[puppylove2009]

What do you do if you feel your dogs are being overvaccinated?

How do you know what vaccines are necissary every time?

I know the law here for Rabies is that a rabies vaccine is required once every 12 months. (Which is too much where we are moving its every 3 years)

Bordetella vaccine is required by the practice (if you want your dog to go there you get the bordetella

It used to be every year but now they want us to do it every 6 months.

(Our dogs don't go to doggy daycare and aren't boarded.)

How do we figure out what shots are needed and what ones are just to rake up the vet bill?
__________________________--

Also our dog is being treated for tummy issues and they keep pushing that Hills I/D junk for us to buy....the first time we didn't even know we got that until we got home (aren't they supposed to tell you)

They are always trying to push Science diet

Well they vet knows he is allergic to corn and that is a corn based food. Yet they are still pushing it

Last time he was being treated for tummy issues I told them no he doesn't like it, and I don't care for that company....there food lacks in nutrition and I told them what we were feeding.....not a surprise that they didn't know why it was better...much less hadn't heard of it (California Naturals)

How do you deal with situations like that?


I mean I wasn't going to give him a food that would hurt him

I say change vets... my vet will only do what I want her to do, she does not push ANYTHING (not lyme vaccines, food, etc.) your other option is to find a holistic or natural vet who will work with you. Remember vaccine and rx food companies pay vets to push their products so change vets and get the correct care you know your dog needs.

[puppylove2009]

the thing is I don't really know what vaccines are necissary every year and what ones aren't.

I just know the rabies is definately over done but we can't do anything about that one because its a state law to have it done every year

[CorkyMax]

No vac. should have to be done every 6 mon!! The only vac. you are forced to get is RABIES! And I'm glad you are moving to a state where you only have to get it every three years-----and even that is too often! Any other shot is up to you. I shouldn't even be posting right now--I am so mad at all the greedy, ignorant-uncaring people there are in this world. I'd like to shove the commercial dog food down the throats of the greedy dog food companies and the vets selling it. (And they shouldn't be selling it in the 1st place)---
give some of the 'deadly' shots and meds. to the greedy people that are giving and prescribing them. I'm sick of feeling helpless to really be able to stop all the 'stupid greedy things' that are happening to animals. Sorry--this of course is not directed at you -Puppylove. But I hope you do get another vet because the one you have now sounds like a very greedy one and doesn't care about your dog---or/and is just plain ignorant!

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by puppylove2009

the thing is I don't really know what vaccines are necissary every year and what ones aren't.

I just know the rabies is definately over done but we can't do anything about that one because its a state law to have it done every year

I was just reading this book I got from the library and there is a lot of info I know you would want to see. I have to take this back tomorrow but am going to copy some of the pages----the only prob. w/trying to give you all this info is that it is 20 pgs. long (and I'm a 1-fingered typer). When do you have to worry about getting shots next time?? It also tells about 'Dangers of Commercial Pet Foods' I am hoping you can get this book through your library---if they don't have it, they can get on the computer and look up which library does have it--Just call them and give name and author of book--They can prob check for it while you are still on phone--otherwise just give them your phone # and they can call you back. Here, this is a free service where a traveling library brings the book to your library and they then should notify you when it comes in and if you don't hear frm them--just keep calling and ask if it has come in yet! Name of book: Protect Your Pet (More Shocking Facts) by Ann N. Martin (copyright 2001)----very informative book!
Give me some feedback on this when you read this post, okay?

[puppylove2009]

Thank you I will do that

Its just NOT that simple........although I agree 100% with the over vaccinating etc- I am caught in a catch 22- there are NO nearby holistic vets (OOH excuse me I cant use Holistic) homeopathic vets and the vet I have I am ok with. If my dog has to go in for a dental and is in need of a shot he agreed to a 3 yr shot (booster) vs his mandatory 1 year........and rabies I have no say over. I am going to see if he will agree to titers BUT they are not always accurate.
I hate that I am forced to compromise my beliefs- I can also see his point that my dog is in HIS facility and all dogs need to be vaccinated to be fair to the people that may have never vaccinated their dog.

But no vet can force you to do boosters they are not the law but they can refuse to give you service and everyone I tried to call had the same policy- ITS JUST SICK!!!!!!

[Kris L. Christine]

Originally Posted by puppylove2009

I just know the rabies is definately over done but we can't do anything about that one because its a state law to have it done every year

Puppylove2009,

What state do you live in?

[Kris L. Christine]

There is much confusion in the general public about the duration of immunity of canine vaccines. Below is a copy of my testimony and model disclosure submitted to Maine's Agriculture Committee in support of LD 429, the nation's first pet vaccine disclosure legislation, which was introduced on my behalf by Representative Peter Rines of Wiscasset. Anyone who wishes to have copies of the attachments referenced below, please e-mail me at ledgespring@lincoln.midcoast.com.

PERMISSION GRANTED TO CROSS-POST THIS MESSAGE.

February 27, 2005

TO: The Agriculture, Conservation and Forest Committee

RE: LD 429, An Act to Require Veterinarians to Provide Vaccine Disclosure Forms

My name is Kris Christine and I live with my family in Maine. Before I begin my testimony, I’d like to advise the committee that one of the world’s leading veterinary research scientists, Dr. W. Jean Dodds, wanted to be here today to testify in support of LD429, but could not do so because of prior commitments. With her permission, in the attachments to my testimony, I have included her letter to Representative Peter Rines dated February 17, 2005 (Attachment 5) resolutely endorsing this first-in-the-nation veterinary vaccine disclosure legislation.

I am here today to respectfully urge this committee to recommend passage of LD429 – An Act to Require Veterinarians to Provide Vaccine Disclosure Forms because pet owners need the scientifically proven durations of immunity (how long vaccines are effective for) in order to make informed medical choices for their animals.

Many Maine veterinarians have failed to inform clients that most core veterinary vaccines protect for seven or more years, and pet owners, unaware that their animals don’t need booster vaccinations more often, have unwittingly given their companions useless booster shots – taking an unnecessary toll on their finances and animals’ health. The human equivalent would be physicians vaccinating patients against tetanus once every year, two years, or three years and not disclosing that the vaccines are known to be protective for 10 years.

For years veterinarians have sent pet owners annual, biennial and triennial reminders for redundant booster shots and justified it with vaccine manufacturers’ labeled recommendations. According to the American Veterinary Medical Association’s (AVMA) Principles of Vaccination (Attachment 6), “..revaccination frequency recommendations found on many vaccine labels is based on historical precedent, not on scientific data … [and] does not resolve the question about average or maximum duration of immunity [Page 2] and..may fail to adequately inform practitioners about optimal use of the product…[Page 4] .” As the Colorado State University Veterinary Teaching Hospital states it: “…booster vaccine recommendations for vaccines other than rabies virus have been determined arbitrarily by manufacturers.”

Dr. Ronald Schultz, Chairman of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine, is at the forefront of vaccine research and is one of the world’s leading authorities on veterinary vaccines. His challenge study results form the scientific base of the American Animal Hospital Association’s (AAHA) 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines, Recommendations, and Supporting Literature (Attachment 7). These studies are based on science – they are not arbitrary. The public, however, cannot access this data. The American Animal Hospital Association only makes this report available to veterinarians, not private citizens, and Maine’s pet owners are unaware that the AAHA Guidelines state on Page 18 that: “We now know that booster injections are of no value in dogs already immune, and immunity from distemper infection and vaccination lasts for a minimum of 7 years based on challenge studies and up to 15 years (a lifetime) based on antibody titer.” They further state that hepatitis and parvovirus vaccines have been proven to protect for a minimum of 7 years by challenge and up to 9 and 10 years based on antibody count. So, unless the Legislature passes LD429 requiring veterinarians to provide vaccine disclosure forms, dog owners who receive an annual, biennial, or triennial reminders for booster shots will not know that nationally-accepted scientific studies have demonstrated that animals are protected a minimum of 7 years after vaccination with the distemper, parvovirus, and adenovirus-2 vaccines (see Page 12 AAHA 2003 Guidelines attached, and Table 1, Pages 3 and 4).

"My own pets are vaccinated once or twice as pups and kittens, then never again except for rabies,” Wall Street Journal reporter Rhonda L. Rundle quoted Dr. Ronald Schultz in a July 31, 2002 article entitled Annual Pet Vaccinations may be Unnecessary, Fatal (Attachment 2). Dr. Schultz knows something the pet-owning public doesn’t – he knows there’s no benefit in overvaccinating animals because immunity is not enhanced, but the risk of harmful adverse reactions is increased. He also knows that most core veterinary vaccines are protective for at least seven years, if not for the lifetime of the animal.

The first entry under Appendix 2 of the AAHA Guidelines (Attachment 7) “Important Vaccination ‘Do’s and Don’ts” is “Do Not Vaccinate Needlessly – Don’t revaccinate more often than is needed and only with the vaccines that prevent diseases for which that animal is at risk.” They also caution veterinarians: “Do Not Assume that Vaccines Cannot Harm a Patient – Vaccines are potent medically active agents and have the very real potential of producing adverse events.” Very few pet owners have had this disclosed to them.

The AVMA’s Principles of Vaccination (Attachment 6) states that “Unnecessary stimulation of the immune system does not result in enhanced disease resistance, and may increase the risk of adverse post-vaccination events.” (page 2) They elaborate by reporting that: “Possible adverse events include failure to immunize, anaphylaxis, immunosuppression, autoimmune disorders, transient infections, and/or long-term infected carrier states. In addition, a causal association in cats between injection sites and the subsequent development of a malignant tumor is the subject of ongoing research.”(Page 2)

Referring to adverse reactions from vaccines, the Wall Street Journal article cited above (Attachment 2) reports: “In cats there has been a large increase in hyperthyroidism and cancerous tumors between the shoulder blades where vaccines typically are injected.” With modified live virus vaccines (distemper, parvovirus, hepatitis), some animals can actually contract the same disease which they are being inoculated against. If the public knew an animal’s immunity to disease is not increased by overvaccination, they would certainly not consent to expose their pets to potential harm by giving them excessive booster shots.

Veterinary vaccines are potent biologic drugs – most having proven durations of immunity much longer than the annual, biennial or triennial booster frequencies recommended by vaccine manufacturers and veterinarians. They also carry the very real risk of serious adverse side affects and should not be administered more often than necessary to maintain immunity.

The extended durations of immunity for vaccines is not “new” or “recent” science as some members of the Maine Veterinary Medical Association (MVMA) have claimed. AAHA reveals on Page 2 of their Guidelines that ideal reduced vaccination protocols were recommended by vaccinology experts beginning in 1978. A Veterinary Practice News article entitled “Managing Vaccine Changes” (Attachment 3) by veterinarian Dennis M. McCurnin, reports that: “Change has been discussed for the past 15 years and now has started to move across the country."

According to a September 1, 2004 article in the DVM veterinary news magazine (Attachment 1), the 312 member Maine Veterinary Medical Association (MVMA) “champions full disclosure of vaccine information to pet owners.” MVMA president, Dr. Bill Bryant, is quoted as stating: “Its time for something like this to come out … disclosure forms will be an important resource to have available, [and] if it goes before the Legislature, we’d likely support it.”

It is time. Pet owners have the right to know the scientifically proven durations of immunity for the veterinary vaccines given their animals, as well as the potential adverse side effects and benefits. LD 429 would make that standardized information available to all pet owners.

Respectfully submitted,
Kris L. Christine
Attachments

CONTINUED BELOW

[Kris L. Christine]

CONTINUED FROM ABOVE


MODEL CANINE CORE VACCINE DISCLOSURE FORM

Prepared by Kris L. Christine

Vaccines have played a significant role in enabling animals to live longer and healthier lives. Thorough evaluations of the risks of the disease, and those potentially associated with the vaccine, compared to the benefits of vaccination for the patient, are necessary in crafting optimal health recommendations that include vaccination.

The proper application of vaccines to animal populations has enhanced their health and welfare, and prolonged their life-spans. The risks to animal health from non-vaccination are significant. However, vaccination is a potent medical procedure associated with both benefits and risks for the patient. Adverse events, including some that are potentially severe, can be unintended consequences of vaccination. Because vaccinating an animal which is already immune to a disease does not increase their immunity, but does expose them to the risk of adverse reactions, it is important to avoid overvaccination. Blood titers can help determine whether an animal’s antibody count is at protective levels.

The risks associated with the core canine diseases are as follows:

1. Distemper – high rates of morbidity and mortality from respiratory, gastrointestinal and neurological abnormalities; a widespread disease

2. Parvovirus – high rates of morbidity and mortality resulting primarily from gastrointestinal disease; this disease has worldwide distribution;

3. Canine Adenovirus – high rates of morbidity and mortality from liver dysfunction

4. Rabies – nearly universally fatal neurological disease. Infected animals are a potential source for human infection, thus vaccination is mandated by law in most states.

The risks associated with vaccination are as follows:

Possible adverse events from vaccination include failure to immunize, anaphylaxis, immunosuppression, autoimmune disorders such as hyper/hypothyroidism, polyarthritis, allergies, transient infections, and/or long-term infected carrier states. In addition, a causal association in cats between injection sites and the subsequent development of a malignant tumor is the subject of ongoing research.

Optimal immune responses are obtained by vaccines administered singly three to four weeks apart rather than in combination shots. Single vaccine administration also reduces the likelihood of adverse events as well as increasing the animal’s immune response. Only healthy animals should be vaccinated.

Except for the rabies vaccine, manufacturers’ labeled revaccination recommendations are based on limited scientific data and do not contain information on the vaccine’s maximum duration of immunity. The tables below contain the minimum duration of immunity data from the canine vaccine studies performed by Dr. Ronald Schultz, Professor and Chair of the Pathobiological Sciences Department at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine, which form the scientific base of the American Animal Hospital’s 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines, Recommendations, and Supporting Literature.

If your animal experiences any of the following symptoms after vaccination, you should contact your veterinary care provider immediately: fever, vomiting, diarrhea, uncontrollable trembling, lack of coordination, seizures or a hard lump at the vaccination site which doesn’t disappear after a couple of weeks.

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

Table 1: Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines

Vaccine Minimum Duration Methods Used to

Of Immunity Determine Immunity

Canine Distemper Virus (CDV)

Rockborn Strain 7 years/15 years challenge/serology
Onderstepoort Strain 5 years/9 years challenge/serology

Canine Adenovirus-2 (CAV-2) 7 years/9 years challenge-CAV-1/serology
Canine Parvovirus-2 (CPV-2) 7 years challenge/serology

Canine Rabies 3 years/7 years challenge/serology

Data from Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What we know and Don’t Know by Dr. Ronald D. Schultz, Professor and Chair, Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine.

Note: Challenge studies are those in which an animal is vaccinated, isolated for a number of years, and then injected with high doses of virulent virus to test its immunity to disease. Serology is the method of counting antibody levels in the blood to determine an animal’s immunity.

Duration of Immunity: The Rabies Vaccine Challenge - Show #185 Animal Talk Radio Show 7/30/08 Free Online Radio - Internet Talk Radio - 404 Page | BlogTalkRadio

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz Duration of Immunity

What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines - WSAVA - Scientific Advisory Committee Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at Special Report .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at About AAHA .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at Home

October 1, 2002 DVM Newsletter article entitled, AVMA, AAHA to Release Vaccine Positions, AVMA, AAHA to release vaccine positions - DVM

July 1, 2003 DVM Newsletter article entitled, What Do We Tell Our Clients?, Developing thorough plan to educate staff on changing vaccine protocols essential for maintaining solid relationships with clients and ensuring quality care 'What do we tell our clients?' - DVM

July 1, 2003, DVM Newsletter article, Developing Common Sense Strategies for Fiscal Responsibility: Using an interactive template to plan service protocol changes Developing common sense strategies for fiscal responsibility - DVM

Animal Wellness Magazine Article Vol. 8 Issue 6, How Often Does he REALLY Need A Rabies Shot Animal Wellness Magazine - devoted to natural health in animals

The Rabies Challenge Animal Wise Radio Interview
Listen to Animal Wise (scroll down to The Rabies Challenge 12/9/07)

The Vaccine Challenge Animal Talk Naturally Online Radio Show » The Vaccine Challenge - Show #91

Rabies Shot Killed my Poodle May 28, 2008 Channel 5 News WCVB Woman: Rabies Shot Killed My Poodle - Boston News Story - WCVB Boston

US Declared Canine-Rabies Free -- CDC Announces at Inaugural World Rabies Day Symposium CDC Press Release - September 7, 2007

Rabies Prevention -- United States, 1991 Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP), Center for Disease Control's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly March 22, 1991 / 40(RR03);1-19 Rabies Prevention -- United States, 1991 Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP) "A fully vaccinated dog or cat is unlikely to become infected with rabies, although rare cases have been reported (48). In a nationwide study of rabies among dogs and cats in 1988, only one dog and two cats that were vaccinated contracted rabies (49). All three of these animals had received only single doses of vaccine; no documented vaccine failures occurred among dogs or cats that had received two vaccinations. "

[puppylove2009]

Originally Posted by Kris L. Christine

Puppylove2009,

What state do you live in?

Tennessee

The vet said about 2 years ago it went from every 3 years to every year.

[Kris L. Christine]

Puppylove2009

Your veterinarian is not giving you accurate information. Tennessee state law calls for the 3 year protocol recommended by the CDC NASPHV (see below). If you have further questions about this, contact the Tennessee State Public Health Veterinarian, Dr. John Dunn, Tennessee Department of Health John.Dunn@state.tn.us Phone: 615.741.7247 .

Title 68 Chapter 8 tennessee.gov/sos/acts/103/pub/pc0765.pdf

Tennessee’s state anti-rabies law, Title 68 Chapter 8 Section 103 (i) declares that “Nothing in this section shall be construed to require more frequent rabies vaccinations or a greater number of rabies vaccinations than are required by the rabies compendium,” and defines the “compendium” under Section 102 (3) as “the most recent issue of the national ‘Compendium of Animal Rabies Prevention and Control’ published by the Association of State Public Health Veterinarians..”

The National Association of State Public Health Veterinarian’s (NASPHV) Compendium of Rabies Prevention and Control
Compendium of Animal Rabies Prevention and Control, 2008* </P><P>National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians, Inc. (NASPHV)
promulgated in Tennessee’s anti-rabies law declares that “All vaccines must be administered in accordance with the specifications of the product label or package insert. …. Vaccines used in state and local rabies control programs should have at least a 3-year duration of immunity. ….. No laboratory or epidemiologic data exist to support the annual or biennial administration of 3- or 4-year vaccines following the initial series.”

We had our dogs vaccinated when they were neutered and not since except for rabies (because I'm afraid of getting in trouble). I'm into holistic and natural care for humans and pets and refuse to subject my pets to unnecessary toxins, chemicals or whatever.

About 8 years ago, we took our miniature German schnauzer to a vet for a cyst on her rump. He ended up putting her on a heart medicine that he said we could only get from him at around $40.00 a month and wouldn't give a prescription for it. When her health deteriorated, we took her to an animal hospital and were told that vets are required by law to give prescriptions so that you can go to any vet and get the medicine. By the way, the same medicine was something like $4.00 a month at this place. I wasn't too happy.

Our schnauzer had been treated with a lot of veterinarian care, shots, pills, worm medicine, flea and tick solutions, etc., etc. She died in 2003, before she turned 9. Just writing this makes me cry. She was my favorite pet and I believe she would have lived a lot longer had I known then what I know now about toxins and how they affect not only humans but also animals. She only weighed 10 pounds, and when I think of all the chemicals that bombarded her little body, I feel very bad.

That's why I now treat my dogs as naturally as possible. I haven't treated them with flea and tick solutions but, rather, put garlic powder on their food. They have only had a few fleas and ticks but nothing major. Peppi (my schnauzer) had a lot of trouble with fleas (even though she was treated with the toxic solutions). I recently learned from this website that putting organic vinegar in a dog's food will also repel fleas and also help with joint problems, although I tried it once and my dogs were rather finicky about it. I'm going to try it again, though.

I didn't mean to get on my soapbox here. This is just something I feel strongly about. I have nothing against vets. In fact, I have a cousin who is a vet and also a good friend who is going to vet school. I just think they should learn the natural stuff too.

[puppylove2009]

Both vets told us that and so did the shelter. that 2 years ago it changed to every year so they give the 3 year vaccine every year. Maybe we were lied to but its strange that two different vets in 2 different counties both said that and the head of the shelter in a different county than those said the same thing

but I will investigate this further.

Originally Posted by puppylove2009

Tennessee

The vet said about 2 years ago it went from every 3 years to every year.

Really? Ive lived in TN my entire life and for as long as I can remember its been every year.....

[Kris L. Christine]

Bonster,

You should call the Tennessee State Public Health Veterinarian, Dr. John Dunn, Tennessee Department of Health John.Dunn@state.tn.us Phone: 615.741.7247 , he is a very nice gentleman and will inform you that the state law calls for the protocol recommended by the CDC's Rabies Compendium, which is for 3 years. Get it straight from the source.

Kris

Originally Posted by Kris L. Christine

Bonster,

You should call the Tennessee State Public Health Veterinarian, Dr. John Dunn, Tennessee Department of Health John.Dunn@state.tn.us Phone: 615.741.7247 , he is a very nice gentleman and will inform you that the state law calls for the protocol recommended by the CDC's Rabies Compendium, which is for 3 years. Get it straight from the source.

Kris

Thanks for the info.

Kris, do you have any information about rabies waivers in the Commonwealth of Virginia? I've been searching and cannot find anything and my Vet is not aware of a way to get a waiver.

Three years ago my dog went into anaphylactic shock following his rabies vaccination. Thank heavens I hung around the Vet's office for awhile after the vaccination, because if we hadn't still been there...he would have died.

Now he's due for a rabies vaccination again. I won't give it, no way, no how. But that is going to severely affect my boarding/grooming/activities options.

Thanks, RooRoo

[puppylove2009]

Originally Posted by Bonster

Really? Ive lived in TN my entire life and for as long as I can remember its been every year.....

I remember my previous poodle it was required every year....atleast in that county. When I got my current dogs I was living in Davidson county (I don't anymore) and they said it had been yearly for about 2 years at that point but every county is different.

Where i currently live its been yearly for a very long time.

The rescue I got my dog from was near Waverly (I don't know if you know where that is...... we met up with the shelter about 30 minutes outside Nashville to get our dog (all in foster homes) but the shelter is based in davidson and even she said rabies is a yearly thing.

But apparently davidson county hadn't been doing it yearly that long.

It seems like a statewide protocol

I contacted my local humane society as well and they said it was the law to have it done every year

We have one vet who is doing it every 3 years now so I don't know what happened......maybe its been overturned in the last month or so.....

But my current vet and our local humane society still says as far as they know its yearly.

I am trying to contact that guy that kris l christine mentioned. Let me know if you reach him as well


We are actually moving out of state though and that will be before either of my dogs need vaccines again and its every 3 years out there so yay

Originally Posted by puppylove2009

I remember my previous poodle it was required every year....atleast in that county. When I got my current dogs I was living in Davidson county (I don't anymore) and they said it had been yearly for about 2 years at that point but every county is different.

Where i currently live its been yearly for a very long time.

The rescue I got my dog from was near Waverly (I don't know if you know where that is...... we met up with the shelter about 30 minutes outside Nashville to get our dog (all in foster homes) but the shelter is based in davidson and even she said rabies is a yearly thing.

But apparently davidson county hadn't been doing it yearly that long.

It seems like a statewide protocol

I contacted my local humane society as well and they said it was the law to have it done every year

We have one vet who is doing it every 3 years now so I don't know what happened......maybe its been overturned in the last month or so.....

But my current vet and our local humane society still says as far as they know its yearly.

I am trying to contact that guy that kris l christine mentioned. Let me know if you reach him as well


We are actually moving out of state though and that will be before either of my dogs need vaccines again and its every 3 years out there so yay

I know all the places you are talking about! Well the area, I live West/North TN, and was raised just south of Nashville...

In all honestly I probably won't be contacting him.......but Good Luck i hope you are able to reach him!