[UnderDog]

There doesn't seem to be much on raw feeding around the forum so thought I would post this.....

As dogs ARE carnivourous (they do however have the ability to digest plant matter) it is only right we feed them they are supposed to - Animal flesh. There is alot of conflict over raw feeding however through many studies it has showed dogs that are fed raw are the healthiest.

What is "RMB" and "BARF"?
RMB stands for "Raw Meaty Bones" . The name is a bit of a giveaway as to what it is, but this diet consists of raw meat on the bones along with organs.
BARF stands for "Bones And Raw Foods" or "Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods". This is usually a diet containg bones, meat, organ and vegetable matter.

Here are some reasons you should feed raw:

Cost:
Raw feeding, believe it or not, is MUCH cheaper then most quality dog food brands such as Orijen. I currently have 27 dogs on a raw diet and the monthly food bill is, IMO, rediculously cheap at £33.87. My dogs eat a mix of poultry, rodents and rabbit. Its all about finding the right supplier! Talk to game keepers, butchers, hunters, pet shops and shop around super markets, game keepers are often happy to throw you a deer here or there as they dont have the room in the freezer, all you need to do is chop, bag and freeze the meat. You can buy packaged minced meats and meat chunks at pet shops. Butchers throw away things like turkey/chicken necks, chicken backs, ribs or cows/pigs, beef shin bones etc. Hunters, too, are usually happy to give you different cuts of meats and carcass. If you had the right suppliers you could even be feeding your dog/s for free!

Energy:
Dogs that are fed raw diets are known to have better energy levels then those fed on kibble and also to be happier about walkies!

Increased Lean Body Mass:
Dogs on a raw diet will loose unwanted wait and gain more lean body mass/muscle.


Oral health:
A dogs teeth are made to grind up bones, strip bones of meat and to grind up flesh. Chewing meats and grinding down bones keeps a dogs teeth strong, tartar free and keeps breath smelling fresh! As well as the fact the meat encourages healthier gums and can help with the pain of teething.

Easier digestion:
A Dogs digestion system was made to digest raw meat. Not dry kibble which can dry the insides of your dogs intenstines/stomach and cause blockage. Feeding a raw diet also increases firmness in stools and therefore helps to keep anal sac problems away - meaning no more taking your pampered pooch to the vet to get his or her anal sacs emptied!

Healthier ears:
Feeding raw boost's a dogs immune system releasing essential fatty acids and other ingredients to reduce inflammation!

Healthier skin/coat:
Dogs that are fed raw tend to have less/no skin problems such as inflammation and eczema. They also have lush, strong, silky fur and in long haired dogs this is a saint! I no longer bother brushing any of my long haired dogs (even the sheltie!) apart from if the dogs are tense (brushing calms them down) as their coats are so silky and strong they dont get matted or knots like they used to.


Some will fight that dogs can choke on splintered bones with is true, but how often is it we hear of dogs chokeing on kibble or getting kibble lodged in the back of their throats? I get it at least once a week! Finding the right foods for your dog can be difficult, and I wont try posting here about all the different foods as there is just way to many, if you have any questions dont hesitate to ask but please if its about feeding your dogs raw let me know if your dog has any health problems, what breed is s/he, what age etc.

Myths of raw feeding dogs:
"Your dog will become blood thirsty"
"Your dog will chew anything that has blood/chew peoples hands"
"Your dog will get food poisoning"
"Your dog will choke on the bones"
"Dogs have evolved to eat cooked meats/kibble"
"Dogs are omnivourous"
"Dogs live longer on a kibble diet"
"Wolves dont live long because of their diet"
"Raw diets are not balanced"
"Bacteria in meat is dangerous to dogs"
"Raw fed dogs get parasites"
"Small/Toy breeds shouldnt eat raw"
"Raw diets are inconvinient and hard to digest"

I could list many more!
I challenge each and every kibble feeder to find me a kibble better quality then raw food, and guess what, I always win! Lol!
Hope this helps some, and please, again, any questions, just ask! Or anything you wish me to put on this thread then tell me as it should hopefully make more people think twice before pouring a bowl of kibble!

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by UnderDog

There doesn't seem to be much on raw feeding around the forum so thought I would post this.....

As dogs ARE carnivourous (they do however have the ability to digest plant matter) it is only right we feed them they are supposed to - Animal flesh. There is alot of conflict over raw feeding however through many studies it has showed dogs that are fed raw are the healthiest.

What is "RMB" and "BARF"?
RMB stands for "Raw Meaty Bones" . The name is a bit of a giveaway as to what it is, but this diet consists of raw meat on the bones along with organs.
BARF stands for "Bones And Raw Foods" or "Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods". This is usually a diet containg bones, meat, organ and vegetable matter.

Here are some reasons you should feed raw:

Cost:
Raw feeding, believe it or not, is MUCH cheaper then most quality dog food brands such as Orijen. I currently have 27 dogs on a raw diet and the monthly food bill is, IMO, rediculously cheap at £33.87. My dogs eat a mix of poultry, rodents and rabbit. Its all about finding the right supplier! Talk to game keepers, butchers, hunters, pet shops and shop around super markets, game keepers are often happy to throw you a deer here or there as they dont have the room in the freezer, all you need to do is chop, bag and freeze the meat. You can buy packaged minced meats and meat chunks at pet shops. Butchers throw away things like turkey/chicken necks, chicken backs, ribs or cows/pigs, beef shin bones etc. Hunters, too, are usually happy to give you different cuts of meats and carcass. If you had the right suppliers you could even be feeding your dog/s for free!

Energy:
Dogs that are fed raw diets are known to have better energy levels then those fed on kibble and also to be happier about walkies!

Increased Lean Body Mass:
Dogs on a raw diet will loose unwanted wait and gain more lean body mass/muscle.


Oral health:
A dogs teeth are made to grind up bones, strip bones of meat and to grind up flesh. Chewing meats and grinding down bones keeps a dogs teeth strong, tartar free and keeps breath smelling fresh! As well as the fact the meat encourages healthier gums and can help with the pain of teething.

Easier digestion:
A Dogs digestion system was made to digest raw meat. Not dry kibble which can dry the insides of your dogs intenstines/stomach and cause blockage. Feeding a raw diet also increases firmness in stools and therefore helps to keep anal sac problems away - meaning no more taking your pampered pooch to the vet to get his or her anal sacs emptied!

Healthier ears:
Feeding raw boost's a dogs immune system releasing essential fatty acids and other ingredients to reduce inflammation!

Healthier skin/coat:
Dogs that are fed raw tend to have less/no skin problems such as inflammation and eczema. They also have lush, strong, silky fur and in long haired dogs this is a saint! I no longer bother brushing any of my long haired dogs (even the sheltie!) apart from if the dogs are tense (brushing calms them down) as their coats are so silky and strong they dont get matted or knots like they used to.


Some will fight that dogs can choke on splintered bones with is true, but how often is it we hear of dogs chokeing on kibble or getting kibble lodged in the back of their throats? I get it at least once a week! Finding the right foods for your dog can be difficult, and I wont try posting here about all the different foods as there is just way to many, if you have any questions dont hesitate to ask but please if its about feeding your dogs raw let me know if your dog has any health problems, what breed is s/he, what age etc.

Myths of raw feeding dogs:
"Your dog will become blood thirsty"
"Your dog will chew anything that has blood/chew peoples hands"
"Your dog will get food poisoning"
"Your dog will choke on the bones"
"Dogs have evolved to eat cooked meats/kibble"
"Dogs are omnivourous"
"Dogs live longer on a kibble diet"
"Wolves dont live long because of their diet"
"Raw diets are not balanced"
"Bacteria in meat is dangerous to dogs"
"Raw fed dogs get parasites"
"Small/Toy breeds shouldnt eat raw"
"Raw diets are inconvinient and hard to digest"

I could list many more!
I challenge each and every kibble feeder to find me a kibble better quality then raw food, and guess what, I always win! Lol!
Hope this helps some, and please, again, any questions, just ask! Or anything you wish me to put on this thread then tell me as it should hopefully make more people think twice before pouring a bowl of kibble!

Thank you! Thank you! I am so happy to have someone else 'jump in here' on this subject! I was beginning to think that this could become a losing battle but you just brought in reinforcements and you said it all so well. I guess I have a crusade going here--I'm beginning to feel a little battle-worn though and maybe you were just in the nick of time. THANKS MUCH!!

[Piti Longstalking]

Originally Posted by UnderDog

As dogs ARE carnivourous (they do however have the ability to digest plant matter) it is only right we feed them they are supposed to - Animal flesh.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but no, dogs do not have ingredient requirements, they have nutrient requirements. "Animal flesh" is not fundamentally necessary in fulfilling the dog's nutrient requirement.

There is alot of conflict over raw feeding however through many studies it has showed dogs that are fed raw are the healthiest.

Where are these studies. To my knowledge these studies exist only in anecdotes.

Cost:[/B]
Raw feeding, believe it or not, is MUCH cheaper then most quality dog food brands such as Orijen. I currently have 27 dogs on a raw diet and the monthly food bill is, IMO, rediculously cheap at £33.87. My dogs eat a mix of poultry, rodents and rabbit. Its all about finding the right supplier! Talk to game keepers, butchers, hunters, pet shops and shop around super markets, game keepers are often happy to throw you a deer here or there as they dont have the room in the freezer, all you need to do is chop, bag and freeze the meat. You can buy packaged minced meats and meat chunks at pet shops. Butchers throw away things like turkey/chicken necks, chicken backs, ribs or cows/pigs, beef shin bones etc. Hunters, too, are usually happy to give you different cuts of meats and carcass. If you had the right suppliers you could even be feeding your dog/s for free!

I believe most of this can be true, however, the value in feeding raw can be compromised by the cost of owning a secondary freezer to store the food. Not to mention all the cleaning supplies that would be necessary to stay sanitary.

Energy:
Dogs that are fed raw diets are known to have better energy levels then those fed on kibble and also to be happier about walkies!

Increased Lean Body Mass:
Dogs on a raw diet will loose unwanted wait and gain more lean body mass/muscle.

I'd like to see some unbiased evidence of this. I've seen some outstanding dogs fed a "garbage" kibble diet, so I'm not sure how this information is relevant if the dog's diet provides the nutrients he needs. The biggest problem with kibble diets is that dogs are overfed. Probably 90% of all kibble diet problems could be alleviated by feeding a smaller portion.

Oral health:
A dogs teeth are made to grind up bones, strip bones of meat and to grind up flesh. Chewing meats and grinding down bones keeps a dogs teeth strong, tartar free and keeps breath smelling fresh! As well as the fact the meat encourages healthier gums and can help with the pain of teething.

This is dependent on the dog. There are documented cases of dogs who have chewed raw bones into chunks too big for their digestive system and had to have them medically removed to prevent them from dying. Chewing is an activity that every dog should enjoy, raw bones are not necessary for them to enjoy this activity or realize the benefits.

Easier digestion:
A Dogs digestion system was made to digest raw meat. Not dry kibble which can dry the insides of your dogs intenstines/stomach and cause blockage. Feeding a raw diet also increases firmness in stools and therefore helps to keep anal sac problems away - meaning no more taking your pampered pooch to the vet to get his or her anal sacs emptied!

Kibble drys intestines and causes blockage? Really? Never heard that one. Must be a new unproven tact coming from the raw fed circle. If this were true I'm sure our regulatory agencies would issue a warning like they have raw feeding, but I have not seen this warning.

Healthier ears:
Feeding raw boost's a dogs immune system releasing essential fatty acids and other ingredients to reduce inflammation!

Again, I'd like to see the studies suggesting this. I don't think a study has been done suggesting this with any diet.

Healthier skin/coat:
Dogs that are fed raw tend to have less/no skin problems such as inflammation and eczema. They also have lush, strong, silky fur and in long haired dogs this is a saint! I no longer bother brushing any of my long haired dogs (even the sheltie!) apart from if the dogs are tense (brushing calms them down) as their coats are so silky and strong they dont get matted or knots like they used to.

This is usually a result of the dog not getting enough fatty acids in his original diet, not necessarily a benefit to feeding raw.

Some will fight that dogs can choke on splintered bones with is true, but how often is it we hear of dogs chokeing on kibble or getting kibble lodged in the back of their throats?

Never heard of kibble being a choking hazard. I've been working in a 2,000 dog shelter for over 10 years, and all our dogs are all fed kibble, not a one has ever had kibble caught in his throat of choked on kibble. My vet has plenty of photos, however, or bones dogs have chewed and had surgically removed. If we're weighing the benefits to feeding raw over kibble, choking hazards weigh heavily against raw.

"Your dog will get food poisoning"

This is not a myth. My vet has documented cases of patience dogs who have become ill from eating raw meat. Dogs are not exceptions to becoming ill from pathogens.

"Your dog will choke on the bones"

You just said this was true. Either it is true or it is not. This too is not a myth. Dogs do choke on bones, both cooked and raw.

"Dogs have evolved to eat cooked meats/kibble"

I'd say this is not a myth either. Dogs being domesticated have a history of living with man, man eats cooked food, it only takes a bit of logic to see that a dog can evolve to live off cooked food served by man, and in fact many do.

"Dogs are omnivourous"

This is really a rhetorical argument. Dogs certainly aren't obligate carnivores like a cat, you've already admitted they can eat and digest plant matter, so it would be better to say they are less carnivorous than a cat, but not as omnivorous as a koala. Calling a dog an omnivore or a carnivore really says nothing about his nutrient requirements.

"Bacteria in meat is dangerous to dogs"
"Raw fed dogs get parasites"

This isn't a myth, this is a fact. Again, raw fed dogs are not exceptions to the rule regarding bacteria and pathogens. If the meat is tainted (i.e at high levels than he can tolerate), your dog is at risk (as small as it may be). Interestingly though, cooking the meat, even just on the surface, reduces the risk drastically. Bacteria and parasites do not survive well in high heat environments.

I challenge each and every kibble feeder to find me a kibble better quality then raw food, and guess what, I always win! Lol!

This is the attitude that helps no one. When we're talking about what's best for our dogs, how "right" you think you are about your dog's diet should never enter this discussion. There is no one diet appropriate for all dogs. Kibble feeders should not be belittled by you or how perfect you think your concept of feeding is. I wish discussions with raw feeders could be had without this need to one-up kibble feeders. Very irritating.

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by Piti Longstalking

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but no, dogs do not have ingredient requirements, they have nutrient requirements. "Animal flesh" is not fundamentally necessary in fulfilling the dog's nutrient requirement.


Where are these studies. To my knowledge these studies exist only in anecdotes.


I believe most of this can be true, however, the value in feeding raw can be compromised by the cost of owning a secondary freezer to store the food. Not to mention all the cleaning supplies that would be necessary to stay sanitary.


I'd like to see some unbiased evidence of this. I've seen some outstanding dogs fed a "garbage" kibble diet, so I'm not sure how this information is relevant if the dog's diet provides the nutrients he needs. The biggest problem with kibble diets is that dogs are overfed. Probably 90% of all kibble diet problems could be alleviated by feeding a smaller portion.


This is dependent on the dog. There are documented cases of dogs who have chewed raw bones into chunks too big for their digestive system and had to have them medically removed to prevent them from dying. Chewing is an activity that every dog should enjoy, raw bones are not necessary for them to enjoy this activity or realize the benefits.


Kibble drys intestines and causes blockage? Really? Never heard that one. Must be a new unproven tact coming from the raw fed circle. If this were true I'm sure our regulatory agencies would issue a warning like they have raw feeding, but I have not seen this warning.


Again, I'd like to see the studies suggesting this. I don't think a study has been done suggesting this with any diet.


This is usually a result of the dog not getting enough fatty acids in his original diet, not necessarily a benefit to feeding raw.


Never heard of kibble being a choking hazard. I've been working in a 2,000 dog shelter for over 10 years, and all our dogs are all fed kibble, not a one has ever had kibble caught in his throat of choked on kibble. My vet has plenty of photos, however, or bones dogs have chewed and had surgically removed. If we're weighing the benefits to feeding raw over kibble, choking hazards weigh heavily against raw.


This is not a myth. My vet has documented cases of patience dogs who have become ill from eating raw meat. Dogs are not exceptions to becoming ill from pathogens.


You just said this was true. Either it is true or it is not. This too is not a myth. Dogs do choke on bones, both cooked and raw.


I'd say this is not a myth either. Dogs being domesticated have a history of living with man, man eats cooked food, it only takes a bit of logic to see that a dog can evolve to live off cooked food served by man, and in fact many do.


This is really a rhetorical argument. Dogs certainly aren't obligate carnivores like a cat, you've already admitted they can eat and digest plant matter, so it would be better to say they are less carnivorous than a cat, but not as omnivorous as a koala. Calling a dog an omnivore or a carnivore really says nothing about his nutrient requirements.


This isn't a myth, this is a fact. Again, raw fed dogs are not exceptions to the rule regarding bacteria and pathogens. If the meat is tainted (i.e at high levels than he can tolerate), your dog is at risk (as small as it may be). Interestingly though, cooking the meat, even just on the surface, reduces the risk drastically. Bacteria and parasites do not survive well in high heat environments.


This is the attitude that helps no one. When we're talking about what's best for our dogs, how "right" you think you are about your dog's diet should never enter this discussion. There is no one diet appropriate for all dogs. Kibble feeders should not be belittled by you or how perfect you think your concept of feeding is. I wish discussions with raw feeders could be had without this need to one-up kibble feeders. Very irritating.

I can't take anymore tonight but just a quick, short and to the point reply---If you want answers to all your questions on raw feeding---PLEASE go check out the many web addresses you can click on in my other postings in here. And I just spent over an hour trying to explain things to another member here--please check it out--hopefully you will get the message as to why raw feeding w/the enzymes is the only way as your dog has to have these enzymes and they are not in cooked food--cooking destroys them!

[Piti Longstalking]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

these enzymes and they are not in cooked food--cooking destroys them!

You've been misinformed. Enzymes contained in food are of no importance to the dog. The only enzymes that are important to the dog are the ones excreted in his intestines and stomach. These are the enzymes responsible for digestion, and they take place in the dog's body, not in his food. Destruction of enzymes in the dog's food does not make a difference, not one iota. Healthy dogs produce the enzymes they need, and in excess. In fact, this is often the reason why supplementation is not recommended for dogs. So touting cooking food destroys enzymes is really a non-argument, just more raw propaganda.

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by Piti Longstalking

You've been misinformed. Enzymes contained in food are of no importance to the dog. The only enzymes that are important to the dog are the ones excreted in his intestines and stomach. These are the enzymes responsible for digestion, and they take place in the dog's body, not in his food. Destruction of enzymes in the dog's food does not make a difference, not one iota. Healthy dogs produce the enzymes they need, and in excess. In fact, this is often the reason why supplementation is not recommended for dogs. So touting cooking food destroys enzymes is really a non-argument, just more raw propaganda.

I beg to differ--have you checked out the sites I posted here--if not I'm not going to go into any more detail---and I also would like to see proof of what you are saying--you see I am open-minded, I'll check out anything you have to offer!!

[Piti Longstalking]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

I beg to differ

It's you're prerogative to be misinformed.

have you checked out the sites I posted here--if not I'm not going to go into any more detail

Unless they are authored by you it's not likely to end up on my reading list. Even still, you're just some random person on the internet with an opinion. I've heard all the raw feeding arguments, I've done all my own research, and I trust those who are "open-minded" will find my arguments critical, yes, but objective.

I also would like to see proof of what you are saying--you see I am open-minded, I'll check out anything you have to offer!!

See, if you roll your eyes I'm likely to just ignore you for another raw propagandist. Re: enzymes? Try Martin, A.N. (2001). Protect Your Pet More Shocking Facts. Troutdale: NewSage Press. BTW, raw feeders like to use this source for bashing kibble feeders, so do what you will with it.

[UnderDog]

I really dont have the time right now to answer all your post but I would just like to say I NEVER try to one-up a kibble feeder, I don't "think" I am "right" at all. Also about the cost thing - I run another freezer because I have the dogs aswell as hawks, cats and ferrets who are obviously fed raw, unless/until you have to be buying upwards of 5kg of meats per week there is no reason to get another freezer. Over the myth of bones argument - notice in that Myth it says "Your dog WILL choke on the bones" . The omnivorous argument, dogs have not evolved to eat cooked meats at all and it can in fact do more harm then good. Just because dogs are served by man does NOT mean they are ok/should eat cooked meat.

Nice sharing of thoughts...
I learned a lot from the post above...
Thanks...

[Piti Longstalking]

Originally Posted by UnderDog

The omnivorous argument, dogs have not evolved to eat cooked meats at all and it can in fact do more harm then good. Just because dogs are served by man does NOT mean they are ok/should eat cooked meat.

I don't argue for any diet, not cooked meat, not raw, not kibble. So do not read that I am advocating cooked meat, although it is a fact cooked (rare) meat poses less risk than raw.

Again, as far as the omnivore/carnivore argument is concerned, it is a rhetorical argument. It means nothing to the dog's nutrient requirements or how the dog's nutrients can be had. You could, if it were practical, give a dog all his nutrients through an IV, and he would live a long and healthy life. Just because a dog historically evolved to eat vermin, does not tell us what he can eat or digest. The label carnivore/omnivore is not practically useful.

Now I'd like to see your reference that cooked meat can do more harm than raw. I would avoid referencing Pottenger's study because I'll blow that one apart. The facts are you won't find any definitive study on your claim because it doesn't exist. This is a myth raw feeders reify, not exactly the truth.

I'm all for raw feeders discussing their diets, I'm not for raw feeders stating untruths as fact.

One thing I have learned over the last few years as as raw vegan--there is a lot of misinformation and pseudo-science being spread around in the name of proselytizing newcomers into the movement. This was a major force in sending me back to college -- not one of the uncertified colleges that is part of the Mis-information superhighway but a reputable college where truth prevails--at least as far as truth is known. That's the other thing--so much is NOT known at least when it comes to human nutrition. Animal nutrition has been studied longer, btw.

Enzymes. The much touted "raw foods contain enzymes" theory. What are enzymes? Enzymes are proteins. Enzymes help biochemical reactions occur more efficiently than they would without the enzymes present. Proteins are denatured by amongst other things: heat and acid (generally speaking but some are not denatured by acid). Is enzymes the reason raw food diets have the health benefits that scientific studies are finding that they have? Unlikely. Our bodies have no problem producing the necessary enzymes (unless we have a genetic condition affecting our ability to produce a particular enzyme--lactase is a common example. Lactase is the enzyme that helps the digestion of lactose.) The enzyme hypothesis has been touted since the early 1900's and highly promoted by Ann Wigmore and her "off-spring".

So, if it isn't enzymes, what is it? I have my theory that has basis in sound current research -- probiotics. Research being done at such locations as Michigan University are looking at the power of probiotics.

So, what does any of that have to do with this current discussion?

1. There will always be plenty of websites touting pseudo-science in favor or disfavor of any position and the more extreme the position the more likely they are based on pseudo-science---and the more websites there will be touting the position.
2. Science lags terribly in terms of "proving" what we may know or think we know from anecdotal experiences.
3. There are many approaches to health for us and our animals. The key is to use the best info available and then realize that nutrition is as much alchemy as science--so much is yet to be known.
4. Real food -- whether cooked or raw -- is better than "food like substances" (be it twinkies for humans or Beggin' Strips for dogs). Real food contains a range of nutrients including those which have yet to be identified and named (we call those phytochemicals). Real food is always better than an assortment of nutrient supplements as is common in many commerical dogfoods...and human processed foods. Cooked foods may denature some nutrients but will make others more bioavailable--go figure.
5. We are all trying to do the best we can for our pets at whatever point we are at--be it premium kibble, cooked homemade, or raw. Each "style" has it's pluses and minuses.
6. Unless you want to treat your dog like a wolf (don't feed everyday...make it hunt for hours for it's food...etc.) don't use the "dogs are wolves" argument.

Just my thoughts. :smile:

[UnderDog]

Originally Posted by Piti Longstalking

I don't argue for any diet, not cooked meat, not raw, not kibble. So do not read that I am advocating cooked meat, although it is a fact cooked (rare) meat poses less risk than raw

The "argument" thing was just a term, I wasnt saying you were arguing.

6. Unless you want to treat your dog like a wolf (don't feed everyday...make it hunt for hours for it's food...etc.) don't use the "dogs are wolves" argument.

Dogs ARE part wolf, whether you like it or not. Yes, I do treat my dog like they are wolves if that is how you put it. Each and everydog I own is taken hunting regularily and they work together to "catch dinner". I let them off leash and send them out to the field, the pointers find, brittanys or terriers bolt, then one or two dogs will try to catch the animal. Once it is caught I will dispatch it and if it is rabbit each dog will get a piece of it, even the chihuahuas chase the rabbit for dear life (granted, they hardly catch anything lol), if it is rat/mice or similar I will trade a piece of freeze dried meat. We can be out from sun up to sun down on farms clearing the land for the farmers. I also have been known to fast the dogs every now and again.

Originally Posted by UnderDog

Dogs ARE part wolf, whether you like it or not. Yes, I do treat my dog like they are wolves if that is how you put it. Each and everydog I own is taken hunting regularily and they work together to "catch dinner". I let them off leash and send them out to the field, the pointers find, brittanys or terriers bolt, then one or two dogs will try to catch the animal. Once it is caught I will dispatch it and if it is rabbit each dog will get a piece of it, even the chihuahuas chase the rabbit for dear life (granted, they hardly catch anything lol), if it is rat/mice or similar I will trade a piece of freeze dried meat. We can be out from sun up to sun down on farms clearing the land for the farmers. I also have been known to fast the dogs every now and again.

You really should tone it down just a tad and not automatically get defensive. A discussion is far more beneficial and educational.

Not all dogs decend from wolves, my friend. Australian Cattle Dogs descend from dingos. Other breeds from other canids. What is more certain is that they descend from canids that began scavenging around man's living areas rather than hunting.

That you do take your dogs hunting is just find and dandy. I can't do that. Most people can't or won't. Frankly, that you fast your dogs "occasionally" hardly meets the standard. Wolves and wild canids fast more often than they eat. They also eat the kill fresh off the hoof or paw and while your dogs may get their meat that way, most persons feeding a raw meat diet to their dog are serving them meat that has come from a commercial slaughterhouse and is far from fresh off the hoof or paw. There is a big difference in the bacterial load between wild hunted/eaten immediately and slaughterhouse kills and dressed.

saw your post , and yes it works for my boxer . we use raw hamberger
, mixed wit natural grans and human grade dried veggies . He's almost 6yrs old and we tried most all premium dog foods before , but he developed allergies on his skin . since we changed to the Sojo,s raw diet he has not had a problem . Actually , he has a better coat , more energy, and very healthy .
good luck with your dog .

Just an observation: This debate has taken the same heated tone as the arguments between the Born-Again Christians and the Mormons. Was the purpose in starting this thread really to debate, to "win" an argument, or was it intended merely to offer those curious about investigating an alternative diet for their pets some information, so they can choose what best suits them and their dogs? I'm all for sharing "what I've found to work best for me and my pets" but boldly stating, "this is the only right way to go, and I win all other arguments," is, in my opinion, bad form. It certainly isn't the way to "win friends and influence people." (Sorry, Nattie-- I know I'm not a mod, but this needed to be said) Let's try to keep things friendly, people.

I also in 20 years as a "kibble feeding" dog owner, 12 years as a groomer as well as working at a few kennels (that all fed kibble) have NEVER heard of a dog choking on kibble. I do however know a "raw fed" dog who died from aspirating on a chicken neck.

Okay, so now I am really confused on what to feed my puppy! If I wanted to give her a little raw meat every once in awhile what should I give her. What is the safest. Not that I will be feeding her only raw.

Originally Posted by makahana

Okay, so now I am really confused on what to feed my puppy! If I wanted to give her a little raw meat every once in awhile what should I give her. What is the safest. Not that I will be feeding her only raw.

With puppies especially, I'd be very careful about raw meat. If you want to do something other than kibble, you need to work with a canine nutritionist to formulate the appropriate diet in terms of calorie as well as macro- and micro-nutrient. (Macro = carb/protein/fat; micro = vitamins, minerals, fatty acids).

Recommendation: The Possible Canine

Originally Posted by UnderDog

There doesn't seem to be much on raw feeding around the forum so thought I would post this.....

As dogs ARE carnivourous (they do however have the ability to digest plant matter) it is only right we feed them they are supposed to - Animal flesh. There is alot of conflict over raw feeding however through many studies it has showed dogs that are fed raw are the healthiest.

What is "RMB" and "BARF"?
RMB stands for "Raw Meaty Bones" . The name is a bit of a giveaway as to what it is, but this diet consists of raw meat on the bones along with organs.
BARF stands for "Bones And Raw Foods" or "Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods". This is usually a diet containg bones, meat, organ and vegetable matter.

Here are some reasons you should feed raw:

Cost:
Raw feeding, believe it or not, is MUCH cheaper then most quality dog food brands such as Orijen. I currently have 27 dogs on a raw diet and the monthly food bill is, IMO, rediculously cheap at £33.87. My dogs eat a mix of poultry, rodents and rabbit. Its all about finding the right supplier! Talk to game keepers, butchers, hunters, pet shops and shop around super markets, game keepers are often happy to throw you a deer here or there as they dont have the room in the freezer, all you need to do is chop, bag and freeze the meat. You can buy packaged minced meats and meat chunks at pet shops. Butchers throw away things like turkey/chicken necks, chicken backs, ribs or cows/pigs, beef shin bones etc. Hunters, too, are usually happy to give you different cuts of meats and carcass. If you had the right suppliers you could even be feeding your dog/s for free!

Energy:
Dogs that are fed raw diets are known to have better energy levels then those fed on kibble and also to be happier about walkies!

Increased Lean Body Mass:
Dogs on a raw diet will loose unwanted wait and gain more lean body mass/muscle.


Oral health:
A dogs teeth are made to grind up bones, strip bones of meat and to grind up flesh. Chewing meats and grinding down bones keeps a dogs teeth strong, tartar free and keeps breath smelling fresh! As well as the fact the meat encourages healthier gums and can help with the pain of teething.

Easier digestion:
A Dogs digestion system was made to digest raw meat. Not dry kibble which can dry the insides of your dogs intenstines/stomach and cause blockage. Feeding a raw diet also increases firmness in stools and therefore helps to keep anal sac problems away - meaning no more taking your pampered pooch to the vet to get his or her anal sacs emptied!

Healthier ears:
Feeding raw boost's a dogs immune system releasing essential fatty acids and other ingredients to reduce inflammation!

Healthier skin/coat:
Dogs that are fed raw tend to have less/no skin problems such as inflammation and eczema. They also have lush, strong, silky fur and in long haired dogs this is a saint! I no longer bother brushing any of my long haired dogs (even the sheltie!) apart from if the dogs are tense (brushing calms them down) as their coats are so silky and strong they dont get matted or knots like they used to.


Some will fight that dogs can choke on splintered bones with is true, but how often is it we hear of dogs chokeing on kibble or getting kibble lodged in the back of their throats? I get it at least once a week! Finding the right foods for your dog can be difficult, and I wont try posting here about all the different foods as there is just way to many, if you have any questions dont hesitate to ask but please if its about feeding your dogs raw let me know if your dog has any health problems, what breed is s/he, what age etc.

Myths of raw feeding dogs:
"Your dog will become blood thirsty"
"Your dog will chew anything that has blood/chew peoples hands"
"Your dog will get food poisoning"
"Your dog will choke on the bones"
"Dogs have evolved to eat cooked meats/kibble"
"Dogs are omnivourous"
"Dogs live longer on a kibble diet"
"Wolves dont live long because of their diet"
"Raw diets are not balanced"
"Bacteria in meat is dangerous to dogs"
"Raw fed dogs get parasites"
"Small/Toy breeds shouldnt eat raw"
"Raw diets are inconvinient and hard to digest"

I could list many more!
I challenge each and every kibble feeder to find me a kibble better quality then raw food, and guess what, I always win! Lol!
Hope this helps some, and please, again, any questions, just ask! Or anything you wish me to put on this thread then tell me as it should hopefully make more people think twice before pouring a bowl of kibble!

I have always wondered myself why we feed our dogs grain. Mine don't even like it. I have a hard time finding food mine will eat. The first ingrediant listed oon a bag of food is the one that is the most of. If it is corn then the food has more corn .I always look for meat as a first ingredient.

[lil mutt]

this thread will surely get a lot of attention...

but discussion is good specially when we can change ideas about the topic...

i sometime fed my pets raw..