I've come across a "designer" dog breeder who is 150% holisitic (as most of you know, i am against designer dog breeding). My views on holistic pet care (pets or breeding) have always been negative. I've always thought of it as laziness and greediness not to bring your dog to the vet for annual vaccinations. On the breeder/caregivers part it's selfish and harming the dog.

However, this lady has given me years of statistics and DVM quotes. I still believe it's an incredibly un-needed risk not to vaccinate your animal, but i'm wondering if there is any truth to her claims? She says vaccinations last years and each year we over-vaccinate our animals and suppress their immune systems which further harms them. She does put up a convincing arguement (as i slog through her pages upon pages of research) but am still unwilling to part from the ways i've been taught. She pays it my "close-mindedness".

So what do you think? Have cancer and other diseases been the result of over-vaccinating our animals? It's just something i've been mulling over for a few LONG days!

[Lara's mom]

Wow...That's a hard one. I'm sure you'll get a variety of opinions. My personal opinion is that we probably do over-vaccinate both our children and our pets. However, I'm not willing to take a chance on my dogs dying of something preventable because I didn't get them vaccinated.

To give you an example, A dear friend of mine took her dog up to her daughter's cottage for a vacation. 24 hours later, the dog had to be euthanized due to leptospirosis. His whole system just shut down that fast! I know this isn't the best example because the lepto vaccine only covers a few strains of the disease. However, it scared the hell out of me!

I'm all for herbal and holistic medicine - in conjunction with traditional medicine. I don't believe that it is safe on its' own. However, that is just my opinion. My girls get their vaccines when their Doctor determines they should have them. Until someone can prove to me that I'm doing the wrong thing, I'll follow my vets advice.

[UnderDog]

Hmmm....well I have to say, from my POV, this post seems self-righteous, ignorant and close-minded. But
w/e. Don't tar us all in the same brush. We feed a BARF diet (holistic), hunt our dogs (holistic), don't
vaccinate some (holistic) and give them each a lengthy daily run in pack order (holistic). None of our
dogs are harmed, I can assure you that. Some are kept fully vaccinated with proper doses anually, others
have anual vaccination of half of the recommended dose, some have the full dose but only have it every
3-5 years. What I DO think is irresponsible, harmful and even as far as cruel is when people don't
thoroughly look into it and have blood work done on their individual dog to work out how much is most suitable for the dog and how often. You COULD be over-vaccinating, you could be giving the right dose, you could be under-vaccinating, but unless you get blood tests done, you wont know. All the dogs we have are given yearly blood tests over a course of 3 years to find out if the dog needs vaccinating, how much the dog needs (sorry, but I think saying that a XXlb dog needs XXml of vaccine is utter rubbish. There is no set amount no matter what size the dog is) and how often the dog needs vaccinatin. All of our dogs be them rescues that are later rehomed or our own personal dogs or fosters, they are all given the blood tests and if the dog leaves the rescue/foster home before all the blood tests are done we (as in, me and my OH) fund the dogs blood test to assure it gets done. We are mostly holistic carers, we aren't greedy, we have often gone a night without eating and we have also gone nearly a week livin on stale bread and water because we had to fund blood tests for a dog that wasn't even ours right before payday, nor are we lazy, the vets is a 10 minute walk (literally) down the street. All of our dogs are healthy and as far as we can tell happy, none of them have health or behavioural problems with the exception of 1 foster who has a UTI and mastitis that she contracted before coming here. They all have proper exercise (even the chi's who most pet chihuahua owners would say only need a walk round the block daily, has at the very least 6 miles walking daily) daily, they have respect for us, don't fear us, do what we say when we say, none except the huskies pull on the leash (and anybody with a clue about huskies will know this is a GOOD thing) or try to play with it and have no issues being around hawks, owls, parrots, cats, guinea pigs, rabbits, chinchillas, primates, horses, cows, sheep, goats, pigs, hamsters, rats/mice and other dogs. We have taken extremely fearful and agressive dogs and in a matter of a day or two turned them round into confident, accepting, friendly dogs who now have no issues living in our pack, and we don't even lay a finger on them. So we aren't all bad, it is however irresponsible to decide on vaccinating (whether that is deciding for or against!) when the dog hasn't had blood tests. The only vaccination I personally administer without blood tests is the parvo vaccine, and even then that is only for small pups and I give only 3/4 the recommended dose to assure not over-vaccinating.

There's a reason my nickname is Waffle. <bg>

I understand that Holisitic caregivers can do it responsibly. I guess i should clarify. THIS lady doesn't. She has nearly 100 breeding dogs (all small dogs and mixed breeds) and so to me i believe her situation to be an irresponsible one. Sorry my statements seem stereotypical.

I've been doing a lot of research and while it wasn't unexpected to recieve replies with a hint of "hating", i WAS looking for education. My dogs are getting their titer tests done tomorrow. If it's true and their levels are up, i'll turn myself over to the vaccination claim.

I'm also researching feeding raw too.

My struggle? If we can't trust the professionals and what they have to say about their life's knowledge on these things, who can we trust? Would we NOT trust a doctor if he wanted something done to us and thought it would be best? The confusion of whether to believe your vet or not is where i'm at. Who can we trust if the vets "lie" too. (which is what holistic people more or less, and some directly, state)

[Lara's mom]

Perhaps, the best person to get advice from is not a breeder of so called "designer dogs." These people are selling mutts at an incredibly high price. They usually don't pay much attention to the medical and quality checks that a reputable breeder would do.

[Yogi]

I have to agree re: the boosters yearly etc issue. My vets over the years have all been supportive with regards to my decision regarding this issue. Many have even endorsed saying that over vaccinating in fact does foul up the dogs natural immune system. Many of mine outside of the required puppy and one year boosters never received another and all lived very healthy and long lives.
Just like people, too much and our system starts to become faulty and suffers in the long run. Over vaccination for rabies is a common discussion and has been proven to actually be a hinderance to the dogs immune system. Where the vaccination is actually longer lasting than many assume but we are stuck having to comply with state laws that determine otherwise even though these laws are decided on by people who do not have the knowledge our veterinarians have. In fact, they have generally no knowledge regarding the effect that over vaccinating does to a dog. So in that regard I agree but holistic breeding is still questionable on the whole. I am not in favor perse with raw feeding. I do acknowledge that it can have a good effect on a dogs teeth and gums, but at the same time I question what harm in the long run it may be doing as it has been centuries since dogs were left raw food to survive on. Over the past century we have created dog food. Dogs have acclimated their system over this time to this type of meal. Too suddenly place raw food down for them to eat, though may be appealing to the dogs sense of taste it does not tell us what long term effects it will have on the dogs organ. Many things taste good, this does not mean one should eat it.

[UnderDog]

Originally Posted by kobesescape

I understand that Holisitic caregivers can do it responsibly. I guess i should clarify. THIS lady doesn't. She has nearly 100 breeding dogs (all small dogs and mixed breeds) and so to me i believe her situation to be an irresponsible one. Sorry my statements seem
stereotypical.

I've been doing a lot of research and while it wasn't unexpected to recieve replies with a hint of "hating", i WAS looking for education. My dogs are getting their titer tests done tomorrow. If it's true and their levels are up, i'll turn myself over to the vaccination claim.

I'm also researching feeding raw too.

My struggle? If we can't trust the professionals and what they have to say about their life's knowledge on these things, who can we trust? Would we NOT trust a doctor if he wanted something done to us and thought it would be best? The confusion of whether to believe your vet or not is where i'm
at. Who can we trust if the vets "lie" too. (which is what holistic people more or less, and some directly, state)

There wasn't a hint of hate in my post at all.
Having nearly 100 breeding dogs isn't really responsible anyway (though that's not to say having 100 dogs at all is irresponsible, me and the OH have often been left to care for all of the kennel dogs, meaning 150+ dogs to feed, clean out, groom, play with, walk etc and all thrive) so to be honest I
wouldn't care for much she has to say. There is a great risk of contamination with just 1 bitch and a litter, I couldn't imagine various bitches, dogs and litters! That would be awful. I don't really see vets as professionals. They have been taught to go for expensive pet foods and more often then not are given nutrition lectures by purina/mars employees, so what can you expect? I have worked closely with my vet with various dogs and the BARF diet and now that we have both seen what positive affects this can have, we both agree it is an acceptable way to feed. Not for every dog granted, but for the average dog without stomach issues, then I don't see why not.

Originally Posted by Yogi

I am not in favor perse with raw feeding. I do acknowledge that it can have a
good effect on a dogs teeth and gums, but at the same time I question what harm in the long run it may be doing as it has been centuries since dogs
were left raw food to survive on. Over the past century we have created dog food. Dogs have acclimated their system over this time to this type of
meal. Too suddenly place raw food down for them to eat, though may be appealing to the dogs sense of taste it does not tell us what long term
effects it will have on the dogs organ. Many things taste good, this does not mean one should eat it.

It's not just good teeth/gums/jaws we noticed in feeding our dogs BARF, but as opposed to kibble fed dogs they have more energy, more muscle mass, they don't smell, they have amazing fur, better joints, more stamina, better ears/eyes and output is less and better formed. A dogs system hasn't really changed in the years 'we' have fed kibble, if you compare a dogs system to that of a wolf or wolfxdog, with the exception of timing (a wolfs system takes longer to empty due to them needing slower release energy) there really isn't any difference. Our dogs have done fine on raw food for years now and I have only seen positive things from it. The only issue I have had is switching from kibble to BARF, but that is easy with a healthy dog. Dog's havn't really aclimatised to using this food, we FORCE them to use this food, no healthy dog will starve that is a reason they eat it, not necessarily because they want to. Dogs have so much output on a kibble diet because they can't use a heck of a lot of the food, however because they are using most of the BARF food, there is less output, and it is also better formed and firmer - and it doesn't smell! I have had various necropsies and blood tests done on multiple dogs and all have showed healthy organs, primarily the stomach, kidneys and thyroid gland have been in exceptional
health various times. There is no scientific tests done on these dogs, purely private research however considering the circumstances I was extremely happy that these dogs were so healthy. Price of food as you can imagine is also a great factor as we buy in food for both our dogs, foster dogs, rescue dogs (we often have over 40 rescue/foster dogs at any 1 time) and we buy 70% of the food for the kennels, so we can be buying up to £1300 of food per month, which would be more like £2780 for a 'good quality' kibble, which would mean we couldn't have so many dogs in the rescue and thus more dogs being killed because nobody wants them.
Hope I don't sound aggressive, I really don't mean to.

[Lunareclipse]

100 breeding dogs? I thought you were supposed to breed dogs for the love of the breed. Not to turn profit. If you breed a dog to make money, that is completely the wrong reason to breed. That lady is not a responsible breeder. I'll agree with that.

[Lara's mom]

I'm not sure but I have a feeling that post you referred to was mine. I'm not sure why you thought I sounded self-righteous, ignorant and close minded. Opinions were being solicited and I offered mine. I NEVER said that anybody who chose differently was wrong. Is there only one correct opinion on this forum?

I do the best I can for my girls with the information that I have available to me. I've recently learned about titer tests that check the immunity to common vaccines. When my girls are due for their next vaccines, I fully intend to have this test. Frankly though, I think you need to watch your words. We ALL love our dogs and do the very best that we can for them. Tossing around insults, whether they were meant for me or anybody else are not helpful.

[Lara's mom]

I CHOOSE to home cook for my dogs because I believe that is what is best for them. Have I ever said that people who choose to feed their dogs commercial food are wrong? No. When asked, I have offered my opinion.

When it comes to what is best for our dogs, we all have different opinions based on our knowledge and what has worked for us. Who is to say that anybody is right or wrong? If the tag of self-righteous is to be hung on anyone, perhaps it should be on those who are so convinced that they are right that they feel the need to disrespect any other opinions. Again, just my point of view that I don't impose on anyone else.

[UnderDog]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

I'm not sure but I have a feeling that post you referred to was mine. I'm not sure why you thought I sounded self-righteous, ignorant and close minded. Opinions were being solicited and I offered mine. I NEVER said that anybody who chose differently was wrong. Is there only one correct opinion on this forum?

I do the best I can for my girls with the information that I have available to me. I've recently learned about titer tests that check the immunity to common vaccines. When my girls are due for their next vaccines, I fully intend to have this test. Frankly though, I think you need to watch your words. We ALL love our dogs and do the very best that we can for them. Tossing around insults, whether they were meant for me or anybody else are not helpful.

Nope, wasn't directed at you at all. It was directed to the OP. I never insulted anybody, did I?

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

I CHOOSE to home cook for my dogs because I believe that is what is best for them. Have I ever said that people who choose to feed their dogs commercial food are wrong? No. When asked, I have offered my opinion.

When it comes to what is best for our dogs, we all have different opinions based on our knowledge and what has worked for us. Who is to say that anybody is right or wrong? If the tag of self-righteous is to be hung on anyone, perhaps it should be on those who are so convinced that they are right that they feel the need to disrespect any other opinions. Again, just my point of view that I don't impose on anyone else.

I have never said it is wrong to feed anything other than BARF. I offered my opinion and knowledge too. There is no right in dog owning, some things don't work for others - some need NILIF, some need nurturing. Some need dominating and a firm hand, others just need encouragement and rehabilitation. I guess the self righteous thing was aimed at me, so FTR, I am not self-righteous and anybody that knows me properly will be able to confirm that. I don't disrespect opinions, I offer my own, and the fact that I don't sugar-coat everything seems to offend various people.

[Lara's mom]

Agreed. My only point is that whether a comment is directed to me or another member acting in good faith, insults are not the way to go. We all have an obligation to respect the opinions of others, even if we don't agree with them.

[UnderDog]

I can't see anywhere that I insulted somebody? lol.

[Lara's mom]

Quote: " self-righteous, ignorant and, close-minded." Unquote. I rest my case.

[UnderDog]

Those aren't insults, hahaha. I was just saying it how I and the other person probably saw the post. 'Eck.