[Lara's mom]

The thing is, I'm not sure I like the alternative. As we all know, not all companion animal parents are created equal. If medication was not available at the vets office and people had to make the effort to go out, find a pharmacy, etc., how many do you think just wouldn't be bothered getting the prescription filled? I fear it would be exactly the same case with prescription diets.

For those of us who truly love our "fur kids", we'll move heaven and earth if necessary to get them what they need. Other owners...not so much. Those are the ones who worry me in the event that the convenience of getting medications and special diet foods from the vets office was no longer available.

[Pet food store owner]

It is not the medications that i have issues with, it is the food. Taking the convenance factor, would it not be easier to get food at many drug stores and different pet food stores with your refills there?

[Lara's mom]

With regard to prescription foods, my concern remains the same. If they can't get it at the vets office, there are those who would not make the effort to travel elsewhere to obtain it.

[Mr. Vega]

Store Owner,

Rx diets - The importance of anything being labeled and dispensed as an Rx to me is that it's use should be governed by someone that is licensed to do so b/c it could potentially have adverse side effects in certain disease states. 1 of many examples: Prolonged use of Hill's S/D diet for cats with struvite crystaluria or uroliths can be bad because it acidifies the urine. OK, easy enough, but if long term use is compounded with short term prescription of say, d,l-methionine (MethioForm) which is a urine acidifier- you could get into trouble, quick. One thing that scares me is playing around with acid/base balance in a body - ever heard of dogs drinking antifreeze?

Point of all that is this: Average person working a pet food store (which may or may not be you, I don't know you) just has not learned such things and can not make those decisions. I'm not saying those people are inferior, or dumb, or anything of that nature, they just haven't been taught the information. I have a lot of compassion for every animal I treat, and, I for one will not trust my patients' health and the treatments I prescribe for them with someone who isn't qualified in vet. drugs and their kinetics. You talked about moral obligations, well, I have a moral obligation to my patients and their owners that I will not allow just anyone to dispense what I prescribe. You said earlier that Agreed, however that does not mean that they should be able to sell what they prescribe. IT should be thru a certified store who taken a course and carries rx foods and fills the prescription

There is a course. 4 years of them actually. There is A LOT more to pharm than just filling up a bottle with some pills off the counter. And there's a reason that it is illegal for anyone other than veterinarians to dispense those drugs. And again, Human Pharm schools aren't ever going to require their students to learn veterinary physiology and pharmacology and related kinetics of drugs.

As far as raw food goes - if you ever come across any published journals with documented proof of how raw diets will benefit a dog, send it my way. I've never found such things, just anecdotal evidence. I've only helped to treat dogs on those diets for various food-borne pathogens and intestinal impaction/perforations. So, I gladly admit I don't know much bout the diet except from the dogs I've treated from it.

[Pet food store owner]

Originally Posted by Mr. Vega

Store Owner,

Rx diets - The importance of anything being labeled and dispensed as an Rx to me is that it's use should be governed by someone that is licensed to do so b/c it could potentially have adverse side effects in certain disease states. 1 of many examples: Prolonged use of Hill's S/D diet for cats with struvite crystaluria or uroliths can be bad because it acidifies the urine. OK, easy enough, but if long term use is compounded with short term prescription of say, d,l-methionine (MethioForm) which is a urine acidifier- you could get into trouble, quick. One thing that scares me is playing around with acid/base balance in a body - ever heard of dogs drinking antifreeze?

Point of all that is this: Average person working a pet food store (which may or may not be you, I don't know you) just has not learned such things and can not make those decisions. I'm not saying those people are inferior, or dumb, or anything of that nature, they just haven't been taught the information. I have a lot of compassion for every animal I treat, and, I for one will not trust my patients' health and the treatments I prescribe for them with someone who isn't qualified in vet. drugs and their kinetics. You talked about moral obligations, well, I have a moral obligation to my patients and their owners that I will not allow just anyone to dispense what I prescribe. You said earlier that Agreed, however that does not mean that they should be able to sell what they prescribe. IT should be thru a certified store who taken a course and carries rx foods and fills the prescription

There is a course. 4 years of them actually. There is A LOT more to pharm than just filling up a bottle with some pills off the counter. And there's a reason that it is illegal for anyone other than veterinarians to dispense those drugs. And again, Human Pharm schools aren't ever going to require their students to learn veterinary physiology and pharmacology and related kinetics of drugs.

As far as raw food goes - if you ever come across any published journals with documented proof of how raw diets will benefit a dog, send it my way. I've never found such things, just anecdotal evidence. I've only helped to treat dogs on those diets for various food-borne pathogens and intestinal impaction/perforations. So, I gladly admit I don't know much bout the diet except from the dogs I've treated from it.

Mr Vega

You can start by reading any works by Dr Ian Billinghurst, Dr Tom Losdale and Dr Pitcairn all who have published many books on the benefit of raw diets. I myself have been in the business for over 22 years and have seen the benefits of raw feeding when people had given up hope with conventional diets. I personally have sold raw food since 1990 with no ill effects that i know of and have way more problems when i sold Science Diet, Eukanuba, Iams, Nutro to name a few which incedentally i have not sold since 1997-98.
I can confidently say that i know more about pet food then any Vet or Tech that i have met because i have to know all foods that are available in my area. We have to know digestibility rate, caloric density, keep up with latest trends on nutritional issues as well. I do not rely on a white coat and the assumption that because it came from the Vet that it must be great. It is almost like a crutch. Recalls back up what i am saying. I am not saying that there is no place for Vets and rx, i am saying that they are not salespeople. Bottom line. Personally, i think that the ingredients Hills are scary. Moral obligations count in ingreidents too. Check out the ingredients in their canned food for starters. Maybe you can explain to me why they use the lowest common demonators when it comes to their ingredients as no one has been able to.

[Mr. Vega]

I have not read Dr. Billinghurst's entire book, just a couple parts here and there. I personally will have to have read published, peer-reviewed journals that document and quantify the benefits of feeding a raw diet before I throw out other food options. I have not found such literature anywhere. While Dr. Billinghurst and several others have reported trends they've seen in feeding raw, they (from what I've read) have yet to bring to the table (forgive the pun) the kind of information I (and most others) expect when I read scientific journals. What I have found in my own experience and journals are documentation of cases of food borne pathogens from this BARF diet. The open, abdominal surgeries to repair a perforated duodenum after an owner fed raw chicken bones was no picnic either. To me, it's just a risky business. I believe nutritional deficiencies are too easy to come by in a homemade diet without the help of a nutritional expert. And, lets be honest, MOST pet owners want nothing to do with feeding their dog anything that require more than a scoop out of a bag. A lot of owners I can barely get to give life-saving medication when they're supposed to, much less cook and prepare a well balanced diet from the grocery store. The Rx foods have their place and I've seen the differences myself. Personally, I like the Blue Buf. foods for just regular dog food, not Hills. If Blue Buf or similar company made some Rx diets, I'd probably use them instead.

My main hang up from your posts was that you stated we shouldn't be dispensing our own prescriptions. There just isn't anyone else to do it. Does being the only option make us salesmen? If there was an option, I'd be first in line to hand over all of my prescription drugs. That way I wouldn't have to worry about it and I could see more patients in a day.

[Pet food store owner]

It is not all prescriptions, just the food part of it. I personally feel that they have put many peoples pets onto Vets products because of the assumption of it being a superior product which is not.

[Mr. Vega]

Originally Posted by Pet food store owner

It is not all prescriptions, just the food part of it. I personally feel that they have put many peoples pets onto Vets products because of the assumption of it being a superior product which is not.

That is definitely a valid point. And, I don't doubt that you would know more than I do about pet food in general. As I learn more, I am always looking for people who know more about a particular subject. Which, brings this up:

Do you know which "alternative" foods have undergone AAFCO food trials? By alternative, I just mean the somewhat popular brands that are not the huge, mainstream brands - Nature's somethin, Blue buf, Diamond, etc...

[Lara's mom]

I must say, I'm finding this conversation fascinating. However, once again I must weigh in on the side of Mr. Vega. If my girls require anything of a prescription nature, I want it to come directly from my veterinarian, not from some teenager working part-time in a pet food store to earn a few extra bucks.

I also must agree with Mr. Vega with regard to the "raw food diet craze." My veterinarian is dead against these raw diets for the exactly the same reasons that Mr. Vega stated although Dr. Gignac has been very helpful to me in suggesting both ingredients, proportions and vitamin supplements for the home cooked food I serve my girls. I personally know of two otherwise perfectly healthy dogs who became extremely ill as a result of eating raw chicken with bones. One recovered after major surgery and a long convalescence. The other one didn't make it.

Mr. Vega's comment about most pet owners being unwilling to do more than open up a tin to feed their dogs is sadly correct. These same health conscious individuals who would not even think of feeding themselves out of tins and packages, think of nothing of subjecting their dogs to such a diet. The pet food industry represents a very powerful lobby and has very effectively "snowed" most dog owners into believing that the "toxic sludge" they package and sell is good for dogs. Those of us who have "done our homework" know full well that it is not.

The one point on which I am in agreement with Pet food store owner is that apart from prescription diets which to the best of my knowledge only a couple of companies produce, veterinarians could and should offer their clients better food from which to choose. There are a few good ones out there. There are always going to be clients who demand the convenience of "one stop shopping" and veterinarians are responding to this demand. However, I'd like to see inferior food like Science Diet out of the office in favour of better quality foods.

[Pet food store owner]

Without going into a can of worms about raw food and their benefits, Simply put dogs are carnivores pure and simple. They have teeth that are designed to rip and shred meat. So unless you are trying to out god, or anyones version of god they are raw eaters. They have not enough time for their gastro system to adept to kibble. That being said there is very good dry foods out there. To address the issue of the pimply face teenager, the store would be an accredited store which has taken the neccessary steps to ensure safety. They are not in fact, dispensing advice to the contrary they are filling prescriptions. Bag of Weight loss Hill's. Goes to the back of the store and takes a bag from the shelf kind of thing. It has been proven that Vet's nutrition knowledge is based on what they have learned from a very small segment of the total informational knowledge out there and paid for it in 2007. Did you know that it took Hill's over 4 mths in 2007 to get their food over the border into Canada becasue they could not tell the Government where and what source their meat meal came from. These are people that are telling you what foods to buy? I find it really hard to understand where their credentials came from with this and other examples of the trouble they have had dispensing food. To the aafco question, pretty much all food have to go thru aafco standards and in my opinion, means it meets 100% of the daily nutritional needs. One word however is missing and that word is mininum. They foods meet the minimum daily needs. Sort of like bread will sustain lfe but not much more.
Going back to raw foods for a sec, i feel that we can't be that small minded that we know more than Mother Nature. We insist and rebuilding a city under seawater, homes in Hurricane Alley and wonder they keep getting blown away kind of thing. Thinking we know more than Mother Nature about how to feed one of it's own kind of makes me wonder.

[Lara's mom]

100,000 years ago, dogs were carnivores. However, in the intervening millenium, dogs and humans formed that special bond and dogs began to switch over to a meat, vegetable, grain diet. Dogs have been eating like this for a very long time now. No doubt somewhere in our evolution we too ate raw meat. However, I wouldn't suggest that anybody try it now.

When I go to Dr Gignac (Allan) and he determines that my girls deed something available by prescription, I know that whether it be meds or special diet foods for the "foster kids", I never leave that office without knowing everything that he knows about the particular prescription. Then, I come home and do my own research and, if I read something that bothers me, I am free to call him to discuss my concerns. I find it very difficult to believe that the average worker employed at a pet food store has the knowledge and experience that Allan does.

For a number of reasons, I cannot agree with most of your opinions in this matter. When it comes to my girls, I want the very best in all types of health care, including the dispensing of medications and prescription diets. In my opinion, Allan is in the best position to do that. This is the safest and most convenient way for pets to receive the appropriate medication (prescription food is a medication) in the least amount of time. I would not want to see this change and would actively fight against it. On the other hand, let me reiterate that I strongly believe that veterinarians should be doing "their homework" on the subject of animal nutrition and offering a better quality of food to their clients.

On another note; have you read, "Foods Pets Die For" by Ann Martin? You may find it enlightening. She also wrote a second book which is equally as good but, the title escapes me. However, it will be easy to find if you decide you're interested.

[Pet food store owner]

Can you tell me that a wolf's digestive system is any different than a dog?
The simple awnser is no. I know it is safe to think that the Vets have all the awnsers but again i ask why so many recalls?
I am not trying to beleager anyone into seeing it my way however if you side on the common sense side, mothers natures side so to speak it makes sense.

To awnser your question about humans and meat eaters, our teeth like dogs tell the story. It is what god or your god gave you to cope in this world anytime we try to outgod them we end with egg on our face.

[Lara's mom]

Veterinarians can hardly be held accountable for the pet food recalls. However, this is perhaps where both sides come to a meeting of the minds. There is absolutely no excuse for these recalls. The problem is, there are almost no regulations as to what a company can add to dog food.

As two concerned members of the animal lovers community, lobbying for positive change in this field would benefit both of your business endeavours as well as to improve the health, vitality and longevity of our beloved companions. Just a thought...

[Pet food store owner]

This is where i have a problem with your discussion. If Vets knew what to look for in foods, they would not have had this issue. The recall happened because of low quality gluten which is a protein alternative. If they used more quality meal and meat in their foods they would not have had to use wheat gluten. That simple. These people are everything to their prt owners and they should know more about basic nutrition than anyone. Using wheat gluten is wrong but it is cheaper than using meal. When you are in aposition of trust and do not know the basics of their food that is wrong. I am sorry if i am cut and dry on this but this important. If i, the lowly pimply faced clerk so to speak with humour know this why shouldn't they? If they do know this, why would they allow the quality to be served?

Not trying to be an ass. Trying to get to the bottom lne or focal point. That is all

[Pet food store owner]

To finish my point is that low quality gluten needed to be spiked with malamine to get to the desired levels of protein. If they used no grains or at least whole grains with high levels of high quality specific meat protein sources, it would not have happened. I can sort of see this with ol roy and others, but not medi-cal, hills, eukanuba, Nutro, etc...

[Lara's mom]

In that respect, I absolutely agree with you.

[Mr. Vega]

Better food available from the vet? It's got my vote. That wasn't an issue for me.

Dog's digestive system vs. the wolf ehh?

No, not much different. The AVERAGE (as in, not an owner of a pet food store with an apparent vast amount of knowledge in dog food) human's ability to decide what should be included in a well balanced diet so that it does not result in any nutritional deficiencies? Not so good.

I have personally met a nice handful of BARFers that have just slapped some chicken (bone in, gah!) and a few other items down on the floor for their dogs to gobble up. They state it's "so natural, they way they were meant to be?" To which I reply: "So, I hope you're also throwing in the rest of that animal. The liver, GI tract, lungs, heart, etc... because those little gems carry TONS of nutrition that the wild ones ARE eating."

If one day I have a client that says "I want the BARF diet, and I am willing to pay a veterinary nutritionist to formulate a proper diet for Max." I will literally make all of the calls and set up the appt for them despite how I feel about the food-borne pathogens. But for Joe Shmo off the street that just wants to get his dog back to the wild side with a couple Tyson chickenbreasts, I will have none of it.

I wish the former were more common, but, that just isn't the truth. The latter is most of what I deal with = want it quick, easy, and inexpensive. So what do I have to do? Pick the lesser of two evils.

[Lara's mom]

Mr. Vega: You are quite right in stating that the average human does not have sufficient knowledge with which to create a really good home cooked canine diet. This is one area in which my own veterinarian has been extremely helpful to me. He has an interest in canine nutrition and has been able to help me devise a diet for my girls that is keeping them healthy and happy. He has also recommended various supplements that have made a noticeable difference. When you really think about it, good nutrition is the ultimate preventative medicine.

[Mr. Vega]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

Mr. Vega: You are quite right in stating that the average human does not have sufficient knowledge with which to create a really good home cooked canine diet. This is one area in which my own veterinarian has been extremely helpful to me. He has an interest in canine nutrition and has been able to help me devise a diet for my girls that is keeping them healthy and happy. He has also recommended various supplements that have made a noticeable difference. When you really think about it, good nutrition is the ultimate preventative medicine.

That statements still includes the average vet too. Pet F. Owner is right about that. I am not afraid to admit it. When I receieve the DVM, I will likely not have the skills necessary to form such a diet. Just evaluate one. Will I pursue those skills afterwards, absolutely. It doesn't mean I don't understand nutrition, I just can't create the diet. There's a nice gap between the two that I would very much like to fill - for myself, my dogs, and for the owners out there like the ones on this forum.

P f. owner, I hope I'm not getting you worked up in this debate we've had. Who doesn't enjoy a good debate? While we obviously disagree about some of the food stuff, I'd give anything to guarantee all my future clients will be as compassionate as you and a few others here. I am not, and will not be afraid of the clients that challenge me to gain knowledge through research so I can better treat their pets. I bet you know all too well the kind of stories I could tell you about terrible, neglecting owners and their pets/victims. Some of the things I've seen... I couldn't even share here b/c I think some of it would just be too much for people.

Tell you what. I will give Dr. B's little diet a second round of research. You got my word on it. It will take me weeks if not months to finish (there's PLENTY of other studying I have to do) but I'll come back and post my findings. I may find myself warming to it, but, if the info available is parallel to what I've found so far, I may not - we'll see.

[Lara's mom]

I have every confidence in the world that you are going to be a wonderful, caring, open minded veterinarian. Those patients who find their way to you will count themselves lucky!