expel it in hopes of saving the others. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. But if the dam does not expel it, it can lead to her own death. The dams body is doing what it must to survive.
My dams are fed puppy chow and have produced extremely healthy pups at birth. I know others who feed them standard dry adult up to the birth than switch them to puppy chow and have healthy pups. There is no certainty in the food provided to the dam as to whether this even will happen as there is no way with human infants being born. The dam is prepped for delivery the best that it can be depending on the breeders experience. With this it still comes down to the dam. Being that one was born dead only indicates she was doing what is natural, expelling it to prevent her own death which unfortunately means risking the others in the litter. As they were born alive but died, the only conclusion to draw from this based on what experience I have from other breeders is that they were premature. It happens whether we like it or not. The pup most likely died as it would have been the runt. Not uncommon since they are usually the furthest down in the womb where there is less nutrients. A runt can also be a caused from a late breeding.
Conceiving the first 4 than a week later the last one. The first 4 already have a week on the last one where they are receiving more than the last one conceived and therefore it dies due to lack of what is needed to develop than survive. The vet did not note any issues with the canal or passing the pups which if they were too large would have been indicated. Based on what the OP states and what the vet noted, from a breeder standpoint I can see how it happened. Unfortunately, most people who own dogs have never gone through the whelping process so they really do not know what all is involved.
But as I stated, the breeders I know that have dealt with this all had noted premature births due to a still born pup and were told the same thing. The pup had died in the womb and the dam needed to expel it in hopes of survival of herself as well as any chance of the remaining litter. It is no different in the wild.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Todd, as one who breeds based on the comment that 4 were born alive they were not too big otherwise she would not have been able to deliver them at all.
The vet determined that they were intact outside of premature. A dead pup in the womb would cause premature delivery which is all it would have taken for this to happen and can assure you diet would have nothing to do with it so long as the dog was fed as taught by their breeding mentor. Sometimes this just happens. Same with people, there is not just an explanation for it.
The other issue is that in small breeds multiple births assist in keeping the pups smaller due to limited space in the womb. Had she only had one pup, they you would worry as in many cases it would grow to large where in a c section would have been needed.
Being that the pups were intact with no abnormalities indicates that the cause of death is strictly due to premature birth a change of diet or checking further for an illness that has been determined to not exist only prolongs the issue.
The question in fact was answered by the vet with regards to the circumstances pertaining to why the pups died. Sometimes it is difficult to accept the fact that puppies like children can and do die. It is not easy but looking for answers when they have already been provided only prolongs the agony of the loss. As the vet noted, it is an isolated case. As breeders I know had mentioned. Theirs went on to have litters with no problems later and it was the same situation, a pup died in the womb which triggers the dams body to expel it in hopes of saving the others. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. But if the dam does not expel it, it can lead to her own death. The dams body is doing what it must to survive.
My dams are fed puppy chow and have produced extremely healthy pups at birth. I know others who feed them standard dry adult up to the birth than switch them to puppy chow and have healthy pups. There is no certainty in the food provided to the dam as to whether this even will happen as there is no way with human infants being born. The dam is prepped for delivery the best that it can be depending on the breeders experience. With this it still comes down to the dam. Being that one was born dead only indicates she was doing what is natural, expelling it to prevent her own death which unfortunately means risking the others in the litter. As they were born alive but died, the only conclusion to draw from this based on what experience I have from other breeders is that they were premature. It happens whether we like it or not. The pup most likely died as it would have been the runt. Not uncommon since they are usually the furthest down in the womb where there is less nutrients. A runt can also be a caused from a late breeding.
Conceiving the first 4 than a week later the last one. The first 4 already have a week on the last one where they are receiving more than the last one conceived and therefore it dies due to lack of what is needed to develop than survive. The vet did not note any issues with the canal or passing the pups which if they were too large would have been indicated. Based on what the OP states and what the vet noted, from a breeder standpoint I can see how it happened. Unfortunately, most people who own dogs have never gone through the whelping process so they really do not know what all is involved.
But as I stated, the breeders I know that have dealt with this all had noted premature births due to a still born pup and were told the same thing. The pup had died in the womb and the dam needed to expel it in hopes of survival of herself as well as any chance of the remaining litter. It is no different in the wild.

Not sure is this would have anything to do with it, but how old were the mother and father and did they ever have any previous healthy conditions or have any whatsoever now? Maybe having pups at an older age could cause this??? I'm really not sure. Just a thought. What do you think Yogi?

[Lara's mom]

I'm really sorry to hear of this happening. It must have been a terrible shock. I agree with Yogi that diet played no part in the death of these little pups. Just like sometimes human babies are just born too early to survive, so was it with this litter of puppies. Don't blame yourself. There is nothing you could have done to prevent this. Sometimes, bad things just happen.

I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but it seems sensible to me to give the mom a good long time to recover before attempting to breed her again.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

I'm really sorry to hear of this happening. It must have been a terrible shock. I agree with Yogi that diet played no part in the death of these little pups. Just like sometimes human babies are just born too early to survive, so was it with this litter of puppies. Don't blame yourself. There is nothing you could have done to prevent this. Sometimes, bad things just happen.

I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but it seems sensible to me to give the mom a good long time to recover before attempting to breed her again.

I don't think this is a result of premature birth. She said her vet told her that the dead babies looked physically fine if you look in the original post.

[Lara's mom]

Unless I'm somehow reading the post incorrectly, my understanding was that the vet indicated that there were no abnormalities but that the pups were premature.

Yogi: Perhaps you can clarify this?

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Swilliams

Hello,

Our family has two purebred miniature schnauzers, one male and one female. The male was bred by a local and reputable breeder, who has become our mentor over the years. Two years ago our dogs bred successfully and had five beautiful, healthy puppies. We recently decided to breed one last time, however, our outcome was drastically different. Our female was due on March 18th (from the first date that they tied), but she went into labor on March 11th.

The first two puppies were born alive and later died. We packed up the car and our dog and headed over to the breeders house for assistance, answers, something- and our dog gave birth to a dead puppy in the car. Puppy #4 and #5 were born at the breeder's home, but they died as well. Four puppies probably would have survived if they hadn't been born so early.

We took her to the vet because at this point we of course wanted to make sure our dog was okay. They told us she didn't have any more puppies inside of her and that she looked okay, was acting normal, etc. They have no reason to believe that this was caused by an infectious disease because she is up-to-date on shots and hasn't been bred with another dog; our male hasn't either. Based on the fact that she had a healthy litter before, and also because four puppies were born alive but died because they were premature (the vet actually looked at two of them and confirmed they were premature but otherwise looked normal without any abnormalities), they believe that this is an isolated event. Most likely cause, I'm told, is that her body was trying to expel the dead puppy which caused her to go into preterm labor.

Have you ever experienced or heard of something like this? Thank goodness our dog is safe, and otherwise healthy, but we are looking for closure. We trust the vet but since we do not know for sure I was hoping to get some feedback from other breeders too, in addition to the breeder that is mentoring us. Thank you.

Sounds like the were premature but because of no other abnormalities this was not the cause of death?

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Todd

Not sure is this would have anything to do with it, but how old were the mother and father and did they ever have any previous healthy conditions or have any whatsoever now? Maybe having pups at an older age could cause this??? I'm really not sure. Just a thought. What do you think Yogi?

This in fact could explain some of it but as the dog had a previous litter a year earlier with no complications and that the OP noted they had worked with a reputable breeder for mentoring indicates to me that most likely the dogs are proper age. But, yes if the dam was too young or too old there is always a risk to both the dam and any pups.

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

Unless I'm somehow reading the post incorrectly, my understanding was that the vet indicated that there were no abnormalities but that the pups were premature.

Yogi: Perhaps you can clarify this?

Like a premature child when a woman gives birth the obvious is reviewed to determine if the child could survive or how premature. Dogs gestation period is on average 63 days. I have heard of litters born as early as 58 and as late as 65 with no problems. We date the calender when a dog is bred and then count out 63 days. When a child is a month premature it has a very good chance of survival with proper care. A puppy that is premature by 2 or 3 weeks has lost a great deal of that 63 gestation period to develop. Being that these pups were only about a week or so early the vet view each pup for things like the nails, mouth, feet, joints to access if they are developed. If they are and there is no exterior signs such as spina bifida then the determination can be somewhat accurate in that the pups were simply premature with no other reasons for their death. A friend of mine recently had a litter of 3 Chi pups. She has been breeding for years. All of them weighed hardly an ounce and the dam went full term. Not one puppy survived. It is unfortunate, but this happens in life no matter what the species. But according to the OP, the vet viewed the pups to determine based on physical appearance to see if there was issues that would have caused it. As none, premature birth then becomes the most common reason. Keeping in mind, these are not large puppies in the first place. They probably only weight at 6 or 7 ounces if that.
One other note, the OP stated that the dam was fine which tells me had the pups died from an illness the dam would also be ill. Considering it is her blood, nutrients and body that was keeping them alive. As she was given a clean bill of health this would explain why the vet determined that prematurity was the cause of death in the pups.
To clarify one point, when the pup is physically viewed and no signs of abnormalities on premature births the conclusion most common is death due to premature birth. This in sense covers internal organs that have not fully developed to sustain life on its own. Externally the dogs development could be fine but premature issues as we see in children such as lungs, heart etc is also a factor in premature puppies. They look to be normal on the outside but this in no way means that they have completely developed on the inside.

[Swilliams]

Originally Posted by Todd

Not sure is this would have anything to do with it, but how old were the mother and father and did they ever have any previous healthy conditions or have any whatsoever now? Maybe having pups at an older age could cause this??? I'm really not sure. Just a thought. What do you think Yogi?

The mother is 3.5 years old, and the father is 2.5 years old. None have previous health conditions or I wouldn't have bred them. I really don't feel that we did anything wrong- we even made sure she had an extra meal or two every day.

Originally Posted by Todd

I don't think this is a result of premature birth. She said her vet told her that the dead babies looked physically fine if you look in the original post.

Let me clarify: the four pups that were born alive were physically fine, but died because they were premature. The pup that was born dead wasn't as formed as the other four and was a soft, dark brown color. However, we didn't have this pup, born dead, to take to the vet. The vet looked at two of the four pups that were born alive and determined they seemed to be fine but died from prematurity. We described what the pup born dead looked like and based on everything we told him he thinks she went into premature labor to expel that dead pup that wasn't as physically formed as the other four.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Swilliams

The mother is 3.5 years old, and the father is 2.5 years old. None have previous health conditions or I wouldn't have bred them. I really don't feel that we did anything wrong- we even made sure she had an extra meal or two every day.



Let me clarify: the four pups that were born alive were physically fine, but died because they were premature. The pup that was born dead wasn't as formed as the other four and was a soft, dark brown color. However, we didn't have this pup, born dead, to take to the vet. The vet looked at two of the four pups that were born alive and determined they seemed to be fine but died from prematurity. We described what the pup born dead looked like and based on everything we told him he thinks she went into premature labor to expel that dead pup that wasn't as physically formed as the other four.

Based on your original post, I do not see where you did anything wrong. This is just an unfortunate part of nature and is something that on occasion happens. Sorry for the loss of the new ones. With all my dogs that I have lost over my years I can understand even when only a few hours old, it is still a loss that hurts. I am glad to hear that the dam is doing ok.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Swilliams

The mother is 3.5 years old, and the father is 2.5 years old. None have previous health conditions or I wouldn't have bred them. I really don't feel that we did anything wrong- we even made sure she had an extra meal or two every day.



Let me clarify: the four pups that were born alive were physically fine, but died because they were premature. The pup that was born dead wasn't as formed as the other four and was a soft, dark brown color. However, we didn't have this pup, born dead, to take to the vet. The vet looked at two of the four pups that were born alive and determined they seemed to be fine but died from prematurity. We described what the pup born dead looked like and based on everything we told him he thinks she went into premature labor to expel that dead pup that wasn't as physically formed as the other four.

Oh, ok. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

[Swilliams]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Based on your original post, I do not see where you did anything wrong. This is just an unfortunate part of nature and is something that on occasion happens. Sorry for the loss of the new ones. With all my dogs that I have lost over my years I can understand even when only a few hours old, it is still a loss that hurts. I am glad to hear that the dam is doing ok.

Yogi, thank you for sharing your knowledge with me- it's been very helpful. I appreciate your detailed posts. I think this will help with closure. We are just very happy our dam is okay. She whines off and on when my husband isn't home but cuddles with me (as she is now). You can tell she really needs comfort. We are uncertain if we will breed again- it appears unlikely that this will happen again but we just don't want to put our little sweetheart through this again. This is something that we will talk about and discuss over the next year. Thanks again.

[OrangeDog]

I am sorry for your loss, but I really do not feel you did ANYTHING wrong. This was just an unfortunate turn of events that you had no control of.

Just curious... did you test both parents for Brucelosis?

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Swilliams

Yogi, thank you for sharing your knowledge with me- it's been very helpful. I appreciate your detailed posts. I think this will help with closure. We are just very happy our dam is okay. She whines off and on when my husband isn't home but cuddles with me (as she is now). You can tell she really needs comfort. We are uncertain if we will breed again- it appears unlikely that this will happen again but we just don't want to put our little sweetheart through this again. This is something that we will talk about and discuss over the next year. Thanks again.

When a dam loses a litter like a mother losing her child at birth they do need time to adjust. They understand the loss and can become somewhat out of sorts to put it. One of mine lost her only pup to spina bifida, still born and she was extremely upset for over a week constantly looking for it. It will take time for her to get back to herself but with you just being patient and holding her when she is upset helps a great deal.

[Swilliams]

Originally Posted by OrangeDog

I am sorry for your loss, but I really do not feel you did ANYTHING wrong. This was just an unfortunate turn of events that you had no control of.

Just curious... did you test both parents for Brucelosis?

No, we haven't because we've owned both dogs since they were puppies and they have only bred with each other. And they had a healthy litter before so the vet didn't think it was an infectious disease.

Originally Posted by Yogi

When a dam loses a litter like a mother losing her child at birth they do need time to adjust. They understand the loss and can become somewhat out of sorts to put it. One of mine lost her only pup to spina bifida, still born and she was extremely upset for over a week constantly looking for it. It will take time for her to get back to herself but with you just being patient and holding her when she is upset helps a great deal.

Yes, this is what we are experiencing, though she isn't looking for her litter. She just constantly wants to be held. She was always a cuddly dog but now much more so- doesn't want us to leave or even if I'm home and my hubby leaves she gets upset. She's cuddling with me now.

[OrangeDog]

according to my repro vet even dogs who have not been bred can get brucellosis. What you described sounds like cases I have heard of involving breeding positive dogs.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by OrangeDog

according to my repro vet even dogs who have not been bred can get brucellosis. What you described sounds like cases I have heard of involving breeding positive dogs.

Here's some interesting information I dug up online on this disease;

Brucellosis in Dogs

General Information

Brucellosis is caused by bacteria known as Brucella canis. The disease spreads from one dog to another during breeding or oral contact with vaginal discharges, aborted fetuses and placentas, semen or urine. It occurs most frequently in breeding kennels, though family pets may become infected also.

Pregnant females with brucellosis abort their puppies, while nonpregnant bitches may fail to conceive when bred. Males develop swelling of the testicles and usually become sterile. Some dogs appear to be in excellent health yet are infected and capable of spreading the disease.

Diagnosis is by blood culture and/or blood testing. More than one blood sample is usually required.

Public Health Significance

Brucellosis can affect people, though the chance of infection appears to be remote. Have your physician contact your veterinarian.

Important Points in Treatment

There is no effective treatment for dogs with brucellosis, and no vaccine for prevention is available. Since the disease may spread to other dogs and may also be a threat to human health, the pet may have to be euthanized (put to sleep). Treament can be attempted and testing done to confirm success. Infected animals should be neutered if they have not been prior to diagnosis

Disease Control

The only practical method for controlling brucellosis is identification of infected animals by blood test. Any dog used for breeding purposes should be tested prior to each breeding period. The mate to be used for breeding should be tested PRIOR to exposure for breeding purposes.



Understanding your pet's diagnosis

Brucellosis

Brucellosis is a disease caused by Brucella canis which is a bacteria that was first isolated from dead puppy fetuses in the middle 1960’s. It is the most common bacteria that can infect bitches and their fetuses. It seems that over the years much has been written on brucellosis in breeding dogs but despite it all, infection rates may run as high as 8-10%. That’s right, it is suspected that one in ten dogs in this country may carry Brucella canis.

Brucella canis also poses a significant public health hazard since it is transmissible to humans especially those handling aborted fetuses. Humans may develop a serious liver impairment or arthritis.

Medical advancements in controlling this disease have been few and far between. Contrary to some opinions, it is a very difficult disorder to treat and in most cases, treatment is unsuccessful. A prevalent attitude among many people is that "if my dogs get it, then I will treat it." This is a serious mistake because you probably will not cure it and if you do, the individual will probably be sterile or be a poor breeding specimen.

Transmission of Brucella canis
B. canis is sexually transmitted by the mating of infected males and females. Brucella canis in the female dog will live in the vaginal and uterine tissue and secretions for years and except in rare cases, for life. The infected female usually appears healthy with no signs of disease or indication that she is a "carrier" or harborer of the organisms. She can spread the bacteria to other animals through her urine, aborted fetuses, or most commonly through the act of breeding. Once pregnant, the bacteria will also infect the developing fetuses causing illness.

In males, the Brucella bacteria live in the testicles and seminal fluids. An infected male is just as dangerous as the female as he can spread the Brucella bacteria via his urine or semen. Often times there are no signs except in advanced cases when the testicles may be uneven in size.

Litters are commonly aborted, usually in the last two weeks of gestation, or the puppies may die shortly after birth. If a pregnant dog aborts after 45 days of gestation, you should be highly suspicious of brucellosis. Usually the fetuses are partially decayed and accompanied by a gray to green vaginal discharge. This discharge can have very high numbers of Brucella canis. If embryos die early, they may be resorbed and the female may never appear to be pregnant at all.

What are the risks?
The risks are great. Since the Brucella canis organisms are transmissible to humans, it is best to avoid all contact with the dead fetuses and their associated vaginal discharge. The infected mother will likely be unable to sustain a pregnancy in the future. Furthermore she would likely transmit the disease to any male which breeds her causing fertility problems in him as well.

Testing
Testing for Brucellosis usually requires a blood test by your veterinarian and all positives should be retested for a confirmation. Since Brucella canis is mainly spread by the act of breeding, it is paramount to test all canines, male and female, prior to breeding. Test between every breeding of different animals. In other words, if a male (or female) was tested one year ago but has bred since, it must be tested again. In the case of a male, if he serviced a female since his last test, then he must be tested again even if his last test was as recent as four weeks ago. Testing is the only sure way to detect carriers.

In cases of abortion, the bacteria may be isolated from the aborted fetuses. Blood tests can also be performed on the mother's blood to help confirm a positive diagnosis of Brucellosis.

Prevention
When possible, all incoming breeding dogs should be isolated for two weeks upon arrival at the kennel. At the end of two weeks, have the individual (male or female) tested by your veterinarian for brucellosis. Do this even if the dog was tested before shipment. This may seem excessive but you will spend a lot more money if Brucellosis creeps into your kennel, not to mention the disruption in your breeding program and loss of genetic potential.

Artificial Insemination (AI) can lessen the risk of Brucella transfer at breeding. While rare, transmission of Brucella canis to a bitch can occur during AI, especially if infected semen is used. However, AI will protect an infected female from transferring it to a noninfected male.

All positive males and females should not be bred. Surgical spaying or neutering of these individuals is recommended. Various blood tests are available to screen breeding dogs (male and female) and identify those who are infected (carriers). All individuals used for breeding should be routinely tested prior to breeding.

Treatment
There is no reliable treatment for Brucellosis. Brucella canis lives inside of the dog's cells so it it difficult to reach the bacteria with antibiotics. Any attempt at treatment would require the use of multiple types of antibiotics. Various antibiotics such as doxycycline, minocycline and dihydrostreptomycin have been partially effective at causing a temporary reduction in the bacterial organisms after several weeks of treatment. A complete cure is unlikely. It is recommended that infected animals be castrated or spayed.

As a rule, do not breed with an individual that is said to be treated and cured. (Unless of course it is the last of its breed and even that would be questionable.) "Cured" patients often begin shedding the bacteria months to years after treatments...Don't knowingly take a chance.

Human health hazards
People can become infected with Brucella canis. People should avoid contact with dead fetuses or the discharge from aborting dogs. Transmission has also occurred from contact with secretions from male dogs.

In conclusion, test and isolate. Do not rely on an uncertain cure. If you do not heed these suggestions, then you are playing with fire in your kennel and perhaps with your own health. Remember, statistically one out of ten dogs may be carriers and those are very disturbing odds.

[Lara's mom]

Do male dogs get this disease too? If my (hopefully some day breeding male) tests positive for this, should I have him neutered? It doesn't sound as if this is something that can be cured. Would it affect his health other than to make him sterile? I would never want to be responsible for passing something like this on to another dog.