[cigwyllt]

I'm just wondering if there is a major cultural/society difference between the way we buy/home dogs here in the Uk and in the States. I'm always surprised here at the number of times people will post a pic of a puppy and ask what the breed/mix/parentage might be. Here in the UK it is very rare to buy a pup without seeing the mother and the rest of the litter. It does happen occasionally - there are puppy farm outlets and dog "supermarkets" but mostly anyone who has done the smallest amount of research will buy direct from a "breeder" of some sort. This could be a family whose bitch has become pregnant by accident or who have made a decision to breed one litter, a serious breeder who breeds to match the breed standard and produces high quality animals or someone who just uses their bitch as a cash cow. But in nearly every case you will see the bitch with the pups and have some idea of what you are getting.

Obviously there is the odd occasion when a rescue or shelter will pick up a litter of cross breeds or a slightly older puppy will need rehoming but it is very rare.

So I'm just being nosy and wondering - how do you buy a puppy? Do you see mum and the whole litter or is it more common to buy the pup without seeing her/them?

[Lara's mom]

It is terrifying to drive in the U.K. In North America, we drive on the right side of the road. Switching to the left is enough to give one grey hairs!!! (Had to throw that in).

Most of my dogs have come from shelters so, I knew very little about them. I know my Jacks parents as well as their siblings.

[Todd]

So in the U.K. it's much more common to buy a pure breed pup then adopt or rescue one? Here in the states I'd say there are more people who get their pets from shelters or as strays but I could be wrong. Just my overall observations. It could be pretty even though with dogs bought and rescued. Yea, I'd say about the same...

[cigwyllt]

You're so funny We drive on the proper side. When we have been on holiday in the States my husband always likes to travel in the back of the car because it is so scary to sit in the seat where the steering wheel should be!

But is it common for people to buy pups without seeing the mum? I know you are friendly with Lance and Lara's breeder. But from what I've seen on the forum you seem to be the exception. Oh, and Yogi's pups of course.

[Ozzy29]

I am in Canada. You can go to a breeder here, but many people do not want to spend a lot of money getting a dog.
If you open any paper you can find 100's of dogs many of them free. None of these dogs come with papers, many do not have their shots.
Many of the pet stores near me sell puppies that come from a shelter. the older dogs were strays or were dropped off. The puppies are usually from unwanted mixed litters.
I live in a rural area and most people around here would never spend fifty dollars to get a dog let alone thousands. The amount of strays in the area is pretty shocking. You have to really watch in certain areas driving, where you know there are going to be a lot of dogs running loose.
And we also drive on the "right " side of the road!

[cigwyllt]

Here in the UK it is nigh on impossible to get a dog free to a good home. There are the odd small organisations that are happy to accept any donation but it is actually dearer to get a pup from a shelter than from a breeder. $ 300 is a common amount for a shelter to charge and that is for a young pedigree pup or an adult cross breed. That would cover neutering and up to date vaccinations.

It is cheaper to buy privately but of course you have to add the neutering and vaccinations when the time is right.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

You're so funny We drive on the proper side. When we have been on holiday in the States my husband always likes to travel in the back of the car because it is so scary to sit in the seat where the steering wheel should be!

But is it common for people to buy pups without seeing the mum? I know you are friendly with Lance and Lara's breeder. But from what I've seen on the forum you seem to be the exception. Oh, and Yogi's pups of course.

here in the US I'd say it is semi-common for someone to buy a pup without seeing the mom so long as there are papers but more experienced people or smart selecters/breeders would make sure to have a look at the mom. In pet stores you generally don't see the mom but buy the pure breed pup anyhow. if we are talking pure breeds. Mixes from the shelter generally have no identification of the mom.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

You're so funny We drive on the proper side. When we have been on holiday in the States my husband always likes to travel in the back of the car because it is so scary to sit in the seat where the steering wheel should be!

But is it common for people to buy pups without seeing the mum? I know you are friendly with Lance and Lara's breeder. But from what I've seen on the forum you seem to be the exception. Oh, and Yogi's pups of course.

Geez, thanks for remembering me in the mix..

I think what you will find here is most purebreds found in Pet stores will have papers to support their pedigree but to note, pet stores also sell mix breeds in the "designer" mode. In those cases no papers and in both cases no parents on site. In my case, majority of mine are purebred rescues though papers will never be given with these. Those that I sell are obviously purebred AKC registered on the whole outside of one mixed litter but in either case the parents are here for viewing so the person knows what they are getting, especially when looking for a purebred.
Keeping in mind the population in the US as opposed to the UK when it comes to pets is much greater here. Plus the inevitable need for mini dogs and designer dogs are more prevalent in the US than in the UK thus creating more in the mixed breed area where many times the sire and dam are of no consequence to the person buying as with most fads, these are more often bought on a whim like clothing or a cool car, with no regards for the living portion of the animal. Unfortunately the US is somewhat of a throw away society which greatly explains the outrageous number of shelters and rescues we have and the number of dogs in them. With this comes the adopting process where obviously again, no sire or dam to see before purchasing. Unfortunately there is no real correct philosophy being observed by the US or the UK in the long run when it comes to purchasing dogs whether purebred of mixed. It is just the way it is depending on where you are. Each country is different and much stems from societies views and philosophies.

[Lara's mom]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

You're so funny We drive on the proper side. When we have been on holiday in the States my husband always likes to travel in the back of the car because it is so scary to sit in the seat where the steering wheel should be!

But is it common for people to buy pups without seeing the mum? I know you are friendly with Lance and Lara's breeder. But from what I've seen on the forum you seem to be the exception. Oh, and Yogi's pups of course.

When I drove through England with a friend, I came near to killing us more times than I care to count. What is up with those roundabouts anyway?

From my experience and those of friends, when you buy a purebred pup from a reputable breeder, you usually remain in contact and report on the dogs progress as it matures. Kim and I becoming friends when I bought my Jacks from her was just an added bonus! However, I'm from Canada and most of the forum members are American. Maybe we do things a little differently here?

[Todd]

Here are some official stats for the United states in particular from the ASPCA...

Pet Statistics


How many pets are in the United States?/ How many animals are in shelters?/etc.


Facts about U.S. Animal Shelters:
There are about 5,000 community animal shelters nationwide that are independent; there is no national organization monitoring these shelters. The terms “humane society” and “SPCA” are generic; shelters using those names are not part of the ASPCA or the Humane Society of the United States. Currently, no government institution or animal organization is responsible for tabulating national statistics for the animal protection movement.

•Approximately 5 million to 7 million companion animals enter animal shelters nationwide every year, and approximately 3 million to 4 million are euthanized (60 percent of dogs and 70 percent of cats). Shelter intakes are about evenly divided between those animals relinquished by owners and those picked up by animal control. These are national estimates; the percentage of euthanasia may vary from state to state.
•According to the National Council on Pet Population Study and Policy (NCPPSP), less than 2 percent of cats and only 15 to 20 percent of dogs are returned to their owners. Most of these were identified with tags, tattoos or microchips.
•Twenty-five percent of dogs who enter local shelters are purebred. (Source: NCPPSP)
•Only 10 percent of the animals received by shelters have been spayed or neutered. About 75 percent of owned pets are neutered.
•The majority of pets are obtained from acquaintances and family members. About 15 to 20 percent of dogs are purchased from breeders, and 10 to 20 percent of cats and dogs are adopted from shelters and rescues. (Source: Ralston Purina and NCPPSP)
•More than 20 percent of people who leave dogs in shelters adopted them from a shelter. (Source: NCPPSP)
•Five out of ten dogs in shelters and seven out of ten cats in shelters are destroyed simply because there is no one to adopt them.
Facts about Pet Ownership in the U.S.:
•About 63 percent of all households in the United States have a pet. (Source: American Veterinary Medical Association)
•About 75 million dogs and about 85 million cats are owned in the United States. (Source: Pet Food Institute)
•According to the National Council on Pet Population Study and Policy (NCPPSP), about 65 percent of pet owners acquire their pets free or at low cost.
•The majority of pets are obtained from acquaintances and family members. About 15 to 20 percent of dogs are purchased from breeders, 10 to 20 percent of cats and dogs are adopted from shelters and rescues, and 2 to 10 percent are purchased from pet shops. (Source: Ralston Purina and NCPPSP)
•At least 20 percent of cats are acquired as strays. (Source: NCPPSP) Many strays are lost pets who were not kept properly indoors or provided with identification.
•More than 20 percent of people who leave dogs in shelters adopted them from a shelter. (Source: NCPPSP)
•The cost of spaying and neutering a pet is less than the cost of raising puppies or kittens for one year.
•The average cost of basic food, supplies, medical care and training for a dog or cat is $700 to $875 annually.
•About 75 percent of owned pets are neutered.
Facts about Pet Overpopulation in the U.S.:
•It is impossible to determine how many stray dogs and cats live in the United States; estimates for cats alone range up to 70 million.
•The average number of litters a fertile cat produces is one to two a year; average number of kittens is 4-6 per litter.
•The average number of litters a fertile dog produces is one a year; average number of puppies is 4-6.
•Owned cats and dogs generally live longer, healthier lives than strays.
•Most strays are lost pets who were not kept properly indoors or provided with identification.
•Only ten percent of the animals received by shelters have been spayed or neutered. About 75 percent of owned pets are neutered.
•The cost of spaying or neutering a pet is less than the cost of raising puppies or kittens for a year.
•Five out of ten dogs in shelters and seven out of ten cats in shelters are destroyed simply because there is no one to adopt them.

[GSDS4Life]

Well I'm from Canada.

As for the pet stores, they will not have papers as these pups come from puppy mills. They don't want you to know were the parents came from. They will also try and tell you that they come from their "own" breeders. I have a cousin who is with the OSPCA.

Then you have the BYB's( backyard breeders)

They do have the mothers. So they pretty much know that part of the breed. But sometimes don't know who the father is.

Then you have the Ethical breeders.
They are the ones who you will never see breeding "mutts"
With my dogs I did see the Dams. I interacted with them and spent time with them. The Sires were not there. But I did go to the breeder who had them. I wanted to get to know them and see their temperments. And both Sires and Dams were titled.

Also here in Canada it is Illegal to sell puppies with no papers from registered parents. Also, you can't sell pups at one price with papers, and cheaper without. Huge no no.

[gambler-girl]

Another canuck,

It is two different worlds really. Cultural differences are massive, in North America. Spay and nueter is much more previlant in NA in Europe not so much. I believe dogs live longer in Europe. Poeple in NA are not very pet responsible and are uncaring. In NA huge pet over population, Europe not many pupy mills not many shelters. In Europe very little to no dog fighting, fairly main stream in Southern US. In other words Europe is more civilized.

GG

[Lara's mom]

Speak for yourself. Uncaring? Where exactly are you getting your information?

[cigwyllt]

In NA huge pet over population, Europe not many pupy mills not many shelters. In Europe very little to no dog fighting,

What research do you have for that? What part of Europe would that be?

I don't know the statistics but I do know that as a country here in the UK we have nothing to be proud of when it comes to unwanted pets. The shelters (we call them rescues) are overflowing, there is a serious problem of dogs being trained to fight and used as weapons by low life in urban areas. My own part of the UK is notorious for its secretive puppy mills.

Here in the UK there has been a lot of exposure of the puppy mill trade in the media and the press but it has just caused the breeders to be more subtle in their approach to selling these dogs.

The only area where I would say we are ahead is in educating buyers not to buy a pup from an individual without seeing the mother. (Shelters don't tend to have so many pups, usually adults and strays)

Neutering is very heavily promoted and often subsidised for those on low incomes. I wouldn't say there is an average age for dogs to live - too much difference in individual breeds - but my spayed retriever died at 15, my old Jack Russells (one neutered, one entire) died age 17 and 16 respectively.

[Lara's mom]

There is no research to back up her statements because they simply aren't based in reality.

[GSDS4Life]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

There is no research to back up her statements because they simply aren't based in reality.

very true.

[juggled]

We got Tike from a shelter and have determined that his breed is a.... Gooddog. We did not meet the parents.
Our local shelter (in the US) its $45 to adopt a dog, but you have to get it fixed. Once you get it fixed they reimburse you $25.

Most people I know end up with shelter dogs.

[gambler-girl]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

Speak for yourself. Uncaring? Where exactly are you getting your information?

You live in Toronto? Do you read news papers? I am not able to post links yet but go to the Globe and Mail and search "Toronto Humane Society." The Humain society in your city has been shut down! Closed ! People on the board of directors and the president, other employees are charged CRIMINALY for animal cruilty. Have you really not heard of this? The shelter is closed to I believe June 1.

GG

[gambler-girl]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

What research do you have for that? What part of Europe would that be?

I don't know the statistics but I do know that as a country here in the UK we have nothing to be proud of when it comes to unwanted pets. The shelters (we call them rescues) are overflowing, there is a serious problem of dogs being trained to fight and used as weapons by low life in urban areas. My own part of the UK is notorious for its secretive puppy mills.

Here in the UK there has been a lot of exposure of the puppy mill trade in the media and the press but it has just caused the breeders to be more subtle in their approach to selling these dogs.

The only area where I would say we are ahead is in educating buyers not to buy a pup from an individual without seeing the mother. (Shelters don't tend to have so many pups, usually adults and strays)

Neutering is very heavily promoted and often subsidised for those on low incomes. I wouldn't say there is an average age for dogs to live - too much difference in individual breeds - but my spayed retriever died at 15, my old Jack Russells (one neutered, one entire) died age 17 and 16 respectively.

Well no research, but I lived in the UK, Ireland and a little while in France 20 years ago, for about 2 years. More based on personal experience then science and stats. MY OPIONION is it is much worse in NA. There is no sense of me being unable to search and link to prove my case as I can't link to it but if some one that has the ability. Euthanaisia I bet is much higher in NA perhaps your sensibilties are offened by 10,000 euthanized in UK when 10x or 100x time per capada in NA. What do you consider a puppy mill? how many pupp's a month produced? Some in the states over 1000 puppies a month. I doubt that in the UK. And when I was there very little S/N was happening, perhaps it has changed, back then people were responsible when their bitches were in season and most were left entire.

GG

Originally Posted by GSDS4Life

very true.

So when are we getting together so I can see your dogs "holding" you without padding?

GG

[cigwyllt]

I'm afraid that your experience of the UK animal welfare situation is way out of date.

I have no idea of the statistics and respective numbers of dogs per capita here and in North America but I do know that there are far more dogs in rescue here in than is morally right and that sadly their numbers are rising every day. Figures such as you are quoting are meaningless when they don't relate to the number of people wanting to buy the pups and the number of dogs being put up for adoption in shelters.There is obviously a huge market or they wouldn't produce the pups so there are clearly 1000's of customers. The actual number is irrelevant.

My definition of a puppy farm is any where where dogs are bred purely for profit with the minimum of care to enable the bitch to produce more puppies for onward sale.

As for the spay and neuter question - neutering is the preferred option for most owners. I would never want to own an entire bitch - I have seen my parents lose two comparatively young bitches to uterine cancer whereas my own bitch who was spayed at the age of two lived to be 16.

Can I ask why you seem to be so angry? You say my sensibilities may be offended at the euthanisation of 10 000 puppies. Do I take it yours are not?

Aside from this my question was asked following a discussion with a fellow dog owner who remarked that here in the UK our culture of dog buying is very different from that of the rest of the world. I simply wanted to know if it was common for people to buy a dog (often allegedly pure bred) without seeing the dam. I have no idea why this has sparked such an angry and argumentative response from you.