[Todd]

Originally Posted by mellyodieo

I have looked for signs of stress....I dont see any....He is playful and loving but his hair is falling out...since I talked with you last the mange has gotten worse...The weather has warmed up and with it a majority of his hair on his back fell out....you can see the pink of his skin on his sides and back up to his head which is unaffected....The vet is not sure what happened...I personally think it is that he has never 100% gotten rid of the mites long enough to heal his immune system....I talked with the breeder and she said no other pups out of that litter have any problems and he was the last one left....the others left at 6 weeks I got him at 8 weeks....I am frusterated and not sure what to do now except have him dipped and start the process all over again....the thing that gives me pause is that all the chemicals are hard on him and it may lower his immune system further....thank you all for all of your advice it has been very helpful

Have you done anything differently with his diet? I know Yogi and other may disagree but it is my personal opinion that food is one of the mosdt powerful healing agents. Although I'm not saying that this is surely going to cure the entire problem, I strongly feel that a change in diet could potentially make a dramatic improvement. It's at least worth a shot, right? For example, I know a dog who had a dull coat with a lot of bald sopts and the dog switched to a raw diet and before long her coat was shiny as ever and the bald sopts were gone. Diet can help tremendously with the immune system function. Again, I'm not saying this will cure everything but I def. think it's worth a shot. If nothing else it will improve the situation and make your dog healthier overall. Have you considered the raw diet anymore? Home-cooked? At least a high quality kibble? Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks.

Todd

Here's a great article that talks about mange as well as diet tips;

http://www.thewholedog.org/artDemodex.html

[Yogi]

Todd, you are not following what I am saying probably because you do not actually have hands on experience so you are relying on generic information from the net.
First, I if you look agreed with you that diet does play into the immune system and can bolster it. What you don't seem to grasp at this time is the fact the dog already has demodex and this must be treated first. No matter what you do to the immune system it will not cure the mange. I pointed this out and thought you understood the need to stay on topic here. What can you offer with regards to the dogs mange..Diet is not going to cure it and if it does by some odd chance, it would in all likelihood take far too long making the problem worse.
Has the OP taken the time to address the Mitaban solution? The concern for dealing with mange outweighs the diet issue at this time. As one who has 50 plus years dealing with issues in dogs I can tell you that we need to first resolve the mange than if you want to preach diet and food to the Op feel free. But at this time with no hands on experience are you offering advice based on experience or just shooting from the hip because you read an article.
We have an obligation to point out that first we can offer information based on what we read and then point out in the same sentence that we have no real experience only what an article claims. Or we offer experience and years of dealing with issues and here are some based on experience that have proven to work. Mitaban has been proven to work and is far less intrusive chemically than ivermectin.
Once the mite issue is somewhat under control a proper diet in conjunction will afford the immune system to start to improve but the fact is, this is a puppy who's immune system is already not fully developed and we have yet to hear from the OP as to whether this pup was tested for in anyway for auto immune deficiency. The OP needs to be addressing with the vet to rule out all issues.
The other point I made and is unfortunately common is the lack of research into breeders. Pups do not go home at 6 weeks. At that age there is no way they could have even had all their puppy boosters and for that matter even at 8 weeks.
Puppy boosters are what is missing. When the dam no longer allows the pups to nurse this is first phase of weaning. This occurs at approx 4 to 6 weeks of age. Breeders have no business forcing the early phase of nursing onto solids.
By doing this the pup loses out on the nutrients needed that is designed to bolster their immune system. The first puppy booster is not given until approx 2 weeks after the nursing continues with the next 2 weeks later and the last 2 weeks after that. Now, explain to me how this pup had all its boosters at 8 weeks unless it was weaned off nursing at 2 weeks. I do not think so. Especially if they were only 6 weeks old when the first ones went. Being that you do not give puppy shots randomly but to all in the litter on the same schedule, there is no way that the shots would have been given properly. Selling a pup this early is simply not being responsible. In turn the pup suffers as this one obviously is as the puppy shots are designed to continue where the dams milk left off. Adding goats milk even at this age would improve its immune system since by rights it is still a puppy. Your need to focus on the demodex and the fact that this is a puppy therefore its immune system is already naturally weak therefore it will stay so until the demodex is addressed. At that time then the OP needs to resolve the immune system issue. Hopefully they will get the pup tested so they can rule out immune system deficiency.
In the interim, they need to look at what to do with regards to addressing the demodex now while it is still somewhat controllable.
I hope you can come up with solutions for this and less preaching the diet to a dog that needs immediate help now not down the road.
I think you can agree with me on the topic of how to cure the demodex issue
and worry about improving the immune system once the demodex starts to clear up. Then your ideas of diet etc can work hand in hand with the addressing the immune system. But at the same time the OP needs to address the other issues with their vet or no matter what, we cannot offer advice based on anything until all issues have been ruled out.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Todd, you are not following what I am saying probably because you do not actually have hands on experience so you are relying on generic information from the net.
First, I if you look agreed with you that diet does play into the immune system and can bolster it. What you don't seem to grasp at this time is the fact the dog already has demodex and this must be treated first. No matter what you do to the immune system it will not cure the mange. I pointed this out and thought you understood the need to stay on topic here. What can you offer with regards to the dogs mange..Diet is not going to cure it and if it does by some odd chance, it would in all likelihood take far too long making the problem worse.
Has the OP taken the time to address the Mitaban solution? The concern for dealing with mange outweighs the diet issue at this time. As one who has 50 plus years dealing with issues in dogs I can tell you that we need to first resolve the mange than if you want to preach diet and food to the Op feel free. But at this time with no hands on experience are you offering advice based on experience or just shooting from the hip because you read an article.
We have an obligation to point out that first we can offer information based on what we read and then point out in the same sentence that we have no real experience only what an article claims. Or we offer experience and years of dealing with issues and here are some based on experience that have proven to work. Mitaban has been proven to work and is far less intrusive chemically than ivermectin.
Once the mite issue is somewhat under control a proper diet in conjunction will afford the immune system to start to improve but the fact is, this is a puppy who's immune system is already not fully developed and we have yet to hear from the OP as to whether this pup was tested for in anyway for auto immune deficiency. The OP needs to be addressing with the vet to rule out all issues.
The other point I made and is unfortunately common is the lack of research into breeders. Pups do not go home at 6 weeks. At that age there is no way they could have even had all their puppy boosters and for that matter even at 8 weeks.
Puppy boosters are what is missing. When the dam no longer allows the pups to nurse this is first phase of weaning. This occurs at approx 4 to 6 weeks of age. Breeders have no business forcing the early phase of nursing onto solids.
By doing this the pup loses out on the nutrients needed that is designed to bolster their immune system. The first puppy booster is not given until approx 2 weeks after the nursing continues with the next 2 weeks later and the last 2 weeks after that. Now, explain to me how this pup had all its boosters at 8 weeks unless it was weaned off nursing at 2 weeks. I do not think so. Especially if they were only 6 weeks old when the first ones went. Being that you do not give puppy shots randomly but to all in the litter on the same schedule, there is no way that the shots would have been given properly. Selling a pup this early is simply not being responsible. In turn the pup suffers as this one obviously is as the puppy shots are designed to continue where the dams milk left off. Adding goats milk even at this age would improve its immune system since by rights it is still a puppy. Your need to focus on the demodex and the fact that this is a puppy therefore its immune system is already naturally weak therefore it will stay so until the demodex is addressed. At that time then the OP needs to resolve the immune system issue. Hopefully they will get the pup tested so they can rule out immune system deficiency.
In the interim, they need to look at what to do with regards to addressing the demodex now while it is still somewhat controllable.
I hope you can come up with solutions for this and less preaching the diet to a dog that needs immediate help now not down the road.
I think you can agree with me on the topic of how to cure the demodex issue
and worry about improving the immune system once the demodex starts to clear up. Then your ideas of diet etc can work hand in hand with the addressing the immune system. But at the same time the OP needs to address the other issues with their vet or no matter what, we cannot offer advice based on anything until all issues have been ruled out.

Again, I am NOT saying that diet alone is going to cure the mange. I'm stating that I believe that it will certainly help. I'm not saying diet neccessarily caused the mange, I'm saying that I believe diet may be exagerating its effects. You even agreed that diet would help. This is something to try in conjuction with treatment. I'm not saying this is the sole answer to the situation or anything like that. I am a firm believer that food heals but again, that is certainly not the only factor involved or possible not even the major issue in the situation. I'm just suggesting to try a new diet and see what happens. I feel that a diet change would show significant improvement but will not neccessarily "cure" the mange. Again, just my opinion. Not only do I believe in proper nutrition to help with this situation but rather in health in general. The OP does need to address the other issues but a diet change in the meantime can do nothing but positive things. It is a great complementary treatment (in my opinion) to go along with other treatment.

[Yogi]

Yes, I had already agreed with you regarding diet so why did your opening remark state "I know Yogi and other may disagree but it is my personal opinion that food is one of the mosdt powerful healing agents." This made no sense since I had already stated that yes, diet can help the immune system. But instead you take aim without confirming.
Will diet help the immune system, yes. Unfortunately though we are dealing with demodex mange which is the primary concern at this time. Demodex in all likelihood will not clear itself up with just diet unless we were talking about a mature dog instead of a puppy. Being the age of this pup at time it went home, begs to wonder why and where is the proof of the puppy shots it should have had which again could not have been administered (all 3) by age 8 weeks.
These puppy boosters bolster the pups immune system the same way the dams natural milk does which is why you wait til after it is no longer nursing otherwise it is redundant to give a booster for the same thing that the dams milk is providing. By implying that I may disagree contradicts your own remark in the last post of yours where you state I did agree. I agreed before this but at the same time explained that experience teaches you that first you need to deal with the disease than the prevention. A diet if in fact is causing the immune system harm which ingredients in dog food is no guarantee does, than deal with the real issue first than emphasize the follow up. Remember, the dog is not suffering from a lack of immune system issues since no test has been done to prove it but fact is the dog is suffering from Demodex. Therefore you deal with the fact not the assumption. Therefore, deal with the demodex issue by addressing the cures via meds than introduce diet change if necessary. Being again, this is still a puppy. Proper diet should have been addressed by the breeder and if the OP did not know, they should have inquired with the vet or someone who breeds and raises pups. Unfortunately, websites do not raise let alone breed puppies and in many cases authors of most website writings have never had hands on experience themselves but gathered it from numerous sources which always leads to issues of credibility. Quoting what one does not know as fact themselves can lead to a problem down the road, especially if someone takes to heart what is posted and then finds out it has caused problems. Unfortunately this has happened. Being that this pup was taken too early and left alone at 6 weeks creates stress that to a layman is not clearly visible. Which is why most reputable breeders are against early removal from litter mates. In this case the breeder appeared more interest in the $'s and less in the health of the pup. Will a vet see this, no. They will be the first to admit unless they are in fact breeders themselves that it is difficult to see stress in some dogs and more so in pups since their outright demeanor is hard to judge again especially at this age. I have seen adult dogs that were taken early from their litter mates and can assure you that many times they just have not acclimated well. Good dogs yes, overly social, no. This skill is taught by the dam and litter mates not by humans. We teach a different socializing all together. In the case of this pup, too many issues, too young, no assurance it had all its boosters, demodex...commonly and more often caused by stress.
They need to see if in fact this pup is suffering from auto immune deficiency.
This will help alot with the vets treatment. Also will go a long way in addressing and resolve the mange issue.
But for the record, to start out a post stating I may not agree...do not bring me into something individually that I clearly did not state or imply. I told you that I felt addressing the diet was fine but this is not addressing the key issue of mange. It had to be addresses first to find out what is causing it. Otherwise all the diet changes in the world will never cure the dog of it. With every trip there is a starting point, in this case it is determining the cause then addressing the cures. Diet is just one of the remedies but not necessarily one of the cures.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Yes, I had already agreed with you regarding diet so why did your opening remark state "I know Yogi and other may disagree but it is my personal opinion that food is one of the mosdt powerful healing agents." This made no sense since I had already stated that yes, diet can help the immune system. But instead you take aim without confirming.
Will diet help the immune system, yes. Unfortunately though we are dealing with demodex mange which is the primary concern at this time. Demodex in all likelihood will not clear itself up with just diet unless we were talking about a mature dog instead of a puppy. Being the age of this pup at time it went home, begs to wonder why and where is the proof of the puppy shots it should have had which again could not have been administered (all 3) by age 8 weeks.
These puppy boosters bolster the pups immune system the same way the dams natural milk does which is why you wait til after it is no longer nursing otherwise it is redundant to give a booster for the same thing that the dams milk is providing. By implying that I may disagree contradicts your own remark in the last post of yours where you state I did agree. I agreed before this but at the same time explained that experience teaches you that first you need to deal with the disease than the prevention. A diet if in fact is causing the immune system harm which ingredients in dog food is no guarantee does, than deal with the real issue first than emphasize the follow up. Remember, the dog is not suffering from a lack of immune system issues since no test has been done to prove it but fact is the dog is suffering from Demodex. Therefore you deal with the fact not the assumption. Therefore, deal with the demodex issue by addressing the cures via meds than introduce diet change if necessary. Being again, this is still a puppy. Proper diet should have been addressed by the breeder and if the OP did not know, they should have inquired with the vet or someone who breeds and raises pups. Unfortunately, websites do not raise let alone breed puppies and in many cases authors of most website writings have never had hands on experience themselves but gathered it from numerous sources which always leads to issues of credibility. Quoting what one does not know as fact themselves can lead to a problem down the road, especially if someone takes to heart what is posted and then finds out it has caused problems. Unfortunately this has happened. Being that this pup was taken too early and left alone at 6 weeks creates stress that to a layman is not clearly visible. Which is why most reputable breeders are against early removal from litter mates. In this case the breeder appeared more interest in the $'s and less in the health of the pup. Will a vet see this, no. They will be the first to admit unless they are in fact breeders themselves that it is difficult to see stress in some dogs and more so in pups since their outright demeanor is hard to judge again especially at this age. I have seen adult dogs that were taken early from their litter mates and can assure you that many times they just have not acclimated well. Good dogs yes, overly social, no. This skill is taught by the dam and litter mates not by humans. We teach a different socializing all together. In the case of this pup, too many issues, too young, no assurance it had all its boosters, demodex...commonly and more often caused by stress.
They need to see if in fact this pup is suffering from auto immune deficiency.
This will help alot with the vets treatment. Also will go a long way in addressing and resolve the mange issue.
But for the record, to start out a post stating I may not agree...do not bring me into something individually that I clearly did not state or imply. I told you that I felt addressing the diet was fine but this is not addressing the key issue of mange. It had to be addresses first to find out what is causing it. Otherwise all the diet changes in the world will never cure the dog of it. With every trip there is a starting point, in this case it is determining the cause then addressing the cures. Diet is just one of the remedies but not necessarily one of the cures.

When I said Yogi and others may disagree I was referring to the overall importance of diet in general, not neccessarily in this particular case. I just meant to address some posters who are not as behind diet as others.

[mellyodieo]

I guess its shame on me I trusted the breeder based on her experience and recomendations of others....I have learned alot from your posts....I dont know when he had his boosters she just said they were up to date i have no info on it....I always thought 6 to 8 weeks was normal for a pup to leave its mother i guess i didnt do my homework well enough....I have tried to get in contact with her to ask about when he had his boosters and she wont speek with me....I talked with the vet he is going to do some testing....I was looking at some pics of when i first got him and now that i know the signs of demodex he had spots on his left frount leg when we got him....I have a female olde english bulldogge that is three I got her at 11 weeks I was a bit nieve in thinking all breeders had the dog as priority and not $.....How could I have gotten information on her kennel before I purchased the pup? I cant even find her kennel name on any of the paperwork.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by mellyodieo

I guess its shame on me I trusted the breeder based on her experience and recomendations of others....I have learned alot from your posts....I dont know when he had his boosters she just said they were up to date i have no info on it....I always thought 6 to 8 weeks was normal for a pup to leave its mother i guess i didnt do my homework well enough....I have tried to get in contact with her to ask about when he had his boosters and she wont speek with me....I talked with the vet he is going to do some testing....I was looking at some pics of when i first got him and now that i know the signs of demodex he had spots on his left frount leg when we got him....I have a female olde english bulldogge that is three I got her at 11 weeks I was a bit nieve in thinking all breeders had the dog as priority and not $.....How could I have gotten information on her kennel before I purchased the pup? I cant even find her kennel name on any of the paperwork.

If this is an AKC registered pup than in most cases the kennel is registered. Not always though. AKC does not require AKC breeders to register their kennels but most will. Locating a pup on the AKC site generally will ensure healthy pups. Unfortunately, it is a buyer be ware situation often. I am an AKC breeders but do not breed often enough to register my kennel. Primarily as I am set up as a rescue more so. I do list with AKC and have an account with them so my dogs and litters are monitored by the AKC. If you bought what you believe to be a purebred not AKC dog but registered with another registry, I would not have a clue as to what to look for. If in fact the pup is AKC, I would check with the American Kennel Club to see if you can alert them of the issues. They do have some enforcement procedures in place. You would need to research them. Good luck.
Let us know the results of the tests. Have you looked for the Mitaban for the pup? At his age I would hate to see him go through a dip if he does not have to.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by mellyodieo

I guess its shame on me I trusted the breeder based on her experience and recomendations of others....I have learned alot from your posts....I dont know when he had his boosters she just said they were up to date i have no info on it....I always thought 6 to 8 weeks was normal for a pup to leave its mother i guess i didnt do my homework well enough....I have tried to get in contact with her to ask about when he had his boosters and she wont speek with me....I talked with the vet he is going to do some testing....I was looking at some pics of when i first got him and now that i know the signs of demodex he had spots on his left frount leg when we got him....I have a female olde english bulldogge that is three I got her at 11 weeks I was a bit nieve in thinking all breeders had the dog as priority and not $.....How could I have gotten information on her kennel before I purchased the pup? I cant even find her kennel name on any of the paperwork.

I can't believer the breeder won't talk with you. What is wrong with him/her???

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by mellyodieo

i purchased an english bulldog at 8 weeks...shortly after getting him he had patches of hair missing and his eye was irritated so took him to the vet after a couple of visits he was diagnosed withcherry eye and demodex mange...he was treated and it returned he was treated and again it returned so we went to a different vet and was treated it cleared up for a week and returned he is now almost 8 month old and we have been dealing with this since he was 11 weeks old the vet says now that he is not getting better and has new spots developing it is probably an autoimune disease...the question i have is i paid 1500 for him i talked to the breader from the begining and she wont do anything to make us happy not taking the dog back,or refunding a portion of our money...Is this the norm for breeders? and what should i do if anything from here?

Is this demodex mange for sure or not!? Your vet is saying now that it is prob. an autoimune disease or does this mean it is both!? I know not much about all this but I am passing this on to you from an article in Woman's Day written by a Melinda Dodd. Will it help? I don't know but here it is---If your pet suddenly sheds a ton, or you see bald patches and raw skin, consult a vet. Stress, allergic dermatitis, low thyroid and Cushing's disease can all affect shed cycles.----Did your vet rule some of these out--esp. Cushing's disease and the low thyroid?

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

Is this demodex mange for sure or not!? Your vet is saying now that it is prob. an autoimune disease or does this mean it is both!? I know not much about all this but I am passing this on to you from an article in Woman's Day written by a Melinda Dodd. Will it help? I don't know but here it is---If your pet suddenly sheds a ton, or you see bald patches and raw skin, consult a vet. Stress, allergic dermatitis, low thyroid and Cushing's disease can all affect shed cycles.----Did your vet rule some of these out--esp. Cushing's disease and the low thyroid?

The autoimmune issue is most likely the cause of the mange if there is one because mange can be a result of a weakened immune system...

[mellyodieo]

he has demodex mange....he has had skin scrapes and such to verify that....the vet thinks he has an autoimune disease that is preventing his body from keeping the mites in check for a period of time....he cant control the mite count on his own for some reason he will take the meds and have a zero scrape and within 2 weeks the bald spots show up again and we have him rescraped and it again is the demodex...i am trying the mitoban now if this doesnt work im going to have to have him dipped....


and no the breeder will not answer my calls she says she isnt responsible for his issues and isnt going to help us out in any way...im going to report her to the AKC...he is registered AKC... the breeder has 4 dams and 1 male so im sure she has at least 1 litter a year if not more.

A friend of ours lives on a couple of acres....he would like to take him home with him and see if it would help not being confined in the city maybe it will boost his imune system...any opinoins on this....

[CorkyMax]

Just want to offer this quick 'thing'-- a copy of another post I did a while back. If your dog is on all those meds--You should prob. read this: [B]
I have commented in this forum before about yogurt--but it was 'human' yogurt. I recently asked a question of the vet on another dog forum who answers members questions about giving this to the dog and here is the 'copied' reply;

[COLOR="Sienna"Non-pasteurized yogurt in people supplies probiotic bacteria that is helpful to support normal flora. There are also enzymes but the probiotics are even better. Dogs unfortunately utilize a different bacteria for their normal flora so human probiotics are different from dog probiotics which are different that rabbit probiotics and cat probiotics. Dog probioitics are readily available in not only stores but also online. Why supplement them? I don't know that I really push these either for 'normal' dogs but I do recommend them for dogs that are on antibiotics or have diarrhea. Thus I recommend and prescribe probioitcs more commonly than I do enzyme supplements. By supplying 'good' bacteria, it helps the dogs rejuvenate the normal flora. For dogs that might have diarrhea or be exposed to 'bad bacteria' or antibiotics, being on a probiotic can help them.
][/COLOR]
A person gets a lot of 'different' answers to almost everything!!?? So I am adding this and you have to decide if it is the right way to go!---referring to the human versus the dog type yogurt--Prob. best to just get the probiotic supplement and then you don't have to worry about it--But prob. more expensive!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Todd

The autoimmune issue is most likely the cause of the mange if there is one because mange can be a result of a weakened immune system...

This is not true, Mange is the result of only 5 health issues as I prior noted and immune system is not one of them. But mange left untreated can cause the immune system to weaken like any other health issue affecting a person or animal.