[rmd20004]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

Another thing I am thinking about---In that quote I gave you in other post about this breed's health problems (which weren't many!)--about some of them being prone to hip dysplasia---Maybe she has hip problems/arthritis since that leg operation---Could that operation get her movements off (like a person with a longer leg than the other one wouldn't walk right)---maybe cause the hip joint to be stressed, etc?? Having extra weight on her is going to possibly cause hip dysplasia or arthritis---which in turn might bother her when she walks, so doesn't want to walk!!

Wouldn't it be a good idea to take her to the vet for a wellness exam for hip problems/arthritis and other possible problems and blood tests to find out about hypothyroidism and other things that might show up in a blood test? That operation is a trauma ---which could trigger other things to happen--like diabetes for one! Some symptoms for that could be weight gain --the lethargy----Things she is showing now. I have diabetes so know a little about it. And it is true that it can be triggered by some kind of trauma!

This breed is suppose to be energetic and active--needs plenty of exercise! Suppose to be a hardy dog!---Says all this in my book on breeds! Doesn't it sound like something is just not right with your dog (beyond being overweight)!?

Have not had time to look up those web sites I mentioned to you in my other post! May be a couple days at the most!

Anyway, what do you think about the problem possibly being something I have mentioned above? :?:

[COLOR="Blue"][/COLOR

yes, I have had her back to the vet several times since surgery. No hip problems. The weight seems to be the biggest problem. Vet says she is very healthy. Tests, blood work, everything fine. She injured that knee and had to have the surgery. She does have arthritis in that joint now which they say is pretty normal after such surgery. She was overweight before surgery. She was always very active when given the chance to run. I think I just babied her after surgery because I know what it like to hurt when you walk because I had hip surgery. It does take a long time to get back the strength to walk without pain. I guess I'll have to be a little more forceful. I will really try to work hard at her getting some of those pounds off. Since everything else seems to be fine. I'll start there. Diet change (still looking for best food to change to.) Exercise, Exercise, Exercise. Good for both of us. Thanks again for you imput. You have raised some questions I never thought about. Well wish me luck (and Abby) we start walking today. I walk a mile in the morning but I won't push her to do that yet.
I'll let you know how it works out. (for both of us LOL)


Y

[UnderDog]

Originally Posted by rmd20004

hi thanks for the reply. I never heard of Orijen. Is the BARF diet all raw meats and Veggies? I will see about Orijen but not sure if I could deal with a raw meat diet if that is what BARF is.

Your suggestion about a strange place sounds like a good idea. Once we were on vacation in Fl. and were at a doggie park and she was off leash and would not run and play with the other dogs she just stayed by my side. So maybe that is a place to start. I just feel sorry for her after she walks because she seems in so much pain. I'll give it a try. Thanks

BARF = Biologically Appropriate Raw Food or Bones And Raw Food. Yes, it is raw meat/bones/veggies, if you don't want to handle the raw meats you can buy from specific BARF sellers, it comes in a small packet that just needs to be emptied into a bowl, couldn't be simpler. It also contains everything the dog needs to be sustained as it contains meat, organs and bones. :-D

[CorkyMax]

8 pounds frozen ground turkey (Get the 1 with the least amount of fat--check label!---Turkey fat is the worst (dense) kind!

5 pounds potatoes (Make sure you cut off all green parts of the skins-BAD for dogs, and us too1)

2 pounds frozen broccoli or cauliflower

2 cans kidney beans

2 cans lima beans ( I don't like all these beans or all the canned 'stuff' either. About 40% of nutrients are lost in cooking to start with and if you use canned---You are actually cooking it twice and then if you reheat this food later--That is 3 times!!!! Heat is what destroys the vitamins/nutrients!!! (1 reason I prefer raw food)

2 cans green beans (I'd use fresh, if you have a garden, otherwise frozen


Sorry about this gap, lol, not smart enough to fix it!!!










2 cans spinach (Use frozen)

1 can diced tomatoes

1 can sliced carrots (use fresh!)

1 42 ounce box of instant oatmeal

3 or 4 large cloves of garlic

3/4 cup canola oil (sounds like a lot to me!)

14 cups water

In a big pot, one that will hold at least 18 quarts, add the canola oil to the water and heat. While the water is heating, unwrap the frozen turkey and place the frozen meat in water. Then add the frozen and canned vegetables. Mince the garlic and stir it in.

Wash the potatoes and bake them in the microwave. I do two batches of two and a half pounds for about 18 minutes each on high as the other ingredients are heating. Chop the baked potatoes, skins and all, and add them to the mixture.

When everything comes to a boil, stir in the oatmeal. The mixture will be thick at this point and will require thorough stirring to get the oatmeal evenly distributed. Simmer on very low heat for fifteen minutes before turning off the heat. Spoon the mixture into smaller containers for refrigerator storage.

(Note: The 14 cups of water called for above may vary, depending on the quality of oatmeal used. I buy very cheap oatmeal. Other BML members who buy more expensive name brands find that they need to use more or less water. You may have to do some experimenting. The idea is to make a very thick stew, similar in consistency to commercial canned dog food.)




Here's what the finished product looks like. Notice the kidney beans and pieces of carrots, tomatoes, broccoli, green beans and potatoes. (GUESS THE PIC DIDN'T 'COME' THROUGH!!)

Boxers are usually given two meals a day, morning and evening. A typical Boxer will eat about three and a third cups (26.45 oz, 750 grams) of this stew at each meal. The old trial and error method is still the best way to determine just how much to feed.

I'm sometimes asked whether it would be better to use fresh vegetables in preference to the canned variety. Most canned foods have salt added and, as a result, are fairly high in sodium content. There's no doubt that fresh vegetables are preferable to canned from a strictly nutritional point of view. I use canned vegetables as a matter of practicality. I often eat canned vegetables myself and the same considerations apply.(I sure don't agree with all this canned stuff AND sounds to me like she knows better but too 'lazy' to do it right!!!) The bottom line is this: My Boxers and I are healthy.

As you can see---I don't agree with a lot here----But brought this recipe here to give you a 'base' to go by! There are a couple more recipes from this site--going to go copy and paste in the next 2 posts:arrow:----->

[CorkyMax]

The pressure Cooker Method


The pressure cooker may take some getting used to, but once one is comfortable with it, it's a terrific tool to use for preparing dog food. The standard stew I prepare for my dogs with it is based primarily upon chicken. The details below are not in the traditional recipe format, but they're easy to read and follow.

My pressure cooker is a large one. It was designed to be a canner, but canners are really nothing more than big pressure cookers. Mine's capacity is 21 quarts. There's enough room in it to hold three whole chickens and lots of other good things.



I begin cooking a week's supply of stew for my two Boxers by placing three whole frying chickens in the pressure cooker along with five pounds of whole, washed but not peeled russet potatoes, two or three large yams and about 6 cups of water. I use the word about in describing quantities because nothing is critical here. Since the chickens are frozen when I begin, I most often get the things just mentioned into the pressure cooker the night before I plan to cook. This gives the chickens time to thaw.



I light up the stove first thing in the morning. About forty minutes later, the pressure cooker has built up a head of steam at fifteen pounds per square inch. I keep it at that for somewhere between two and a half and three hours. When I turn off the heat, it takes a while for the pressure to drop to zero. I spend that time preparing the additional vegetables. I break up a head of cauliflower and a few stalks of broccoli. Then I open a big bag of frozen string beans and a box of chopped spinach. I choose these because members of the cabbage family have been shown to fight cancer and because these vegetables are usually priced reasonably. Just about any vegetables other than onions and those with tough outer surfaces like peas and corn can be used.



When the pressure cooker is ready to be opened, I turn the flame back on, at about medium heat, leaving the top off the cooker. Using a large potato masher, one designed for use in a restaurant kitchen, I quickly mash the chickens, yams and potatoes.



One of the pressure cooker's great advantages is that the chicken bones are cooked to a soft consistency similar to the bones in canned salmon. They may be eaten without danger.


When I finish mashing, I add the other vegetables and turn the heat up all the way as I stir them in. When the mix begins to boil, I stir in the contents of one 42 ounce box of instant oatmeal.



Then I lower the flame to its lowest setting and let the stew simmer for about half an hour. Then it's ready to be packed up and put away.

[CorkyMax]

Grainless Home Cooking
for Dogs with Allergies

Many, in fact most, dogs do very well with grain products as an important part of their diets. Some, however, do not. My Emily is one of those who do not. If you have a dog who often busies herself by chewing on her feet, it's likely that the itchy feet are an allergic reaction to grains in the dog's diet.

Here's a version of my pressure cooked food that contains no grain. How does it taste? To my taste buds, just like a chicken dinner with mashed potatoes and gravy with some vegetables along for the ride. My Boxers are crazy about the finished product.

Here's the recipe.

4 whole frying chickens
6 cups water

10 pounds of whole, washed, unpeeled potatoes
3 good size yams, washed but not peeled

1 head of cauliflower broken in small pieces
(or a package or two of frozen cauliflower)
3 stalks of fresh broccoli in small pieces
(or a couple of packages of frozen broccoli)
2 packages of frozen chopped string beans
1 package of chopped frozen spinach

Place the chickens and the water in the pressure cooker. I let the pot stand overnight to allow the chickens to thaw. Turn on the heat. When the pressure reaches 15 pounds per square inch, lower the heat just enough to maintain the pressure.

Cook the chickens for three hours. Then turn off the heat and carefully remove the pressure weight to allow the steam to escape quickly. When it's safe to open the pressure cooker, remove the top and thoroughly mash the chickens, bones and all with the heat on and set to its lowest point. Add the potatoes and yams to the pot. Replace the top and pressure weight and bring the pressure back up to 15 pounds. When it's there, lower the heat enough to maintain pressure and cook for fifteen minutes.

Turn off the heat and, when it's safe to do so, remove the top from the pressure cooker. Turn the heat back on at a low setting. Mash the potatoes and yams, mixing them with the previously mashed chicken. Stir in the cauliflower, broccoli, string beans and spinach. Simmer the mixture for fifteen or twenty minutes.

Then it's ready to be packed and put away.

[rmd20004]

Originally Posted by UnderDog

BARF = Biologically Appropriate Raw Food or Bones And Raw Food. Yes, it is raw meat/bones/veggies, if you don't want to handle the raw meats you can buy from specific BARF sellers, it comes in a small packet that just needs to be emptied into a bowl, couldn't be simpler. It also contains everything the dog needs to be sustained as it contains meat, organs and bones. :-D

I'm going to have to give this one some thought. I haven't ruled it out but would like to check into others before I change her food. Thanks I'll keep you posted.

I did get her to walk a little today so that is a step in the right direction for exercise. I will have to find some place where it is open so I can train her a little bit also. Thanks for the adivice. rmd

[CorkyMax]

Here's some further information on ingredients.

Meat:

Nearly any muscle tissue meat is fine. Dogs are crazy about organs like hearts and gizzards, but too much liver is not good. An animal's liver tends to store concentrated pollutants.

I used to buy frozen ground turkey for my dogs. When the price was low, I'd buy 8 or 10 cases and store it in my big freezer in the basement. I'd have bought fresh ground turkey if it were available, but, at least in this area, it isn't. Now and then I buy a package of chicken innards as a treat. If you eat meat, leftovers and table scraps are fine.

Two or three times a week, I give my Boxers a can of mackerel instead of their regular food.

Grains:

Bread, rice, wheat, oatmeal, barley, etc., are good choices, but bear in mind that more than a few dogs have grain allergies. Corn is more difficult for dogs to digest, in spite of the fact that large quantities of it are found in commercial foods, especially the cheaper ones. On average, 3 large slices of bread equal 1 cup of cooked grain. I used a combination of cooked oatmeal and whole grain bread. Day old bread keeps the price down, and the dogs think it's just fine. Leftover pasta works well too.

Vegetables:

Anything but onions will do. I've read that large amounts of onions appear to cause a type of anemia in dogs. I'm not sure how much is necessary to cause trouble, but I'd rather not take chances.

Supplements

Preparation:

My original method was to make a big pot of rice a couple of times a week and store it in plastic tubs in the refrigerator. I thawed four pounds of ground meat and a pound or two of vegetables at a time and stored them the same way. I used a pair of 2 cup Pyrex measuring cups as my main cooking utensils. Zapping the meat for two dogs takes just under 4 minutes in the microwave. It's done on the outside and red on the inside when it comes out, but stirring it immediately quickly browns all of it. Then I'd warm up the vegetables and rice and cool off the meat at the same time by mixing them all together along with the bread and supplements.

[rmd20004]

Wow, you've given me a lot to think about. All ideas seem good. I basically have all those ingrediances, maybe not in such quantity but you are feeding two dogs. I do not have a pressure pot, but I'm sure I can adapt with what I have. This seems like so much food after what I feed abby. Seems like I'm starving her or maybe it's not the amount of food but what I am feeding her. She loves all those veggies which she eats raw. I'll try a small batch at first but I bet she'll love it becuse that's basically what she eats not in addition to dry food. I have a lot of thinking to do.

Started with the walking today. Not very far but I made her go futher than she wanted to so I will increase a little each day. It takes forever because she won't move. We go a few feet at a time.

[rmd20004]

You've been so helpful. I really appreciate your time an effort with sending me these recipes. I think she is going to like them. Now you don't feed your boxers any dry dog food at all is that correct? I'm almost finished with the dry dog food I have to I really have to do somthing fast. Again thanks for your help. rmd

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by rmd20004

You've been so helpful. I really appreciate your time an effort with sending me these recipes. I think she is going to like them. Now you don't feed your boxers any dry dog food at all is that correct? I'm almost finished with the dry dog food I have to I really have to do somthing fast. Again thanks for your help. rmd

I was afraid you thought it was me with the boxers! Those recipes/articles I copied off the internet. I put a lot of comments with them but it is the other person who has the boxers and the recipes! I have 2 dogs--a cocker/golden retriever mix --Corky-age 11 and a pure cocker--Max (paxer)-age 10 (Can see them on my profile page in my album) And I do not feed them any commercial dog food of any kind--They wouldn't eat it even if I wanted to---which I sure wouldn't do--I'd feel like I was feeding them poison for all the crap that is in it and definitely no nutrition there to speak of either!

I also give them supplements. I give them fish oil capsules, Vitamin E (Note: If giving fish oil (and they need this) you have to give Vitamin E because the fish oil uses up V.E (depletes it) Give a multi-vitamin (Pet-vites from Puritan's Pride)---give CoQ10 and vitamin C. Have given selenium before, not now-I'm kind of 'iffy' on that. I give them Milk Thistle for one month out of a year. I'm thinking I should give V.D but haven't yet. I mix in a little crushed egg shells for calcium every so often. (1/4th tsp for every # of meat)

[UnderDog]

Out of interest, how is it possible to know the protein/fat/crude protein/ash/vitamin/mineral/enzyme content of these recipes except for WOE?

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by UnderDog

Out of interest, how is it possible to know the protein/fat/crude protein/ash/vitamin/mineral/enzyme content of these recipes except for WOE?

Just want you to know I am not ignoring your question---Just don't have time right now to come up with some info (and it 'ain't gonna be easy!) Will get back to you soon (maybe a day or two) In mean time maybe some other member can give you a good answer! Lol, I hope so as I am not good at explaining or understanding how to do this--But know it can be done!!

[rmd20004]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

I was afraid you thought it was me with the boxers! Those recipes/articles I copied off the internet. I put a lot of comments with them but it is the other person who has the boxers and the recipes! I have 2 dogs--a cocker/golden retriever mix --Corky-age 11 and a pure cocker--Max (paxer)-age 10 (Can see them on my profile page in my album) And I do not feed them any commercial dog food of any kind--They wouldn't eat it even if I wanted to---which I sure wouldn't do--I'd feel like I was feeding them poison for all the crap that is in it and definitely no nutrition there to speak of either!

I also give them supplements. I give them fish oil capsules, Vitamin E (Note: If giving fish oil (and they need this) you have to give Vitamin E because the fish oil uses up V.E (depletes it) Give a multi-vitamin (Pet-vites from Puritan's Pride)---give CoQ10 and vitamin C. Have given selenium before, not now-I'm kind of 'iffy' on that. I give them Milk Thistle for one month out of a year. I'm thinking I should give V.D but haven't yet. I mix in a little crushed egg shells for calcium every so often. (1/4th tsp for every # of meat)

Sorry about the mix up on the dog breed. I told you I don't know how all this works. LOL. Now I should have because I see the pics of your dogs. Talk about being in another world. Confusion about computer also complicates my questions about my dog. Wow this old mind needs to be updated and quickly LOL. thanks again.

[CorkyMax]

I am self-taught pretty much --also a 1-fingered typer but with being 'long-winded'---Bet I am about the fasted 1-fingered typer out there! It sounds like there are quite a few members that are in the same boat. Lol, must be the age factor. Took me a while to figure out some things in here but I'm in here so often---I have learned a few things in the process. You will too!

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

Just want you to know I am not ignoring your question---Just don't have time right now to come up with some info (and it 'ain't gonna be easy!) Will get back to you soon (maybe a day or two) In mean time maybe some other member can give you a good answer! Lol, I hope so as I am not good at explaining or understanding how to do this--But know it can be done!!

I may not be able to go into detail on the recipes but will find (little by little) some 'tidbits/food for thought that I will post for you. As far as those recipes I guess you would look up each ingredient for what you want to know as far as the fiber, vitamins and minerals go--the same way you would if you were dieting and needed to know this info--There are books out there (I have several) that tell you the carbs, protein, fat, fiber, calories, etc that is in each food.

For now here is something I got off the net: What are other natural sources of calcium, other than egg shells and the bones themselves, to supplement?

Personally I would stick with the eggshells, but I have heard people talking to their butcher/meat market and asking them to save bone "sawdust" from when they cut the meats down. This bone dust would be preferable to bonemeal because it would still be in its "raw" state. Eggshell powder can be made yourself, by saving the raw shells, drying and then running them through a coffee grinder. According to Pitcairn, there is 1,800 mgs. of calcium per teaspoon of eggshell powder. Bone Dust contains 8.74 % ash, (1/3 of which is calcium), 25.26 % fat, 13.42 % protein, and 52 % is water.

[CorkyMax]

How do I know what supplement is for what, should I decide to supplement?

B and C vitamins are water soluable, which means whatever the body does not use are eliminated in the urine. You basically cannot "overdo" the vitamins except too much can cause loose bowels (that's why you often see it recommended to supplement with Vitamin C "to bowel tolerance"). Vitamins A, D, E and K are fat soluable and it IS possible to cause problems by over-supplementing - sometimes the problems can be as bad if not worse than UNDER supplementation. According to Kymythy Schultze in her book, "The Ultimate Diet", she states:

"Alfalfa contains vitamins A, B1, B6, B12, C, D, E, K AND U, plus beta-carotene, niacin, pantothenic acid, biotin, folic acid, calcium, phosphorus, potassium, magnesium, iron, zinc, copper, protein, amino acids, trace elements and fiber. It reduces tissue damage from radiotherapy, helps bleeding disorders, has antibacterial action against salmonella and has a protein with known anti-tumor activity. It's used as a general tonic, to detoxify the body and to treat colon disorders, hemorrhages, diabetes, ulcers and arthritis. Use the alfalfa leaf and stem in powdered or liquid form. Do not use alfalfa seeds as they contain a natural toxin.

Kelp contains vitamins A, B1, B3, B5, B6, B9, B12, C and E, plus zinc, viotin, bromine, calcium, choline, copper, inositol, iodine, PABA, potassium, selenium, sodium and sulfur. Its iodine content is very good for glands and organs, especially the thyroid and liver. It can bind with chemical pollutants in the gastrointestinal tract and prevent their absorption by the body. It increases the contractile force of the heart, improves circulation and is often used for hair loss, goiter, ulcers, obesity and mineral deficiency. Equal parts of alfalfa and kelp in your dog's or cat's food provides a vast array of health-enhancing nutrients as a complete vitamin and mineral supplement.

Other green foods you may use include algae (chlorella, spirulina, blue-green), aloe vera, grasses and sea greens. Since these are plants, they should be fed to carnivores in fairly small amounts, proportionately"

Raw meat, fish and eggs provide an array of amino acids/protein, enzymes, antioxidants, Vitamins A, C, D, E, K, B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, B12, biotin, choline, folic acid, inositol, iodine, pantothenic acid, paba, fatty acids, caldium, phosphorus, magnesium, iron, potassium, chromium, copper, manganese, selenium, sodium, sulfur, vanadium, zinc and CoQ10 (see pg 26 of "The Ultimate Diet").

Raw veggies provide enzymes, antioxidants, betacarotene, carbohydrates, fiber, phytochemicals, Vitamins A, B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, C, D, E, K, boron, choline, folic acid, inositol, iodine, paba, pantothenic acid, calcium, chromium, copper, iron, iodine, magnesium, manganese, molybdenum, phosphorus, potassium, silicon, sodium, sulfur and selenium.

Many of us are of the opinion that our dogs, who are healthy, get the vitamins they need from the varied diet they are fed. Many BARFers supplement and many do not. Again, the choice is yours.

[CorkyMax]

What is Ester C and bowel tolerance?

Ester C is a buffered form of Vitamin C, which is easier on the stomach than other C's (ascorbic acid). If you decide to use Ester C or any of the other buffered form of C (calcium ascorbate or sodium ascorbate), you will be able to provide a much higher dosage than you would with ascorbic acid. If you are providing a buffered form of C, you might want to start out with 500 mg and increase the dosage (splitting the dosage to twice per day) until you determine the bowel tolerance. From that point, you can then determine how much C you want to offer per day.

As you are upping the daily dosage of C and you notice that your dog's stools are becoming a bit loose, then you have reached Bowel Tolerance. Any higher dosage will cause loose/watery stools, and even diarrhea.

Vitamin C is an immune booster and can be given daily. You can also UP the amount of Vitamin C during times of stress.

What is the bone to meat ratio?

Ideally, it is anywhere from 1:1 to 2:1 calcium;phosphorus (bone/eggshell to meat)

[CorkyMax]

Do I have to feed a completely balanced meal every day?

Absolutely NOT! The thing to remember is that you are aiming for balance over time. You don't need to feed your dog a completely balanced meal every meal, or even every day. It's balance over time (3 weeks to a month), NOT every meal, that counts! This is the reason for feeding a variety of foods.

[rmd20004]

Wow, I sure have a lot to learn. First I'll worry about the food then all the other good little things you have mentioned. You're making my old brain go in circles lol.