[Mr. Vega]

Oh, as if a dog's breath didn't already smell bad enough...


J/K Thanks for posting these. For flea/tick prevention, I'm always open to some of the more alternative methods. It's the heartworm prevention that I don't mess around with. I'm still pretty active on VIN (it's like a forum where only veterinarians and students can post so they can ask difficult questions about cases and get information from specialists and such) so I'll post some of this stuff through there and see if anyone's ever tried any of this. There are a few alternative medicine vets that do some regular posting there.

[CorkyMax]

Pennyroyal, Dogs and Fleas
Answered by: Kerry Hackett
Question from: Terry Arnold
Posted on: May 01, 2007

I have a problem with fleas and have tried just about everything on the market. I have three dogs and moved into a home that had been infested with fleas. I have been told that the pennyroyal plant will help to eliminate the fleas. Do you agree or do you have any other sugestions?

Please see the postings on this website (Richters Herbs - Medicinal, Culinary, Aromatic - Plants & Seeds) entitled, "Animals and Fleas", "Flea Repellent", "Fleas and Lemon Juice", Fleas on Dogs and in the House" and "Garden Herbs to Help with Fleas".

In addition, I do not advise the use of pennyroyal due to the following reasons:

1. Pennyroyal is toxic to cats (Schoen and Wynn, 1998)

2. Pennyroyal is toxic to dogs at high doses (Sudekum et al, 1992)

3. Because of its abortafacient properties, pennyroyal should not be administered to pregnant animals (Spoerke, 1990) Neither should it be used on lactating animals.

4. Pennyroyal should not be used in animals with existing kidney disease. (Schoen and Wynn, 1998)

5. As little as 4ml of pennyroyal oil has caused convusions in adult human subjects. Larger dosages can cause even greater problems. (Spoerke, 1990)

6. An infusion of dried pennyroyal leaves have been used as a stimulant, carminative and diaphoretic (Coon, 1979) but its toxicity may overshadow any therapeutic use.

7. Pennyroyal contains 2% volatile oil made up of 85% ketone and pulegone (Tyler 1993). Volatile oils are toxic to cats and dogs; see points 1 and 2 above.

8. Because of its toxic nature and the availability of other, milder bitter tonics, many herbalists recommend that pennyroyal be used only topically, with great caution. (Schoen and Wynn, 1998)

9. Although Ms Bairacli-Levy in her book "The Complete Herbal Handbook for the Dog and Cat" mentions (p. 155) the use of pennyroyal in powdered form on dogs before "mosquito-time", she does not advocate the use of pennyroyal flea collars ("... they would have to be renewed frequently to be effective."). Further in her book, "Cats Naturally", the use of pennyroyal is never mentioned beyond flea collars for which she says much the same as above (p. 76). She does however, talk of using Pennyroyal in powdered form on the carpet where it is brushed out after an hour.

Originally Posted by Mr. Vega

Oh, as if a dog's breath didn't already smell bad enough...


J/K Thanks for posting these. For flea/tick prevention, I'm always open to some of the more alternative methods. It's the heartworm prevention that I don't mess around with. I'm still pretty active on VIN (it's like a forum where only veterinarians and students can post so they can ask difficult questions about cases and get information from specialists and such) so I'll post some of this stuff through there and see if anyone's ever tried any of this. There are a few alternative medicine vets that do some regular posting there.

Thanks, Mr. Vega--sounds like a good place to get some answers! Will be looking forward to see your next posting on this subject.

[CorkyMax]

This is 'old' but still applies:

To Flea Or Not To Flea
written by Marina Zacharias
Good Grief!! What are they going to come up with next?

Ciby-Geigy has launched a massive promotional campaign on a new "flea control" pill that they call "Program." Now you don't have to bother spraying poison on your carpets anymore, just pop a poison pill into your animal once a month and the animal will deliver the poison from its own blood directly to the flea!!

If I had to give an award to the "stupidest" product of the month, this one would win hands down.

Just how is it supposed to work? The pill contains a chemical called LUFENURON that prevents flea eggs from hatching or larvae from developing. So hopefully, after every flea in the house has taken a good bit out of your animal, ingested the poisoned blood, and laid infertile eggs -- you've "broken the cycle" and no more flea problem. (No Charlie, it's not a repellent. If your animal has a flea allergy, it will still have to suffer the bite so that the product can work).

Of course, as long as you continue to administer the pill, any new fleas from the outside would meet with the same fate. So once a month (forever) just give her a new dose and keep her in shape to continually deliver poison through her blood stream to prevent flea infestation.

Ciby-Geigy states in its' brochure that "PROGRAM" is well accepted and can be given to young, old and pregnant animals. In the product test literature it is reported that PROGRAM was given to nine beagles at 90x the recommended dose. Only six of the nine conceived. This is a conception rate of 67%!! In the same test eight beagles not on "PROGRAM" were bred and 100% conceived.

So how can they claim it is safe? Evidently the product has not killed any animals and therefore is deemed "safe!!"

Carol Scott Bardwick (Canine Cryobank, Inc.), a well known reproduction specialist, has issued a "warning" bulletin on this product and its effects on both male and female reproductive problems.

You should also be aware that puppies born to dams on the drug on the 90x study, had nasal discharge, respiratory congestion, dehydration / diarrhea, lethargy -- (sounds almost like Parvo, doesn't it) -- conditions which improved after the pups were weaned. Evidently the drug "lufenuron" concentrates in the dam's milk SIXTY TIMES more than in the dam's blood!!

This is one program you do not want to join!!!

[CorkyMax]

Natural Flea Prevention Ideas for Dogs - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

Flea and Tick Treatments: Are You Poisoning Your Pet? - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

Adams Spot-On Flea and Tick Control - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com


Ridding Your Home and Pets of Fleas - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

Control Fleas Naturally with Safe, Common Household Items - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com I especially like this article!

Natural Flea Control for Cats and Dogs - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by Mr. Vega

Oh, as if a dog's breath didn't already smell bad enough...


J/K Thanks for posting these. For flea/tick prevention, I'm always open to some of the more alternative methods. It's the heartworm prevention that I don't mess around with. I'm still pretty active on VIN (it's like a forum where only veterinarians and students can post so they can ask difficult questions about cases and get information from specialists and such) so I'll post some of this stuff through there and see if anyone's ever tried any of this. There are a few alternative medicine vets that do some regular posting there.

Mr. Vega:
Here is a comment that I have heard/seen more than once! What do you and other VIN members have to offer on this comment:
Heartworm medication (once-a-month preventives) can be given every 6 weeks instead of every 4 weeks. The manufacturers publish that the medication is effective for at least 45 days, despite recommending 30 day use.----> If you ask your Vet about this, they will agree.<---- They and the drug companies make more money if you administer the medication every 30 days.

This would at the very least cut down on the amount of poison you were feeding your dog, not to mention saving a little money too!

[Mr. Vega]

I will never recommend a 45 day protocol for 2 reasons:

First - Client compliance is a huge, huge issue. There are tons of owners that want to give it every 30 days but they just forget and go like 2 or even 3 months before they remember. 30 days is easier for people to remember (just give it same day of the month, every month). I can just see the disaster that 45 days would cause even if that was an acceptable time to give it.

Second (and probably more important) - When a mosquito deposits infective L3 larvae into a dog, those larvae will become L4s within 3 to 12 days. Somewhere between 45ish and 70ish days, those L4s will become L5. L5 larvae are considered immature adults.

So, here's the scoop: your monthly heartworm prevention has a label for L3, L4, and very early L5s (although this is an area of debate in some circles). So, if everything goes according to plan and the heartworm larvae in your dog have read all of the textbooks and they're behaving very nice, a 45 day protocol might work and you may never have any problems. Unfortunately, some of these guys didn't read the book and don't behave very well. Research (much of it done right here at my school i'm happy to say) has shown that sometimes, late L4 and early L5 larvae will make their way into the veins much sooner than their supposed to. These guys will find their way into the pulmonary vasculature. They wiggle their way deep into those capillary beds of the lungs and just sit and mature. These larvae are NOT affected by any of the current heartworm prevention drugs. Once they become adults, they find their way back out and travel back down to the heart and set up shop. THIS is why I will never put my dog or any dog under my care on a 45 day prevention plan. At 45 days instead of 30, you would reduce the number of treatments given from 12 to 8. Over the course of 3 years, you would have saved a year's worth of product. That would never make it worth the risk for me.

[CorkyMax]

Thanks for the info, Mr. Vega. Makes sense! Just wanted to clarify that I was more interested in 'saving the dog' then saving the money----saving the dog from so much poison over time. Damned if you do and damned if you don't applies I guess. What would you suggest for the dogs/breeds--like the collie for one--that can't handle the ivermectin?

[angiesample]

I use Revolution on my Ella and i have never had a problem.. Although i would consider a natural remedy for fleas i just wouldnt even consider that for a heartworm preventative. My aunts dog had heartworms really bad and her dog didnt end up making it. Not only that the last few months of the dogs life was just horrible! I just couldnt risk it not after seeing that. But my dog is around a lot of other dogs on a daily basis and u can never be sure who keeps there animals up to date on there shots and everything.

[Todd]

Barb (and who ever else is interested in natural flea control),

are you farmiliar with DDT? It was a harmful chemical that used to be spread all around years ago to kill insects. It was soon banned. It did in fact kill the insects but it also killed many animals and cause many human healthy problems as well. I actually remember learning about this in school. Rachiel Carson wrote a book about it and it was soon banned. She actually died on cancer 2 years after publishing the book and attributed her cancer to the DDT.

This reminds me a lot of commercial, traditional flea control. It does in fact kill the fleas, but what harm is it doing to the animal it's applied on???

[Mr. Vega]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

Thanks for the info, Mr. Vega. Makes sense! Just wanted to clarify that I was more interested in 'saving the dog' then saving the money----saving the dog from so much poison over time. Damned if you do and damned if you don't applies I guess. What would you suggest for the dogs/breeds--like the collie for one--that can't handle the ivermectin?

Usually we don't get too worked up over the prevention stuff. If I remember it all correctly, the normal dose in the preventatives is 6 mcg/kg. Toxicity is usually never seen until you get up to a dose of like 75ish mcg/kg.

Most of the scares with the ivermectin breeds stems from the injectable ivermectin that's been used to treat heartworm disease.

Still, though, if you were at all concerned you could just use milbemycin oxime (interceptor) or milbemycin oxime + lufenuron (sentinel). I'd think that even selemectin (Revolution) would be safer than just straight ivermectin (which is pretty much just what heartgard is.)

Originally Posted by Todd

Barb (and who ever else is interested in natural flea control),

are you farmiliar with DDT? It was a harmful chemical that used to be spread all around years ago to kill insects. It was soon banned. It did in fact kill the insects but it also killed many animals and cause many human healthy problems as well. I actually remember learning about this in school. Rachiel Carson wrote a book about it and it was soon banned. She actually died on cancer 2 years after publishing the book and attributed her cancer to the DDT.

This reminds me a lot of commercial, traditional flea control. It does in fact kill the fleas, but what harm is it doing to the animal it's applied on???

That's definitely a valid concern Todd. Who wouldn't want to learn from past mistakes? However, products that make it onto the market today have to go through many, many years of testing before they're approved. From the time a particular molecule is discovered or created, it takes approximately 10 years for it to make it though all the trials and approvals. The DDT stuff was reckless introduction with very little preliminary testing. There's no 100% guarantee that our flea prevention isn't harmful, but, nothing has shown that it is so far. I sure hope it isn't...

[Yogi]

"That's definitely a valid concern Todd. Who wouldn't want to learn from past mistakes? However, products that make it onto the market today have to go through many, many years of testing before they're approved. From the time a particular molecule is discovered or created, it takes approximately 10 years for it to make it though all the trials and approvals. The DDT stuff was reckless introduction with very little preliminary testing. There's no 100% guarantee that our flea prevention isn't harmful, but, nothing has shown that it is so far. I sure hope it isn't..."

I have to agree, the only issue I have ever seen or heard of regarding today's flea treatment have been an allergic reaction to the skin area. In that case the it was discovered when the owner put a small bit of water in the area commonly noted for the flea treatment. There was no reaction, yet when she applied the flea treatment the dog had a skin reaction. Granted it cleared up in a couple days but this is the extent of any issues I have heard of. In addition, as you noted todays treatments go through a battery of testing that does in fact take many years before approved and in no way can be associated with the DDT's of the past where there was no real follow up or thought to prevention with regards to health issues the product may cause in other species. To assume that chemicals today are in anyway a resemblance of the past falsehood in thinking. They are not the same or even close to, when it comes to the regards to health.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

"That's definitely a valid concern Todd. Who wouldn't want to learn from past mistakes? However, products that make it onto the market today have to go through many, many years of testing before they're approved. From the time a particular molecule is discovered or created, it takes approximately 10 years for it to make it though all the trials and approvals. The DDT stuff was reckless introduction with very little preliminary testing. There's no 100% guarantee that our flea prevention isn't harmful, but, nothing has shown that it is so far. I sure hope it isn't..."

I have to agree, the only issue I have ever seen or heard of regarding today's flea treatment have been an allergic reaction to the skin area. In that case the it was discovered when the owner put a small bit of water in the area commonly noted for the flea treatment. There was no reaction, yet when she applied the flea treatment the dog had a skin reaction. Granted it cleared up in a couple days but this is the extent of any issues I have heard of. In addition, as you noted todays treatments go through a battery of testing that does in fact take many years before approved and in no way can be associated with the DDT's of the past where there was no real follow up or thought to prevention with regards to health issues the product may cause in other species. To assume that chemicals today are in anyway a resemblance of the past falsehood in thinking. They are not the same or even close to, when it comes to the regards to health.

I'm not saying that the DDT stuff is on the same level as flea control, I'm just saying the basic concept is rather similar. I know my dog doesn't do well with most flea treatment. I have tried many different brands in the past and all have made her very lathargic. I decide the safest way to go for Lucky in natural treatment which I will be using from her on out. I understand what you are saying though.

[CorkyMax]

Yeh! I remember the DDT very well! Use to go to town on Saturday nights as a kid and would have to walk to my aunt's place (where my parents and the aunt and uncle would be playing 'Rook' (card game) after going to the theatre. Why it was that particular time I don't know but the trucks would be out spraying (in town) and it was suppose to be 'safe' to be out in this crap breathing it in!

And sorry, but I still do not trust the ivermectin. Just like the da*n rabies shot --How can it be proven one way or the other that it doesn't cause harm (Big time) later on (esp. after the build up over the years) Things that happen (later) are always blamed on something else but WHO knows--only God maybe! It seem that a lot of drugs (for humans) get put on the market after extensive (maybe--Do not trust the pharmeceutical companies at all--greedy that they are!!) --research but then it is found out that the drugs are dangerous after all!--a couple of examples-Avandia for diabetes and I know my dad died sooner because of it and I will not take it myself for my diabetes--and seems like I read or hear in the news all the time on warnings of this drug!; and the Proin crap that got pushed on the dogs after it was found to be killing women!

[CorkyMax]

This is a link to possibly the best answer to natural flea control---Diatomaceous Earth---and please note that you need the human grade 'stuff' and not the garden variety!
PetnBlog : Diatomaceous Earth for Flea Control, Really?

[CorkyMax]

This post is hard to find the proper place/forum to put it in so I am choosing here!

This article is 10 years old and should still apply if the mentioned poisons are still in use! Be aware this can really affect humans--especially young growing children!

NRDC: Poisons on Pets

This info (see link below) may be interesting as to how 'greed' comes into play on most everything--DDT is also mentioned. I don't know how old this link is either but some pretty informative info here too! Who can you trust anymore (if ever!).

Toxic Chemicals and Multiple Chemical Sensitivity - MCS a Case Study

[Mr. Vega]

The first article cork is about organophosphates. These aren't in any of the current flea/tick preventatives.

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by Mr. Vega

The first article cork is about organophosphates. These aren't in any of the current flea/tick preventatives.

Thanks for the info--I kind of wondered if after 10 years that something was done about them. It is so good to have you around, Mr. Vega to keep things 'right!' And I mean that --Take it the right way--I am not kidding or anything!

[Lara's mom]

I agree with corky/max 100%! We're very lucky to have a vet-in-training in the forum. Thanks Mr. Vega!!!

[Mr. Vega]

Well, you guys are welcome. Wish I could always keep things 'right.' There's still so much more to learn and it makes my head hurt. But, I'm always available for a PM if someone specifically needs help or whatever. It may take a few days, but, I'll get to it.

Things were getting a little crazy last week so I didn't have much time to post up. I'm not the biggest fan of equine medicine/surgery, but, I still have to do it now it didn't come very easily for me. So, there def. wasn't much time to spend here.



PS: Cork, it's probably worth mentioning that I think those organophosphates MAY be used in some of the old flea collars that everyone used to use. I dunno if they sell em like that anymore or not? I never see clients who put them on their dog.

[CorkyMax]

I decided to check on the poisons that are used in the present day flea collars and other things----They are still out there! Hope everyone will check out all the info that are in the following links!
http://www.greenpaws.org/_docs/GP_ToxicFactSheet.pdf This does mention about organophosphates still being used! Everyone should read this site and esp. if you have children (toddlers are the most vulnerable)!

chemicals in flea and tick collars | Chemical Flea Collars Threaten Pets and Kids, as Well as Pests | Rodale News


Flea Collar Carcinogen Canceled | Simple Steps

Flea Collars May Expose Children To Insecticides

HartzVictims.org - One More Victim is One Too Many

In one of the sites it is mentioned that pills would be safer----SAFER for us but not necessarily the dog--The pill is poison too and now it is absorbed right in the bloodstream! I will never use another poison on or in my dogs! Don't want fleas but I want live healthy dogs more! Natural ways may not do as good a job but it is the only way for me!
(Good to hear from you again, Mr. Vega!)