Hi. My 3 year old bichon was diagnosed with Struvite uroliths and a high PH level of 8.5. He was recently (few months) switched to BRAVO original chicken and turkey raw food. I also was supplementing with PAAWS. I am wondering if there is any correlation between the BRAVO raw diet and this type of problem in dogs. I have searched the internet but haven't had much luck. I hate to change his diet as he has food allergies. I have stopped the supplements and will be back to the vet in 2 weeks to check his urine. Any information would be appreciated.

thanks

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by Readinglady

Hi. My 3 year old bichon was diagnosed with Struvite uroliths and a high PH level of 8.5. He was recently (few months) switched to BRAVO original chicken and turkey raw food. I also was supplementing with PAAWS. I am wondering if there is any correlation between the BRAVO raw diet and this type of problem in dogs. I have searched the internet but haven't had much luck. I hate to change his diet as he has food allergies. I have stopped the supplements and will be back to the vet in 2 weeks to check his urine. Any information would be appreciated.

thanks

HI! Welcome to the forum. I wrote you a fairly long post yesterday--went to submit it and my darn computer (more like the cable co) acted up and 'knocked' the message out, which was totally disgusting. This was last night and I figured maybe it would be okay today---It wasn't--couldn't get the internet to come up at all---so I called my neighbor to see if she was having any problems (same provider) She said to unplug the little black cable box---one of the connections--and then plug it back in---It worked! Anyway I just can't write it all over again so this will be more to the point. Will just say 1st that I've had a little experience with the prob. you have. My one cocker had crystals and his ph was 9--had some kind of bacterial infection. (ended up finally being neutered as he had prostrate problems and this was the way to end that problem--no problems since (3 and a half yrs)
Will quote from a Dog Owner's Home Veterinary Handbook that I have: Bladder stones are common. All dogs can develop bladder stones. (I am leaving out a few sentences that are not important). Most bladder stones are STRUVITES which are composed of magnesium ammonium phosphate. They form in an ALKALINE URINE and are usually preceded by a bladder infection. The bacteria and urinary sediment form a nidus around which the ammonium phosphate is deposited. Struvite stones dissolve in an acid urine low in magnesium and protein. (I read somewhere that it doesn't have to be low in magnesium if the magnesium has an acid base--chlorine or sulfate or 2 pinches of Epsom salt.) The formation of new stones occurs in up to 30% of cases. The dog should be seen and checked at reg. intervals.---end of quotes. Now if you do a little "detective work", I doubt that the Bravo has anything to do with it unless it has a lot of alkaline ingred.--double check the label. A lot of veggies are alkaline, while the meat is acid.--then there is the issue with the magnesium--check that out too. I feed a raw food diet, although at time of Max's high ph of 9, I was feeding a home-cooked diet--don't know if cooking might have dif. effect than raw or not--kind of doubt it although the raw food is better digested. Anyway, when I found out how high the alkaline was (but wondering if it was also high because of the infection at the time--he also had a few seizures at this time--because of the infection or the high alkaline ph--?? Bottom line, it made me want to get the ph more acid (6.3-6.5 I think) esp. since these kind of stones form in an alkaline ph. Don't know how well this works, just telling you what I do to try to get more acidic.--I use a splash of BRAGG organic raw-unfiltered apple cider vinegar mixed in most of my 2 dog's meals--evening meal. I read you can put a little in their drinking water but it wasn't mentioned for that reason--suppose to get a dog to drink more water--makes them thirstier. I also feed tomatoes and apples--CRUSHED raw, mixed in with their meals. Better end this or it will get knocked out automatically because of being too long a post.
Forgot to mention--the reason for high alkaline ph(my dogs) I feed a lot of raw crushed veggies, still do but hoping the vinegar is helping!

Hey, thanks for the efforts in the reply. Sorry to hear about the cable


I bought a cranberry enzyme powder today. Hope that will aid the acidity level for Sonny.

The vet was saying something about the meat being high in phosphorus? Not sure what he was talking about. The BRAVO is meat only. It has a few veggies in there too I think, but not many.

I go back in 2 weeks and we'll see how he is doing.

thanks again.

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by Readinglady

Hey, thanks for the efforts in the reply. Sorry to hear about the cable


I bought a cranberry enzyme powder today. Hope that will aid the acidity level for Sonny.

The vet was saying something about the meat being high in phosphorus? Not sure what he was talking about. The BRAVO is meat only. It has a few veggies in there too I think, but not many.

I go back in 2 weeks and we'll see how he is doing.

thanks again.

Meat is high in phosphorus (wasn't mentioned in my vet book in connection with the problem) Wondering if he was concerned about that being an extra stress on the kidneys at this time because kidneys have an extra load because of the stones--(urinary tract). I know that when a dog has kidney disease, you are suppose to use a special diet low in phosphorus but I don't see what it would have to do with creating the problem of the stones forming in the 1st place. Maybe you should ask for an explanation on this when you go back to vet. You stated that the BRAVO is meat only---Is it a 'complete' dog food or one you are suppose to add other things to? Too much meat (protein)and nothing much else is not healthy for the dog anyway. The dog needs some carbs--I use mostly veggies to supply that. I do feed oatmeal every other day or so for the morning meal with yogurt and whatever scraps of meat I have frozen in a baggie in the freezer for that purpose--and sometimes add a little canned pumpkin (not the pie filling--just plain pumpkin.) and sometimes add a raw egg . Most of the time I put the raw white in the hot oatmeal when I take it off the stove and stir till it turns white--but I don't always--sometimes I give the whole egg raw. If you are suppose to stay away from phosphorus (at least for the time-being) not sure but think most grains (oatmeal) have phosphorus. A dog also needs a little fat in it's diet. (Pumpkin may have phosphorus too) The cranberry enzyme powder sounds good---Where did you find out about that and where do you get it? Exspensive? Well, guess I don't have any more to contribute right now--except I think I read somewhere that asparagus was good for the urinary tract but may have phosphorus--could check out phosphorus content on the internet. If fed raw--all veggies should be crushed real fine otherwise the dog gets no nutrients from them--to do with not being able to break down the cellulous wall of veggies so they pass through with no nutrients being available to the dog. I crush mine in a mini-processor--Have to get real fine--ideally about size of a pin head--pretty hard to do but as fine as you can. Could also be juiced if have a juicer---and then you would add the pulp back in the juice. Hope Sonny feels better soon! Bye for now.

Hi. BRAVO is not a complete diet in the sense that it has no supplementation. You have to give supplements when feeding. It is mainly meat with a small amount of veggies added. If you do a google search for BRAVO dog food you could look at the ingredients for me if you can.

For supplements I give a daily multi PAAWS and Salmon oil. I got the Cranberry powder from a dog health food store. It is called Cran-Tri-C and has cranberry and vitamin C.

I find the part about having to grind veggies and fruit interesting. I have read that as well, but if feeding raw is creating "life in the wild", when would dogs have their berries or other such food ground up in the wild. I do cut up the veggies and smush a bit with the fork, but I do not grind or blend them.

As for oatmeal, I can't feed that to him. He is grain intolerant. I wish he could eat it though!

Thanks.

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by Readinglady

Hi. BRAVO is not a complete diet in the sense that it has no supplementation. You have to give supplements when feeding. It is mainly meat with a small amount of veggies added. If you do a google search for BRAVO dog food you could look at the ingredients for me if you can.

For supplements I give a daily multi PAAWS and Salmon oil. I got the Cranberry powder from a dog health food store. It is called Cran-Tri-C and has cranberry and vitamin C.

I find the part about having to grind veggies and fruit interesting. I have read that as well, but if feeding raw is creating "life in the wild", when would dogs have their berries or other such food ground up in the wild. I do cut up the veggies and smush a bit with the fork, but I do not grind or blend them.

As for oatmeal, I can't feed that to him. He is grain intolerant. I wish he could eat it though!

Thanks.

Just a quick reply for now, got to get out and plant a few seeds before it rains! I looked up the Bravo dog food just now----Can't believe they have raw pork in one (the Original Formula) Raw pork can cause a worm, (gets in the muscles--human or dog)--a disease called trichinosis---check it out on your browser. And then they have raw salmon in the one called Specialty Products--Raw salmon (esp. from the Pacific Ocean area--including California) has a parasite/fluke "thing" that can kill your dog. Maybe check on web--raw salmon/dogs or something on that order--or raw salmon/flukes
I phoned the company and of course it is Sunday today---got an answering service--She is going to have the company call me tomorrow (supposedly in the morning. Will post you when I get the info I am asking about. The phone # is: 866-922-9222 if you would like to talk to them----sounds like a toll free # but not sure (I have unlimited calling). Before I talk to them tomorrow, could you let me know which of these you feed?---Original Formulas; Basic Formulas; Pure Boneless Meats; or/and Specialty Products??
Specialty Products sounds the best of the lot but is still lacking something (I'm sorry I'm in a hurry and haven't the time to check out what is lacking again right now. I would have picked the Original Formula if it wasn't for the raw pork!! Sounds to me like you have to (or should!) add some things to this Bravo dog food to have a complete nutrition! I should retract about the tomatoes--just read that they could cause shaking/tremors in dogs. I have fed mine a lot of tomatoes over the past 5-6 yrs and never had any problems
but wanted you to know---maybe it bothers some dogs and maybe not others
--you never know! In the wild---dogs got most of the "vegetation" from the "predigested stuff" that the animal they killed had in their system. Yes,
they may have eaten berries,apples,etc that they happened across but did they really get much nutrients from them and maybe just filled their stomaches when hungry and nothing else available at the time--and it may have just tasted good too--I don't know! Hopefully the Bravo "people" can answer my question--Hope they have a good answer on the raw pork and salmon! Will check in later to see if you got this today and let me know which kind(s) of the Bravo you are using. Bye for now.:???:

I did go back and check on the Speciality Products---has no meat (regular) or bones ---just organ meats and vegs.---You would have to supplement with raw meat (and the missing ground bones---for calcium,etc.---lol, you might as well feed your own homemade raw dogfood if you have to buy meat and feed as a supplement. Have you seen this web site:
http;//www.bravorawdiet.com/supplements.html or maybe just
http://www.bravorawdiet.com
Ignore what I said about which sounded the best--in my hurry to get outside I
think I got confused--whichever has the salmon or the pork I would not want!

Hi. I feed BRAVO Original - chicken, turkey or beef flavor. I buy the 2 lb tubes.

Since I didn't know they had any veggies in there I was feeding once a day -

Honest Kitchen - Force (dehydrated raw food) you can do a google search to see that food as well. It was recommened on the Whole Dog Food Journals annual list.

I also feed raw egg 1x a week including shell.

As for veggies I occas. chop up finely zucchini.

Appreciate the time you put into this.

Laura

[CorkyMax]

Just found this info that you might like to see! I found out something there that I had wondered about before, that the infection (stone, bladder infection, etc.) can raise the ph and when the infection is gone, the ph comes back down. It really irritates me that my vet never said anything about this to me because he knew I was very concerned about the ph being 9
when my Max had his infection. Next time I see my vet, I'm going to ask him why he didn't tell me!! Anyway here is the address:
Berte's Holistic Products for Dogs & Cats On that page, click on the word--newsletters (up above in black)-- then scroll down a ways and find December 2002: Bladder Stones + Crystals-- click on it. After you read that article, also find the newsletter--February 2009
Top article)--Diets for Special Health Needs---Urinary Crystals. See about struvites and be sure and see the bottom paragraph on this subject--that begins; In each of these conditions, etc.

[CorkyMax]

Reread this whole thread just now and I see you did mention the Original Formula---which does have the raw pork-----But I just talked to the Bravo company this morning and 'she' said that the raw pork (at least frm the U.S.) no longer has the threat of the trichinosis (that somehow that had been eliminated--I can't tell you exactly how this has been done---a guy that works in the meat dept. at my grocery store had told me that raw pork was safe now (frm U.S.) a while back but at time I didn't know whether he knew what he was talking about or not--but now having heard it from this company too--guess it is true---and she assured me that they only use U.S. pork in their products. I have no idea if other countries have solved this prob. or not so I would never give from anywhere else! Going to have to talk to the "meat man" at my groc. store and make sure all is frm U.S. and maybe I'll give some to my dogs--Will still be hard to do as I have believed for so long about not feeding raw pork! And on the salmon, which appears to only be in the Pure Boneless variety---She said that it is from the Atlantic waters only and I know that it is the warm Pacific waters that has this parasite that can kill your dog (if fed raw--cooked would be okay.) So the Bravo foods should all be okay. Just for future reference, and the need to know should arise--There are other fish from warm waters that can carry this parasite too!
Even though I know which fish is okay, I'm still not feeding raw fish of any kind--just too many chances might get a hold of the wrong ones.--but the Bravo should be okay as they better be doing it right or they might get sued if someone's pet got this problem and died because of it! How long has your dog been on the Bravo---They asked me that and I couldn't tell them but she doesn't see how that food could cause the crystals to form--said she'd heard of some problems with dry dog food. All in all to me, it sounds like your Bravo is not part of the problem. Be sure to ask the vet what he meant about the phosphorus--If it does have to do with causing more stress on the kidneys at this time---because of an infection the dog may have--then you might want to consider whether this Bravo is too rich in meat (too much phosphorus) to be giving until the problem is cleared up and not a "threat" to putting too much on the kidneys. I don't know what this food costs--asked her but it depends on the dealer and where you are located she said--but bet it is expensive and you still have to add supplements and "FOOD" to some of the varieties----But if you can afford it--guess an easy way to feed a raw diet (the Bravo)---but doing it yourself--you can put "into" it what you want---But it is more time-consuming and a lot of things to learn--there is plenty of info on it all on the web though. Better stop now--getting long again!

Hi. I wrote to you the other day and my post never showed up. Thanks so much for all your efforts. I posted to you taht I feed BRAVO chicken and turkey. I just recently purchased Beef to try. Guess that is the one with pork? I would think they have a pork one and that is not what I have . They don't mix the proteins in their food. It is a one protein food.

It is not too expensive. One month for 3 dogs runs me about 100.

I also feed - Honest Kitchen (you can google this). It is a dehyrdated raw food that was recommended by Whole Dog Food Journal's annual list. They eat the Force which is grain free. I have now started to feed this 1x a day and BRAVO 1x a day. I thought maybe the meat was just too rich for 2x a day. Will see if they do better.

They are so allergy prone that I have to be so careful about what I feed. No grain, no oatmeal.

I go back to vet next wednesday for retest of urine so fingers crossed.

As for feeding raw homemade. I can't get past the idea of feeding raw carcasses to them. I do make homemade raw egg and yogurt mixes 1x a week, but giving a whole fish or other such animal intact just doesn't appeal to me. Maybe someday I'll be brave!

My Tuesday had struvite bladder stone surgery in March and I finished the prescription food and have now switched to Innova Adult little bites to which I add a tbs of canned Innova then one scoop of cranberry for dogs. I also order a refractometer so that I can keep track of her urine PH. I sure hope this works as I do not want to put her throught the surgery again. I had planned to just take a urine specimen to the vet every few months but if the meter works well I will not have to do that.

Originally Posted by Readinglady

Hey, thanks for the efforts in the reply. Sorry to hear about the cable


I bought a cranberry enzyme powder today. Hope that will aid the acidity level for Sonny.

The vet was saying something about the meat being high in phosphorus? Not sure what he was talking about. The BRAVO is meat only. It has a few veggies in there too I think, but not many.

I go back in 2 weeks and we'll see how he is doing.

thanks again.