For the past two months my pack + cat have been on a homecooked menu. We did this to address allergy and general health issues. They've been doing very well but I do have a question/concern about one of the dogs--Tanner, my cocker spaniel.

Tanner joined our pack in December, he is approximately 3 years old and from all indications his previous parents were good parents. Tanner generally has a good appetite and good bowel movements (though occasionally a bit soft). Ever so often, he will skip a meal and his stomach will make allot of gurgling noises. Last night for example, my mother had prepared a very nice animal stew that the other dogs and cat gobbled up but Tanner did not want to eat. This morning, he ate it quite happily.

Does anyone here have experience with sensitive doggie tummies and what might be causing the gurgling and fasting behavior?

[CorkyMax]

I have a cocker who had pancreatitis when he was younger----He was also on a home cooked diet but I was allowing too much fat in his meals--was cooking alot of chicken along w/the skin,etc. And if you use turkey--turkey skin and fat is the worst kind of fat. I thought I was really doing good cooking for my dogs but was also using way too many grains--grains are just not meant for dogs--most of them are allergic to grains--causes alot of the scratching that they do! Home cooked meals are much better than commercial dog food but it took me a long time to figure out that this still wasn't the best way to feed. For 1 thing all the enzymes are destroyed in cooking--same as in commercial food---I now feed a raw diet w/RAW meaty bones. Please look up on websites---use words raw feeding/dogs etc. I am planning on posting more web addresses on this forum in a future posting but for now I wish you would check into http://www.njboxers.com-------find heading:Barf for beginners most frequent asked questions----if you will get on a good site on this subject, a lot of them will give other sites to check out too. I still give oatmeal every so often if I want to give them a hot meal and oatmeal is the best grain out of all of them--corn and wheat are the worst. I use to feed a lot of rice when I cooked their food--not much good here either unless you want to figure in calories!

[CorkyMax]

[When I saw that website I entered on njboxer it had hilightd more than it should have so I clicked on it and sure enough won't work when it includes more than just this (use this)---
BARFing Boxers by Bree - A Bones and Raw Food Site

[CorkyMax]

Ye Gods!
Don't know why all this is happening---I never even used some of the wordings that are appearing on that web address!! Plain and simple:


BARFing Boxers by Bree - A Bones and Raw Food Site

[CorkyMax]

BARFing Boxers by Bree - A Bones and Raw Food Site

I was wondering about the fat because I do cook the chicken with the skin and include it in the final product. I looked up pancreatitis symptoms and it doesn't totally fit but I still think it might be better to try going lower fat. I've thought about the BARF or other versions of a raw food diet for dogs but am just not sure about serving raw meat when I can't afford organic. I'm a rawfoodist myself (vegan) so I "get" the whole enzyme/dead food thing it's just I'm not sure about raw meat.

I think I might call my vet and see what she thinks about it being pancreatitis.

[CorkyMax]

When you mentioned the soft stools ---it started my thoughts on too many fatty foods----Your dog probably doesn't have pancreatitis at the moment but too much fat in diet could lead up to this problem. And I will quote the last paragraph frm my "Dog Owner's Home Veterinary handbook"
Dogs that recover frm pancreatitis are susceptible to recurrent attacks, which can be mild or severe. These episodes can be prevented, in part, by eliminating predisposing factors. For example, place overweight dogs on a weight-loss program. Feed the total daily ration in 2 or 3 small servings to avoid overstimulating the pancreas. Dogs w/high serum lipid levels (determined by your vet.) should be placed on a FAT-RESTRICTED DIET.
My little comment here---remember dogs do need a little fat in their diet as we all do (I have a very stubborn daughter who I holler at a lot about her trying to do no fat--does me no good---I'm not talking about a dog here-I"m talking about her not doing fat herself---another long story here)
I just think you have a dog w/a tendency to have the problem I suggested if fed too much fat! I myself wouldn't worry too much if he wants to skip a meal now and then--probably a natural way of taking care of his "touchy stomach." I'd probably keep an eye so to speak on him--and I would be concerned if he did this too much and esp. if he skipped more than 1 meal in a row. Pumpkin (canned and not pie filling--just pure pumpkin) is good for "pooping" problems"--both diarrhea and constipation--best to mix w/equal parts yogurt-(dogs usually like the taste of pumpkin (and use plain yogurt with all the good stuff-acidi?? You probably know what I'm trying to spell here! And yogurt is a good thing to give him anyway----mine get it every day. I also give mine chopped fresh wheat grass that I grow (esp. in the winter) I also make my own yogurt frm time to time--If you would like a recipe (easy) I can give you a website for that too? Getting "long-winded" again!--time for me to get off

Hi Corky/Max,

I tend to agree with your thought process--I don't think it is to the level of pancreatitis yet but this might be an early warning sign. One website I looked at listed cocker spaniels (which my dog is) as one of the ones predisposed to this condition. So, we'll be dispensing with the high-fat diet and moving into a low-fat diet. Tanner seems fine after fasting one meal (his choice, not mine) which is fine--if he was going longer than that I'd be really concerned.

I tried making kefir for awhile but we ended up with more kefir than we could use and my dogs don't seem to like yogurt or kefir (go figure ). We slip some acidophilis in their food a couple of times a week since they won't do the yogurt thing.

Pass this on to your daughter: I am a vegan and I am a nutritionist. I can tell her from both personal as well as educational experience that a diet too-low in fat is not healthy. She will become deficient in key nutrients and will likely see her hair falling out. She need to aim for no less than 15% fat, but 20% is better. The fat she does consume should be balanced between Omega 3's and 6's with a ratio of 1:2 or 1:1 if she can (hard to do).

Now, for your eyes only: look closely at how your daughter is eating. Familiarize yourself with the signs of anorexia nervosa and/or bulimia and if you suspect it, get professional help. Know that there are pro-anorexia websites that teach how to do this lifestyle and how to hide it from family and friends. Disordered eating is on the rise...

[CorkyMax]

I'm back already (I sure have a hard time staying away) Just had to share about the problem w/my daughter after reading your last post. Not much I can do---She is 46 yrs old and she was anorexic(misspelled?) as a teen. About the only thing she would eat then was cheese-popcorn which my (ex) husband would put out on top of refrigerator and would magically disappear. I don't know if being a middle child (4 kids--and even the other middle child was the only boy--so she was the "real mid. child" if you get my line of thinking here) Well to try to not go in to too much detail----She now has a host of nutritional problems--allergic to milk etc--That I believe all these health problems stem back to the anerexia. She also has a "phobia" about exercise----She was getting up (still does I think) around 2:30 A.M. to exercise before she went to work (mailman) Did not have to be to post office till around 7 A.M. When she gets home--#1 priority is more exercise--will not answer phone or anything else! I know she use to do 6 hrs a day--may have slowed down a bit but hard to know as she wouldn't tell me anyhow!! She is skin and bones and stubborn as h___---will not listen to anyone--not even doctor or her husband. She has a hard time swallowing food and feels like she is going to choke. Also had an operation "flipped her stomach over" Hope you can figure out what I'm trying to say here--had to do w/problems w/GERD I guess. Didn't help--she says it is worse than it was--trouble w/ swallowing etc. Well guess I'll end this now--Just wanted you to see the situation here. Thanks for listening.:???:

Hi Corky/Max,

It has to be hard to see your daughter go through this and not be able to do anything. Yes, her "problems" are probably a mixture of psychsomatic and actual physical problems resulting from the long-term anorexia. Sounds like she still has disordered eating and is using the excessive exercise as a form of purging (typical--it's what I did combined with laxatives). It can be very difficult to get someone with disordered eating to see that they have a problem and even harder to get them to seek help.

[CorkyMax]

I was looking up websites to post and I came across 1 or 2 I thought you'd like to see: Myths About Raw: An Honest, Candid Conclusion Under web results-find --Myths about raw: an honest, candid conclusion (my browser is Internet Explorer so may be listed in different order--on mine it is the 1st web result)
There is a lot of good 'stuff' about raw feeding here and way down the page there is a heading on Pancreatitis I just know you'll want to read--but I hope you will also read the whole page! There are a bunch of web results listed here (on the listings that came up when you put in the above 1st web address) Some that I checked out and are very good are (listed under web results) are:Raw food diet--a lot of posts on raw versus commercial dog food and Pancreatitis is mentioned quite a bit too. The many myths of raw feeding is another good web result (2nd 1 on my Internet Explorer browser)

[CorkyMax]

HI! (again)

Just a quick note---Went into the site again--at bottom of article you can click on a lot more to see on this site---go to home page esp. listed at bottom of 2nd or 3rd 'area' you can get into if you just keep clicking at bottom of page. Happy Hunting!

Thanks, I will read the sites this weekend. I have two (human) nutrition finals to do --one due this weekend and the other due next Friday but I'll need some "down" time so I'll see what they have to say.

It was funny...at least I thought it was...here I was going back to college to study up on human nutrition since a drastic change in diet performed miracles for my health and it took going through hell last year with my cattle dog, Libby, for me to realize that, geeze, processed food-like substances were no more healthy for them than they are for me! So, now I'm trying to learn human nutrition AND dog nutrition. Fortunately, there is allot of crossover. I'm even thinking of incorporating this revelation into my future nutrition practice -- when the human comes for a consult, have them bring their dog as well.

[CorkyMax]

Glad you got my message--Don't know for sure if you were joking (and I did laugh at 1st) but that sounds like a pretty good idea having them bring their dog for a consult too!! Am going to try to bring a bunch more websites to this forum today--hope they get posted this time---got 'shot down' when I tried a few days ago! I won't keep bothering you today but will wait to hear frm you again when you are ready cause I know you are busy studying.

Actually, it started out as a joke when I first thought of it but the more I think about it, the more serious I get. Why not? I bet my client's pets will need as much of a nutritional overhaul as the client! And, what better way to motivate them to go for a walk than to tell them their dog needs a walk?

Actually, I'm at work right now. I pop in periodically when my brain is on overload from searching for some obscure journal on the internet. Well, off to look for another anthropology journal in Ireland....

Not to get into your whole giant discussion about nutrition, but I just wanted to say that once in awhile, my dog will "fast." Perfectly healthy, not sick, just isn't hungry that morning when we feed her breakfast. But she will eat dinner later that same day. It doesn't happen very often-- I think only 3 times in all of 2008-- so I don't worry about it, as I've heard of other dogs doing this, and it even happens with us humans occasionally as well. As for the gurgling noises, this could be due to a combination of air and fluids moving around, as is normal-- if you put a stethoscope to your abdomen, even after a long fast, you would hear "bowel tones" and other sounds. It doesn't necessarily mean something's wrong-- quite the contrary, really.

Originally Posted by Frecs

Ever so often, he will skip a meal and his stomach will make allot of gurgling noises.
Does anyone here have experience with sensitive doggie tummies and what might be causing the gurgling and fasting behavior?

my girl chi does this- she had a horrible case of coccidia when she was a puppy- to this day although she is WAY better - if we give her something and it makes her stomach upset she wont eat- and her stomach makes these gas sounds all day- when they stop and she is better than she eats but her little 6lb body certainly can cause a racket. Before when this used to happen she would get the runs........overall her health is much better a 4 yrs.

Generally speaking, dogs fasting is not something to worry about as dogs and other animals often do this when they aren't feeling well. If the fast lasts only a meal or two, no problem. If it goes longer, it can be a problem. Last year, when my cattle dog was fighting for her life she would have bouts of not wanting to eat. For her, this was very bad thing because if she didn't eat, her organs would start shutting down and she would die. So, for her, becoming anorexic (not wanting to eat) was a bad thing. If the dog is generally in good health, fasting is fine. I have even read a book on holistic health care for dogs that recommends a weekly fast of one meal. I haven't tried that because I think my dogs would drive me crazy if I didn't give them their food.

It may be because of what I went through last year that I'm a bit paranoid about the health of my dogs.

I am going to reduce the fat in the food I make for them--no sense tempting fate.

I don't really know where myths about raw food would come from, dogs were eating raw food for a very very long time before they were domesticated and seemed to get on fine.

There are also quite a few good peer reviewed scientific studies about raw food vs cooked food for pets out there.

Originally Posted by JohnSamuels

I don't really know where myths about raw food would come from, dogs were eating raw food for a very very long time before they were domesticated and seemed to get on fine.

There are also quite a few good peer reviewed scientific studies about raw food vs cooked food for pets out there.

Key differences between wild canids and domestic canids:

1. wild canids eat their kill as soon as they kill it--fresh off the hoof so to speak --while domestic "raw meat" has gone through a (less than sanitary) slaughterhouse, then to the store, then to the house, before it is put before Fido--plenty of time for the population of bacteria to build quite high
2. wild canids don't eat every day -- they feast and then fast until the next kill which could be days -- plenty of time for the body to deal with the bacteria load; no so for Fido
3. wild canids have a gut flora population prepared to deal with the typical invasion of bad guys; not necessarily so for Fido

Domestic dogs are a long way from their canid ancestors (with a few exceptions). And, the domestic version of a raw meat diet is not necessarily the same as the wild version.