[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Todd

you're right. we cannot completely blame the pet industry, but I believe that they are defiantly a contributing factor. I think it also comes down to flat ignorance or lack of pet knowledge on the part of whomever' coming up with these state laws.

I agree, but does that not fall on the back of pet owners failing to deal with their legislature regarding these laws. That is what Kris Kristine is calling for and advocating. It is comfortable from the recliner to call the game but would it be more advantages to be on the sideline where ones voice can actually be heard.
We are just as much to blame for this issue as the pet industry and state laws as we have a voice but have failed to use it.

[Woolsy]

Thanks Todd for addressing my question. I do agree that dogs must only have vaccination while they are still a pup. Why would they need another vaccination if the body is already immunized from that disease. I guess the vets or the producers of the vaccines just need more money from dog-owners.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Woolsy

Thanks Todd for addressing my question. I do agree that dogs must only have vaccination while they are still a pup. Why would they need another vaccination if the body is already immunized from that disease. I guess the vets or the producers of the vaccines just need more money from dog-owners.

Again, this is not necessarily accurate to blame the veterinary industry of the makers of the vaccines. Each state and within states, the counties as well as cities have their own laws that dog owners must abide by. In these there are vaccines required by law that your dog must have at certain intervals. To assume that Vets and Vaccines makers are the ones initiating this is assuming that they have far more power than they actually have when it comes to this. If this was the case than why is it that Kris Kristine's campaign to get Rabies vaccination laws changed in states succeeding. Many vets are not in favor of excessive vaccinating of dogs but have to comply with laws in their area the same way dog owners do. It is unfortunate but until people express their concerns to their state legislature, blaming vets and the makers of the vaccines does nothing. We need to look at ourselves as we are the ones who can change the laws.
Just another note, I discussed the issues of vaccinations after age 1 with my vet some years ago. He attends several Veterinary seminars a year and told me that this is a constant subject at these seminars and the primary issue concerns the vets not wanting to comply with the vaccines schedules as they agree that in most cases they are not needed and only hinder the immune system in mature dogs. But unfortunately, they have to comply with the laws or chance losing their license. It is not their choice but he wishes it was.

[lulusmom]

I agree wholeheartedly with Yogi on this matter. We are our pets only voice so make it heard. I would also like to mention that while a good many vets are merely complying with the law, there are some that refuse to adopt the new vaccine guidelines, regardless of vaccine guidelines adopted by their state of domicile. Make sure you know the laws in your state, county and/or city. If they have not adopted the new guidelines, see if they will accept a titer. This is especially important if your pet has an immunocompromised condition and a lot of regulatory agencies will accept a waiver from your vet. I have two dogs with endocrine disorders and their internal medicine specialist said no more vaccines and happily provides me with a waiver. Luckily it was accepted by our county agency; however, if they had not, I would have become a rogue pet owner who would pay fines or go into hiding before putting my dogs at great risk. We had a general practitioner vet that provided concurrent care for my dogs but refused to deviate from their annual vaccine guidelines, stating that it was a matter of liability. I said bull puckey and bah bye. We've never stepped foot in that office again.

[Todd]

I understand wht you guys are saying, however the vets I've been to over the years have always been the type of vets who vaccinate every year (booster). State laws here in Ohio, where I am from, only mandate rabies vaccines up to date. Beside the rabies vaccine, my vets believe in vaccinating (boosters) every year. They don't seem very educated on vaccines. Again, these are the verts that I have come across. All vets are obviously different.

[Woolsy]

Yogi and lulusmom have great points. So if we can make the laws then why can't we make the vaccinations less.

Each state or region have different laws but do you think that the dogs in the areas where vaccinations are constantly required are healthier than those dogs in the areas where vaccinations are only given as needed? Kris Kristine's campaign could be good but what I'm thinking is the natural way of dog's immune system. The dogs have survived for many years as our companion without any vaccinations. So why are we (or the lawmakers specifically) so concerned about it now?

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Woolsy

Yogi and lulusmom have great points. So if we can make the laws then why can't we make the vaccinations less.

Each state or region have different laws but do you think that the dogs in the areas where vaccinations are constantly required are healthier than those dogs in the areas where vaccinations are only given as needed? Kris Kristine's campaign could be good but what I'm thinking is the natural way of dog's immune system. The dogs have survived for many years as our companion without any vaccinations. So why are we (or the lawmakers specifically) so concerned about it now?

I can tell you from a great deal of experience based on the number of dogs I have owned over the years that mine outside of the original puppy booster and first rabies vacs, do not get boosters or anymore rabies vacs and have lived in most cases beyond their breed lifetime. None have ever succumbed to a disease. Some of my rescues have come to me with more common issues such as epilepsy, arthritis etc. but none have ever has issues with anything that a vaccination was created for.

[Lara's mom]

As I read this thread, I can't help but think of my friends dog Taffy who died for want of a leptospirosis vaccination. Two other dogs had to be euthanized because of kidney and liver damage as a result of this disease.

Currently, there is an epidemic of distemper where I live. I wonder how many unvaccinated dogs will lose their lives to this disease and how their parents will feel knowing that these deaths could have been prevented.

Someone I correspond with from the southern part of the U.S. told me not long ago that heartworm kills roughly half of the dogs in her area. I find that appalling and unforgivable, particularly since heartworm didn't even exist in Canada until tourists and their dogs who live in areas where it is prevalent brought it here.

I understand that it is everyone's right to do with their dog as they see fit but, what about the rights of my dogs? Do they not have the right to not be put in potential danger because your dogs aren't vaccinated? Nobody has addressed this yet so, I thought I'd "throw it out there." I'm not trying to be deliberately obstinate. I'm genuinely interested in other members opinions as to where one persons rights end and another's begin with regard to this topic.

The outbreak of leptospirosis that killed my friends dog and two others really started me thinking very seriously about this whole subject. Neither of my girls were vaccinated against this disease at the time (I didn't have Lance yet). One or both of them could have caught it. I could have lost them both. If I lost one of my precious babies to a disease that I could have prevented, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

As I read this thread, I can't help but think of my friends dog Taffy who died for want of a leptospirosis vaccination. Two other dogs had to be euthanized because of kidney and liver damage as a result of this disease.

Currently, there is an epidemic of distemper where I live. I wonder how many unvaccinated dogs will lose their lives to this disease and how their parents will feel knowing that these deaths could have been prevented.

Someone I correspond with from the southern part of the U.S. told me not long ago that heartworm kills roughly half of the dogs in her area. I find that appalling and unforgivable, particularly since heartworm didn't even exist in Canada until tourists and their dogs who live in areas where it is prevalent brought it here.

I understand that it is everyone's right to do with their dog as they see fit but, what about the rights of my dogs? Do they not have the right to not be put in potential danger because your dogs aren't vaccinated? Nobody has addressed this yet so, I thought I'd "throw it out there." I'm not trying to be deliberately obstinate. I'm genuinely interested in other members opinions as to where one persons rights end and another's begin with regard to this topic.

The outbreak of leptospirosis that killed my friends dog and two others really started me thinking very seriously about this whole subject. Neither of my girls were vaccinated against this disease at the time (I didn't have Lance yet). One or both of them could have caught it. I could have lost them both. If I lost one of my precious babies to a disease that I could have prevented, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself.

To note, if you look back my pups are vaccinated for lepto.....

[Todd]

My old cat I use to have got VERY VERY sick after getting her annual vaccinations and almost died because of it. She had to be put on steroids and everything. We had to feed her pureed food and tuna broth all day for about a month until she finally pulled out of it. She died about a year later at 17. Vaccines aren't worth the risk. Be smart. Vaccinate puppies and use titers every 3 years thereafter.

[arcticwolfe]

my dogs 3 years old and she hasnt had her shots. shes perfectly healthy. last summer i got a dog that was vaccinated against parvo and others and yet she died a month after i got her. im very protective of my pets so i will only have them vaccinated if theirs a high likelihood of them getting some disease. thanks for posting this!

[Todd]

Originally Posted by arcticwolfe

my dogs 3 years old and she hasn't had her shots. shes perfectly healthy. last summer i got a dog that was vaccinated against parvo and others and yet she died a month after i got her. im very protective of my pets so i will only have them vaccinated if theirs a high likelihood of them getting some disease. thanks for posting this!

Did you get your dog vaccinated as a puppy? sometimes it's necessary to get your dog vaccinated initially as a puppy for their original immunity or at least a titer, although some studies say that pups get their immunity from their mother's milk, however that immunity leaves the pup soon after it stops nursing. The problem with vaccines in dogs isn't so much their components or their purpose, but their over-usage. I'd get the pup vaccinated then titers every three years thereafter. I got Lucky vaccinated as a pup and haven't vaccinted since. She is almost 3. I'll probably have some titer blood tests done either this year or maybe even next year to see what her immunity levels look like.

Titer Testing: a Simple Blood Test
Enlightened veterinarians and pet parents have become increasingly wary of the health risks, and lack of benefits, associated with repeatedly vaccinating dogs after their initial “puppy shots.” Is titer testing the solution to the over-vaccination problem? Here’s a crash course to help you muddle through the mire of misinformation surrounding this simple blood test, and to help you decide whether or not to test your dog’s antibody titers.

What is titer testing? A titer test (pronounced TIGHT er) is a laboratory test measuring the existence and level of antibodies to disease in blood. Antibodies are produced when an antigen (like a virus or bacteria) provokes a response from the immune system. This response can come from natural exposure or from vaccination. (Note: titering is also called serum vaccine antibody titering and serologic vaccine titering.)

How is the test performed? Your test result will have an explanation of what your pet’s test result means. But if you want to know more, here’s the test in a nutshell: First, one mL of blood is drawn. The sample is then diluted. Titer levels, expressed as ratios, indicate how many times blood can be diluted before no antibodies are detected. If blood can be diluted a 1000 times and still show antibodies, the ratio would be 1:1000. This is a “strong” titer. A titer of 1:2 would be weak.

Should I test for all diseases? The most recommended test examines antibodies for both parvovirus and distemper, the two most important viruses. Rabies titers are also often tested. Usually, for most dogs, tests for other diseases are generally not considered useful or necessary.
Why test? The parvovirus/distemper test can help you or others (vets, groomers, kennel owners, etc.) determine if your dog requires additional vaccination, and may save your dog unnecessary shots. It is especially useful when making a decision about vaccinating an animal with unknown vaccination history, or for determining if puppies have received immunity from vaccination (more below).

Most experts believe strong titers are a more reliable indication of immunity than vaccination: tests show the actual immune response, not just the attempt to cause an immune response by vaccination. Do not expect, however, that everyone will accept test results in place of proof of vaccination.The subject of immunity is complicated, and we are programmed to think of vaccination as “the gold standard” — the more, the better. Experts who challenge the status quo are often maligned. Humans don’t like change.

How often should I test titers for parvo and distemper? You’re going to have to decide for yourself. Some vets recommend testing yearly, but this can be expensive. Others test every three years. Still others test five to seven years after vaccination. Why? Challenge tests show that successful vaccination against parvovirus gives most animals at least seven years of immunity. Distemper provides immunity for at least five to seven years.*

Dr. Ron Schultz, one of the most renowned pet vaccination experts in the country, believes that once a test yields strong titers, you need not test again. In Dr. Jean Dodd’s article on vaccine reactions, she quotes Dr. Schultz on the value of testing titers: “an animal with a positive test has sterilizing immunity and should be protected from infection. If that animal were vaccinated it would not respond with a significant increase in antibody titer, but may develop a hypersensitivity to vaccine components (e.g. fetal bovine serum).”
Does a weak titer mean that the dog needs a “booster” shot? Maybe not for dogs that have previously shown strong titers. Many experts, including Dr. Schultz, say the dog’s immune system will have produced “memory cells” that will produce antibodies when they’re needed. Think of memory cells as reserve forces. When known foreigners invade, they remember how to attack them. Dr. Shultz has said, “show that an animal with a positive test has sterilizing immunity and should be protected from infection. If that animal were vaccinated it would not respond with a significant increase in antibody titer, but may develop a hypersensitivity to vaccine components (e.g. fetal bovine serum).Read more about memory cells here. Read pages 5-6 of Antibody Titers vs Annual Vaccination by Richard Ford, DVM for more information.

Should I test my puppy? Yes! If so, when? Ideally, puppies should have had their last vaccination after 16 weeks of age then should be tested to see if further vaccination is necessary. There’s an excellent discussion about testing puppies in the 2006 American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) Canine Vaccine Task Force Report (page 13) entitled What Are The Possible Applications of Serologic Testing? It reads, “Such titer testing is the only way to ensure that a puppy has developed an immune response after vaccinating.”
What do titer tests cost? Testing costs vary widely from practice to practice, so shop around. Some vets do in-house testing. Others use outside labs. Some mark up tests and services a little; others, a lot. You should be able to have parvo/distemper tests done most places for less than $100. Rabies tests, on the other hand, can cost considerably more, in large part because they are sent overnight to a lab. (Ask your vet to have a Titer Testing Day so that they can send multiple tests in one package and save considerably on shipping costs.) Consider contacting Hemopet, Dr. Jean Dodd’s nonprofit organization, for their pricing and her excellent reading of results. When comparative shopping, make sure pricing includes blood draw and shipping.

Wait! Before jumping to the conclusion that vaccinating is much cheaper than testing, remember that testing can be a one-time (or at least rare) expense and is no riskier than any simple blood draw. Vaccinating, on the other hand, can potentially cause a lifetime of illness.

Should I test for rabies antibodies? The rabies titer test will give you an indication of your dog’s immunity if he or she is at particular risk for contracting rabies. It may also be required prior to international travel. Test results will NOT be accepted by Animal Control and most others as a substitute for vaccination of healthy dogs as required by law.

If your dog has documented health problems or documented adverse reactions to shots, your vet may be able to get your dog an exemption to rabies vaccination. (Learn more at The Rabies Vaccine for Dogs: Side Effects and Precautions You Can Take.) A rabies titer test is not usually necessary when requesting an exemption but may be useful when re-applying for a denied exemption. It may also give you and others piece of mind if you’re contemplating an exemption.

(Note: a French challenge study has shown rabies vaccination gives immunity for at least five years. In the U.S, the Rabies Challenge Fund is doing concurrent tests for five years and seven years to extend the period between shots. This important nonprofit study is funded solely by donations from dog lovers like you.)

Can I test titers immediately after vaccinating? To get an accurate test, you must wait at least 14 days after vaccination before testing.
What if your vet, groomer, spouse, best friend, kennel owner or day care proprietor says titer testing is “voodoo science,” that your dog needs continued vaccination even if testing indicates otherwise? Know that vets out of school longer than 10 years received little or no immunology or vaccinology training in school; they shouldn’t be considered experts unless they’ve devoted hundreds of hours to research and training. Others who want to influence you may have no training at all and may be acting out of fear. Do your own research and advocate for your dog.

I hope I’ve given you enough information to make reasoned decisions. The subject is hardly black and white; it is riddled with shades of gray. I’d like to thank veterinary crusaders against over-vaccination Drs. Margo Roman and Tamara Hebbler for their help with this article, and Drs. Jean Dodds and Patricia Jordan for answering my many questions about vaccination over the years.

YouTube- Puppy and dog vaccination information

YouTube- Puppy and dog vaccination information

[Todd]

Sorry to ramble on, but here are some interesting quotes I found online regarding vaccines and our pets;

Dr. Phillips and Dr. Schultz

"The practice of annual vaccination in our opinion should be considered of questionable efficacy unless it is used as a mechanism to provide an annual physical examination."

Dr. Charles Loops D.V.M.

"The first thing that must change is the myth that vaccines are harmless. Veterinarians and animal guardians have to realise that they are not protecting animals from disease by annual vaccinations, but in fact, are destroying the health and immune systems of these same animals they love and care for."

Dr. Christina Chambreau D.V.M. agrees:

"Routine vaccinations are probably the worst thing that we do for our animals. They cause all types of illnesses. Repeating vaccinations on a yearly basis undermines the whole energetic well-being of our animals. Veterinary immunologists tell us that vaccines need only be given once or twice in an animal's life. First, there is no need for annual vaccinations and, second, they definitely cause chronic disease."

Dr. Roger DeHaan D.V.M. has this to say:

"We have been destroying the immune system. Over the years it has become increasingly clear that some vaccines are ineffectual or unnecessary, and some vaccines are dangerous, even causing symptoms of the disease they are supposed to prevent."

Listen to what Dr. Pedro Rivera D.V.M. says about vaccines causing chronic disease:

"Vaccinosis is the reaction from common innoculations. Reactions might take months or years to show up. In our practice, we've seen hypothyroidism, ear infections, immune-system diseases, joint maladies, and behavioral problems as reactions to over-vaccination."

Dr. Charles Loops D.V.M. says:

"Vaccinations represent a major assault on the immune system, [which] causes irregularities and abnormalities in the immune system, which then manifests as chronic diseases [ranging from] life-threatening conditions such as auto-immune crises to conditions destroying the quality of life of an animal, as in chronic skin allergies. What we are now seeing are generations of over-vaccinated animals."

Dr. Pat Bradley D.V.M. observes:

"The most common problems I see that are directly related to vaccines on a day to day basis are ear or skin conditions, such as chronic discharges and itching. I also see behavior problems such as fearfulness or aggression. Often guardians will report that these begin shortly after vaccination, and are exacerbated with every vaccine. In a more general and frightening context, I see the overall health and longevity of animals deteriorating."

The AVMA Journal (#208, 1996) says: "There is no scientific data to support a recommendation for annual administration of vaccines. Furthermore, repeated administration of vaccines may be associated with a higher risk of anaphylaxis and autoimmune diseases."

In the same issue:

"There is little scientific documentation that backs up label claims for annual administration of most vaccines. In the past, it was believed that annual vaccination would not hurt and would probably help most animals. However concerns about side effects have begun to change this attitude. The client is paying for something with no effect or with the potential for an adverse reaction."