[lulusmom]

I am not a fan of Science Diet food either but if you have a dog that is morbidly obese with possible heart issues and collapsed trachea, I would be willing to feed SD long enough to get the weight off. I am in rescue and we have a little long haired chi that is huge and we need to get her weight down asap. I'd love to be able to prepare her meals but it's not possible with my schedule so, Yogi, I would greatly appreciate your feedback on how palatable your dog found W/D. Not sure that is going to be a problem for this one but you never know. Any other tips would be appreciated.

With respect to feeding vegetables to fill up a dog, I personally would not recommend cabbage over green beans as it is a highly fermentable fiber that is much more likely to cause loose stool than firm it up. Like in humans, it is also likely to cause gas, which is not comfortable for a dog and is certainly not pleasant for pet owners whose sense of smell is intact. For the occasional problems, pumpkin is nutritious and is a superior form of fiber that has been recommended for both loose stools and constipation for as long as I've been alive....and that's a very, very long time.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by lulusmom

I am not a fan of Science Diet food either but if you have a dog that is morbidly obese with possible heart issues and collapsed trachea, I would be willing to feed SD long enough to get the weight off. I am in rescue and we have a little long haired chi that is huge and we need to get her weight down asap. I'd love to be able to prepare her meals but it's not possible with my schedule so, Yogi, I would greatly appreciate your feedback on how palatable your dog found W/D. Not sure that is going to be a problem for this one but you never know. Any other tips would be appreciated.

With respect to feeding vegetables to fill up a dog, I personally would not recommend cabbage over green beans as it is a highly fermentable fiber that is much more likely to cause loose stool than firm it up. Like in humans, it is also likely to cause gas, which is not comfortable for a dog and is certainly not pleasant for pet owners whose sense of smell is intact. For the occasional problems, pumpkin is nutritious and is a superior form of fiber that has been recommended for both loose stools and constipation for as long as I've been alive....and that's a very, very long time.

I don't really agree with your pumpkin recommendation. I feel that pumpkin covers up problems rather than address them. To address and eventually completely solve a bowel problem, you must address your dog's diet. Science diet is NOT a nutritious dog food. The only reason a dog would loose weight on SD is because it basically crapping out most of the contents of the food because of the high amount of indigestable contents (grains being most prevalent). Why not try a high quality kibble? Say sell weight management/reduced fat formulas too you know.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by lulusmom

I am not a fan of Science Diet food either but if you have a dog that is morbidly obese with possible heart issues and collapsed trachea, I would be willing to feed SD long enough to get the weight off. I am in rescue and we have a little long haired chi that is huge and we need to get her weight down asap. I'd love to be able to prepare her meals but it's not possible with my schedule so, Yogi, I would greatly appreciate your feedback on how palatable your dog found W/D. Not sure that is going to be a problem for this one but you never know. Any other tips would be appreciated.

With respect to feeding vegetables to fill up a dog, I personally would not recommend cabbage over green beans as it is a highly fermentable fiber that is much more likely to cause loose stool than firm it up. Like in humans, it is also likely to cause gas, which is not comfortable for a dog and is certainly not pleasant for pet owners whose sense of smell is intact. For the occasional problems, pumpkin is nutritious and is a superior form of fiber that has been recommended for both loose stools and constipation for as long as I've been alive....and that's a very, very long time.

I have recently taken in a small overweight Miniature Pinscher that along with a couple of others who have gained are on R/D and they have no problems with eating it. Each was started 2 weeks ago and there is a visible difference in their appearance. The product simply works. Unfortunately those that have never used it or needed it as I have with dogs that come to me in poor condition can only base on what they think and not on actual results first hand. I do not recommend that this be given once the dog is back to safe weight but to get the dog there, it does the job fine and is in fact healthy for the dog during this period. What many people overlook especially in smaller breeds is that 1 or 2lbs can be the difference between life and death. Carrying 25 to 35% more weight can lead very easily to diabetes therefore putting a dog on a diet no matter whether home cooked or not will not see the results as fast as this will which in the end is more important to avoid issues that can be longer lasting then just reducing the dogs weight. Stay strictly with the schedule and amount noted. Good Luck

[lulusmom]

Originally Posted by Todd

I don't really agree with your pumpkin recommendation. I feel that pumpkin covers up problems rather than address them. To address and eventually completely solve a bowel problem, you must address your dog's diet. Science diet is NOT a nutritious dog food. The only reason a dog would loose weight on SD is because it basically crapping out most of the contents of the food because of the high amount of indigestable contents (grains being most prevalent). Why not try a high quality kibble? Say sell weight management/reduced fat formulas too you know.

Todd, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post. If you will kindly go back to my prior post, I think you will see that my recommendation had nothing to do with pumpkin....it was for green beans over cabbage. I was not inferring in any way that pumpkin is a suitable replacement for a vet in the event of chronic problems. I merely stated that pumpkin is good for the "occasional" problem, which most dogs will have at some point in their lives.

Yogi, thank you so much for your feedback on your experience with SD. My own dogs are on grainless and I'm sure that I could get the weight off of this little Chi but I want fast results and am impressed with your great experience with SD. Like I said, I think it's fine for a necessary interim measure and like all my other fosters, she will eventually enjoy a grainless diet. It's tough when you have so many special needs babies in the house. I've got one that needs to get the weight off like yesterday and another emaciated tiny one with a grade 6 heart murmur that needs to get the weight on. Oy!

[Todd]

Originally Posted by lulusmom

Todd, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post. If you will kindly go back to my prior thread, I think you will see that my recommendation had nothing to do with pumpkin....it was for green beans over cabbage. I was not inferring in any way that pumpkin is a suitable replacement for a vet in the event of chronic problems. I merely stated that pumpkin is good for the "occasional" problem, which most dogs will have at some point in their lives.

Yogi, thank you so much for your feedback on your experience with SD. My own dogs are on grainless and I'm sure that I could get the weight off of this little Chi but I want fast results and am impressed with your great experience with SD. Like I said, I think it's fine for a necessary interim measure and like all my other fosters, she will eventually enjoy a grainless diet. It's tough when you have so many special needs babies in the house. I've got one that needs to get the weight off like yesterday and another emaciated tiny one with a grade 6 heart murmur that needs to get the weight on. Oy!

oh ok i see. yes pumpkin is often useful for the short term but now long term solution.

I still highly recommend you consider a different approach before resorting to science diet. going from a grain-less kibble to science diet seems a little harsh.

[Lara's mom]

Dogs who are carrying around a lot of extra weight are prone to a lot of different health problems. I would go with the prescription diet your vet recommends and supplement the diet with veggies until the proper weight is achieved. Then, you can switch over to the food of your choice. Just don't overdo it or you'll be right back where you started.

Also, increase the amount of exercise. Schedule in extra walks and ball playing at the park or whatever physical activity your dog enjoys. Cut out all treats except for a very few low calorie ones.

[thk_carmen]

Verve by The Honest Kitchen is a great food for weight loss!

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

Dogs who are carrying around a lot of extra weight are prone to a lot of different health problems. I would go with the prescription diet your vet recommends and supplement the diet with veggies until the proper weight is achieved. Then, you can switch over to the food of your choice. Just don't overdo it or you'll be right back where you started.

Also, increase the amount of exercise. Schedule in extra walks and ball playing at the park or whatever physical activity your dog enjoys. Cut out all treats except for a very few low calorie ones.

I wouldn't rely of nutritional recommendations from your vet. They will most likely prescribe Science Diet, which in my opinion is a very poor dog food.

[Yogi]

be careful Todd you may be assuming too much. There are in fact many vets who are also dog and animal nutritionists. Mine is one and recommends Hills for specific health reasons. Not to mention Hills is based and created by nutritionists for their specific needs. These are not long term unless the dog or cat has severe illness or disease but in fact does provide the proper nutrition for what it is designed to do. I think you are spending too much time looking at ingredients to understand that Hills is specific not a member of the everyday dog food group but clearly specific therefore what you are seeing or not seeing you need to put aside and ask yourself, why do these contain or not contain what you are deeming to be so important. I think maybe you will understand what I learned from this product years ago. But then again, you have never really had to deal with severe obesity, or diabetes etc. Had you, you may understand a little more that this product in fact works. I know because I have used it many times with regards to rescues that came to me with health issues and illness'. Calling food in a sense crap just because you do not like it or believe in something different is not expressing an opinion openly but more so condemning what you really may not understand and as pointed out. Expressing an opinion is fine so long as it is on topic. I do not slam those who raw feed, that is of their preference and choice at the same time I do not expect others to slam what those with more experience have used and have found with first hand knowledge in fact is healthy and works as it does.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

be careful Todd you may be assuming too much. There are in fact many vets who are also dog and animal nutritionists. Mine is one and recommends Hills for specific health reasons. Not to mention Hills is based and created by nutritionists for their specific needs. These are not long term unless the dog or cat has severe illness or disease but in fact does provide the proper nutrition for what it is designed to do. I think you are spending too much time looking at ingredients to understand that Hills is specific not a member of the everyday dog food group but clearly specific therefore what you are seeing or not seeing you need to put aside and ask yourself, why do these contain or not contain what you are deeming to be so important. I think maybe you will understand what I learned from this product years ago. But then again, you have never really had to deal with severe obesity, or diabetes etc. Had you, you may understand a little more that this product in fact works. I know because I have used it many times with regards to rescues that came to me with health issues and illness'. Calling food in a sense crap just because you do not like it or believe in something different is not expressing an opinion openly but more so condemning what you really may not understand and as pointed out. Expressing an opinion is fine so long as it is on topic. I do not slam those who raw feed, that is of their preference and choice at the same time I do not expect others to slam what those with more experience have used and have found with first hand knowledge in fact is healthy and works as it does.

I think what I'm basically trying to say is that you don;t need to feed Hills or Science Diet to address these kinds of issues. These issues can be addressed with other (in my personal opinion) high quality foods. For example, with obesity, why use Hills when you could do a home cooked diet with lean meets and veggies or even a higher quality kibble and just feed less or a reduced fat version? Again, this is just the way I personally feel, but I believe that Hills and Science Diet are vet favorites and marketing plays a big part of these specialty diets. Again, just my opinion.

[Yogi]

I agree that there are many dog foods in general that are marketed through vets offices but I feel you are making far too many assumptions as to their quality for what they are created for. Many products I see on my vets shelf even he does not endorse but when it comes to the health of an ill dog when it needs immediate attention, why would the layman have to become a cook and work from recipes when the product is already made and proven to work. Many such as myself have faith in the people who's job it is to prepare foods for ill and overweight dogs. They have all the tools that you and I do not to ensure that the proper ingredients needed dependent on the illness, disease or overweight issue is precise. You have one dog, those like myself that have many and those that deal in rescues simply do not have the time to mess with something like preparing a specially cooked meal from a recipe when we know it is already conveniently prepared by professional nutritionists. Simply put, why waste time on something that no one needs to in cases such as this. As stated, if it was everyday feeding with no dog health issues, go for what you want. But for those of us who live in a world that many here such as yourself cannot comprehend ie: multiple dogs and not talking 2 or 3, we use what works and can be provided in a quick manner.

[Todd]

I understand what you're saying, but here is something I'd like to point out. Here are the ingredients in a Hills diet specifically desinged for overweight dogs;

Metabolizable Energy:
2699 kcal/kg (220 kcal/per cup)


Ingredients:
Ground Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose 15% (source of fiber), Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Meal, Peanut Hulls 11% (source of fiber), Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Mill Run, Dried Egg Product, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Oil, Iron Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement, Potassium Chloride, Iodized Salt, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Choline Chloride, preserved with BHT, BHA and Ethoxyquin, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Carnitine, Beta-carotene.


Average Nutrient Content:
Protein 20.0 min
Fat 5.5 min
Carbohydrate (NFE) 35.0
Crude Fiber 26.0 max
Calcium 0.50 min
Phosphorus 0.35 min
Sodium 0.28
Potassium 0.76
Magnesium 0.111
Carnitine 200 ppm min


Intended for:
Obese and overweight dogs.


Product Characteristics:
Carnitine High
Calories Low
Fat Low
Fiber High
Added Antioxidants Help reduce free radical damage to counteract oxidative stress

Now, here are the ingredients for a high quality kibble, Wellness CORE Reduced Fat Formula;

Feeding guideline:
A 50lb dog should be fed 2 1/4 - 3 cups for maintenance or 2 - 2 3/4 cups for weight loss.


Calories Analysis on an as fed basis
Per kilogram 3,270 kcal
Per cup ME 350 cal


Ingredients:
Deboned Turkey, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Dried Ground Potatoes, Pea Fiber, Whitefish Meal, Tomato Pomace, Natural Chicken Flavor, Chicken Liver, Salmon Oil, Flaxseed, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Kale, Broccoli, Spinach, Parsley, Apples, Blueberries, Vitamins, Minerals, Choline Chloride, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract.


Wellness® uses Ethoxyquin-free protein sources.


Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein min. 33%
Crude Fat min. 8%
Crude Fat max. 10%
Crude Fiber max. 8.5%
Moisture max. 10%
Calcium max. 1.9%
Phosphorus max. 1.3%
Vitamin E min. 500 IU/kg
Omega 6 Fatty Acids* min. 2.2%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids* min. 0.50%
Glucosamin Hydrochloride* min. 250 mg/kg
Chondroitin Sulfate* min. 200 mg/kg
Total Micro-organisms* min. 80,000,000 CFU/lb

Although Hills formula has slightly less calories (not all that much less) and slightly less fat (again, not much) you can get away with feeding significantly less of CORE than Hills because it is more nutrient dense and seems a lot healthier overall.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Todd

I understand what you're saying, but here is something I'd like to point out. Here are the ingredients in a Hills diet specifically desinged for overweight dogs;

Metabolizable Energy:
2699 kcal/kg (220 kcal/per cup)


Ingredients:
Ground Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose 15% (source of fiber), Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Meal, Peanut Hulls 11% (source of fiber), Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Mill Run, Dried Egg Product, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Oil, Iron Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement, Potassium Chloride, Iodized Salt, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Choline Chloride, preserved with BHT, BHA and Ethoxyquin, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Carnitine, Beta-carotene.


Average Nutrient Content:
Protein 20.0 min
Fat 5.5 min
Carbohydrate (NFE) 35.0
Crude Fiber 26.0 max
Calcium 0.50 min
Phosphorus 0.35 min
Sodium 0.28
Potassium 0.76
Magnesium 0.111
Carnitine 200 ppm min


Intended for:
Obese and overweight dogs.


Product Characteristics:
Carnitine High
Calories Low
Fat Low
Fiber High
Added Antioxidants Help reduce free radical damage to counteract oxidative stress

Now, here are the ingredients for a high quality kibble, Wellness CORE Reduced Fat Formula;

Feeding guideline:
A 50lb dog should be fed 2 1/4 - 3 cups for maintenance or 2 - 2 3/4 cups for weight loss.


Calories Analysis on an as fed basis
Per kilogram 3,270 kcal
Per cup ME 350 cal


Ingredients:
Deboned Turkey, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Dried Ground Potatoes, Pea Fiber, Whitefish Meal, Tomato Pomace, Natural Chicken Flavor, Chicken Liver, Salmon Oil, Flaxseed, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Kale, Broccoli, Spinach, Parsley, Apples, Blueberries, Vitamins, Minerals, Choline Chloride, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract.


Wellness® uses Ethoxyquin-free protein sources.


Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein min. 33%
Crude Fat min. 8%
Crude Fat max. 10%
Crude Fiber max. 8.5%
Moisture max. 10%
Calcium max. 1.9%
Phosphorus max. 1.3%
Vitamin E min. 500 IU/kg
Omega 6 Fatty Acids* min. 2.2%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids* min. 0.50%
Glucosamin Hydrochloride* min. 250 mg/kg
Chondroitin Sulfate* min. 200 mg/kg
Total Micro-organisms* min. 80,000,000 CFU/lb

Although Hills formula has slightly less calories (not all that much less) and slightly less fat (again, not much) you can get away with feeding significantly less of CORE than Hills because it is more nutrient dense and seems a lot healthier overall.

Again, that is great but fact is Hills does work. Common sense after all my years raising dogs is if you find something that works you leave it alone.
There is far too much emphasis put on dog food in this country yet people like me have been using these foods for their dogs for longer than most here and the dogs have lived long healthy lives with no illness and basically diseased free. By continually saying everything is bad just because you don't wish to use it in fact does NOT make it bad. This whole dog food issue has only in the past few years come to the forefront and has not been truly based on the ingredients but more so on where the ingredients come from.
Just because one wishes to give raw diets to dogs does not mean they are entitled to campaign on sites calling everything else that others use garbage when they in fact have no proof outside of what they think is wrong with the dog food others use. Fact is, humans ate raw long before dogs were ever mans best friend. Are we suppose to believe that going back to raw is better for us. The unfortunate problem here is and has been brought up on many other forums is simply this, Raw diets have no documented support to date. It will take many years of industry study to determine health or non health of this diet. In addition, dogs have been fed dog food for nearly 100 years. In that time as in humans the system acclimates as with the organs in the way it process' food. Taking a dog and putting it on something that "wolves" at and not dogs can be looked upon as stretching. For those that want to feed raw as I stated prior, it is there business and I have not preached against it. In turn, opinions where the last line in nearly all post is hinting or declaring what you or others believe is not good just because it is not what you feed a dog in no way makes your choice anymore right than mine or others who elect to not raw feed. Simply putting it, it gets old when every post is a condemnation of your non choice to use dry or kibble. It would therefore be in your best interest instead of remarking continuously about how you do not like dry and kibble that you stay more on topic and declare why you do like raw. This in turn would sell your point more so than trying to pick apart dry food which in turn implies that all who feed their dogs dry food must be stupid since you keep telling everyone how bad it is and no one is listening.
Again, the choice to feed and what to feed falls on the owner. It is their choice. If they come here and ask what is the best food than the answer should just be that not a follow up with a list of things not to feed as that was not the question. As for diet foods, I have had more than my fair share of dealing with overweight dogs. When the time comes you have had to deal with serious issues with overweight dogs, than maybe I could see and heed your recommendation but I have not seen where you have had this experience therefore again, common sense is you lean on what you know actually works and has proven to work and is in fact healthy. For some reason you seem to feel that I have no idea as to the products out there. I have a great deal of knowledge in this and in turn have many years raising dogs and in the end my concern is to raise healthy dogs that out live their breed standard and in each that were born from my sires and dams, they have done just that for over 50 years. I think that justifies my reason for why I feed what I do. You feed what you believe is right and I have done to this point a good job to not condemn or point out the wrongs of it as this is ones choice which just happens to not be mine and with that, it is up to each to determine on their own. It does not take a genius to read the package. In turn I don't expect to see it here either. As I stated, this is a topic that always goes awry just like breeding. Too many opinions leads to animosity where one side is pushing their view and the other theirs. The fact is, it never resolves itself which is why I generally other forums close these down as one of the other moderators mentioned doing. So for the sake of dispute, disagreement lets just stay on the topic of what each feels is best not what each feels is bad with regards to food to give a dog if overweight. By doing so, the OP gets replies to consider and the topic stays on course.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Again, that is great but fact is Hills does work. Common sense after all my years raising dogs is if you find something that works you leave it alone.
There is far too much emphasis put on dog food in this country yet people like me have been using these foods for their dogs for longer than most here and the dogs have lived long healthy lives with no illness and basically diseased free. By continually saying everything is bad just because you don't wish to use it in fact does NOT make it bad. This whole dog food issue has only in the past few years come to the forefront and has not been truly based on the ingredients but more so on where the ingredients come from.
Just because one wishes to give raw diets to dogs does not mean they are entitled to campaign on sites calling everything else that others use garbage when they in fact have no proof outside of what they think is wrong with the dog food others use. Fact is, humans ate raw long before dogs were ever mans best friend. Are we suppose to believe that going back to raw is better for us. The unfortunate problem here is and has been brought up on many other forums is simply this, Raw diets have no documented support to date. It will take many years of industry study to determine health or non health of this diet. In addition, dogs have been fed dog food for nearly 100 years. In that time as in humans the system acclimates as with the organs in the way it process' food. Taking a dog and putting it on something that "wolves" at and not dogs can be looked upon as stretching. For those that want to feed raw as I stated prior, it is there business and I have not preached against it. In turn, opinions where the last line in nearly all post is hinting or declaring what you or others believe is not good just because it is not what you feed a dog in no way makes your choice anymore right than mine or others who elect to not raw feed. Simply putting it, it gets old when every post is a condemnation of your non choice to use dry or kibble. It would therefore be in your best interest instead of remarking continuously about how you do not like dry and kibble that you stay more on topic and declare why you do like raw. This in turn would sell your point more so than trying to pick apart dry food which in turn implies that all who feed their dogs dry food must be stupid since you keep telling everyone how bad it is and no one is listening.
Again, the choice to feed and what to feed falls on the owner. It is their choice. If they come here and ask what is the best food than the answer should just be that not a follow up with a list of things not to feed as that was not the question. As for diet foods, I have had more than my fair share of dealing with overweight dogs. When the time comes you have had to deal with serious issues with overweight dogs, than maybe I could see and heed your recommendation but I have not seen where you have had this experience therefore again, common sense is you lean on what you know actually works and has proven to work and is in fact healthy. For some reason you seem to feel that I have no idea as to the products out there. I have a great deal of knowledge in this and in turn have many years raising dogs and in the end my concern is to raise healthy dogs that out live their breed standard and in each that were born from my sires and dams, they have done just that for over 50 years. I think that justifies my reason for why I feed what I do. You feed what you believe is right and I have done to this point a good job to not condemn or point out the wrongs of it as this is ones choice which just happens to not be mine and with that, it is up to each to determine on their own. It does not take a genius to read the package. In turn I don't expect to see it here either. As I stated, this is a topic that always goes awry just like breeding. Too many opinions leads to animosity where one side is pushing their view and the other theirs. The fact is, it never resolves itself which is why I generally other forums close these down as one of the other moderators mentioned doing. So for the sake of dispute, disagreement lets just stay on the topic of what each feels is best not what each feels is bad with regards to food to give a dog if overweight. By doing so, the OP gets replies to consider and the topic stays on course.

Yogi, I am sorry if I offended you. I was just expressing my opinions. I by not means think you are ignorant when it comes to dog foods. You are a very smart dog owner and have a lot of experience. I'm just stating my own personal opinions. Now, I don't wish to get off topic, however I'd just like to say the major reason I don't like foods like Hills or Science Diet is because of the preservatives, which have been scientifically proven to contribute to various diseases and illnesses. Here is a list of ingredients I personally looked up in the dictionary, all of which are from one single brand of Purina;

Water sufficient for processing, fish, poultry, meat by-products, wheat gluten, tuna, soy flour, natural and artificial flavors, corn starch-modified, potassium chloride, xanthan gum, titanium dioxide color, salt, carrageenan, taurine, tricalcium phosphate, iron oxide, Vitamin E supplement, sodium nitrite (to promote color retention), thiamine mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), dicalcium phosphate, niacin, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement (Vitamin B-2), cobalt carbonate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, potassium iodide, biotin. A-5204

meat by-products: The non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low temperature fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth and hoofs. It shall be suitable for use in animal food. If it bears name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond thereto.

Wheat Gluten: a protein substance that remains when starch is removed from cereal grains; gives cohesiveness to dough

Soy Flour: finely ground soybeans, most commonly used as an additive to other flours, processed meats, cereals, etc.

Artificial Flavors: any substance created artificially to flavor food products

corn starch: a fine, granular or powdery starch made from corn: used in cooking and to make corn sugar, corn syrup, etc.

potassium chloride: A colorless crystalline solid or powder, KCl, used widely in fertilizers and in the preparation of most potassium compounds. Also called potash muriate, potassium muriate.

xanthan gum: A natural gum of high molecular weight produced by culture fermentation of glucose and used as a stabilizer in commercial food preparation.

titanium dioxide color: A white powder, TiO2, used as an exceptionally opaque white pigment.

carrageenan: Any of a group of closely related colloids derived from Irish moss and several other red algae, widely used as a thickening, stabilizing, emulsifying, or suspending agent in industrial, pharmaceutical, and food products.

iron oxide: Any of various oxides of iron, such as ferric oxide or ferrous oxide.

sodium nitrite: A fire-hazardous, air-sensitive, yellowish powder, soluble in water; decomposes above 320°C; used as an intermediate for dyestuffs and for pickling meat, textiles dyeing, and rust-proofing, and in medicine.

ferrous sulfate: A greenish crystalline compound, FeSO4·7H2O, used as a pigment, fertilizer, and feed additive, in sewage and water treatment, and as a medicine in the treatment of iron deficiency. Also called copperas.

zinc sulfate: a colorless, crystalline powder, ZnSO·7HO, used as an emetic in medicine, as a mordant in dyeing, etc.

manganese sulfate: a pink, water-soluble, usually tetrahydrate salt, MnSO4·4H2O, used chiefly in fertilizers, paints, and varnishes.

copper sulfate: A poisonous blue crystalline copper salt, CuSO4·5H2O, used in agriculture, textile dyeing, leather treatment, electroplating, and the manufacture of germicides.

niacin: A white crystalline acid, C5H4NCOOH, that is a component of the vitamin B complex found in meat, wheat germ, dairy products, and yeast and is used to treat and prevent pellagra. Also called nicotinic acid.

cobalt carbonate: A hard, brittle metallic element, found associated with nickel, silver, lead, copper, and iron ores and resembling nickel and iron in appearance. It is used chiefly for magnetic alloys, high-temperature alloys, and in the form of its salts for blue glass and ceramic pigments.

potassium iodide: a transparent, crystalline salt, KI, available also as a white, granular powder, used as a feed additive and in medicine, photography, etc.

*Again, I am in no stretch of the imagination trying to be disrespectful to you or anyone else who feeds these foods. I am just stating and discussing my own personal opinion.

[Lunareclipse]

Just some good home-cooked low fat recipes. It would be healthier than Science Diet.

[CorkyMax]

I have 'forced myself' to stay out of this debate but (and everyone knows what I think of commercial dog food--which I am not going to go in to as deeply as I could here)--there is something that bothers me about some of the ingredients in these specialty diets--Hill's for one. This has bothered me long before this debate here started. A while back my daughter's dog had diabetes (which I have myself--so I know a lot about what to eat and not eat!!). I was with her when she took this dog to the vet. The vet brought this bag of 'special dog food' to the counter and I started looking at the ingredients and I was shocked to see that the very 1st and thus main ingredient was corn and I was so surprised--and had that look of disgust on my face (that the vet couldn't help but see) that I said something to the vet---He really had no answer for me and my take on it was that he had no idea about the whole thing---Just selling what he had been 'given' by the company. I am not sure what the brand was anymore but it was prob. Hill's or Science Diet as he does sell these 2 brands. CORN is a no-no for Diabetes 1st of all--It has too many carbs--granted there is a little fiber (really not enough to count) there but not enough to make up for too many carbs! This ingredient can cause blood sugar to go up!! And as far as corn even being good for a normal dog--Corn is about the worst grain/veg. to feed. Plus corn has calories so why would it be for a dog to lose weight. Corn is hard for a dog to digest and is the worst grain for allergies in dogs. Now, of course, my question is WHY would these 'expert nutritionests' even put corn in this "special' dog food!!?? I could prob. give a few answers to that, but I won't---It isn't hard to figure it out! And I also took note that corn gluten meal is also added (along with the main ingredient-ground whole grain corn)in the ingredients of the Hill's Diet that has been mentioned in some of the above posts. I would call this a 'double whammy' and sneaky because if all this corn was added up---A lot of corn!!

Another ingredient I don't find very nutritional is the peanut hulls which the company says is a source of fiber---May be a source of fiber but how nutritious is it!!?? Sounds like a way to use up a human (no pun intended) waste product! Too many sly greedy people trying to make money is what I see. It really pi**es me off that they think I am stupid enough to believe whatever they want to pull--Of course they don't care anyway!

It is also stated in a post above on the Hill's bag: calories low----Well the corn is not making it low! Because of the statement: low fat---That is what is keeping some of the calories low. Fat has more calories than carbs or protein! FAT= 9 calories per gram; CARBS= 4 calories per gram; PROTEIN= 4 calories per gram. As far as I see it -- the low fat and the fiberous peanut hulls (he*l!-peanut hulls are not a FOOD for humans or dogs!) are keeping some of the calories down. Any fiber content actually 'eliminates' calories--if you get 'my drift' here!--not even going to try to explain! All in all, I see the corn products being used here as mainly a cheap filler!! And the fiber in the peanut hulls may help do the 'job'---But is just plain wrong to even use! And these hulls are another very cheap filler--NO COST AT ALL!

Don't see potatoes (Wellness Core Reduced Fat) as a very good ingredient for weight loss either but suppose you have to have some 'filling',satisfying ingredient, but think something better could of replaced potatoes. Prob. not much spinach in this but as a rule -- too much spinach is not good for a dog (see the thread on Foods that are Hazardous for your Dog)



There, I've got that off my chest and hopefully I am done with this thread---Sorry! But frankly I am tired of this thread--Period!

[Todd]

Here are a few home prepared dog diets which are rather low in calories and designed specifically for overweight dogs if anyone's interested. Lower fat diets aren't always the answer, for fat plays a very important role in the overall health of both dogs and cats;. I have come up with these recipes myself. They are fairly simplistic;

(Amount depends of breed/age/size/weight loss goal of dog)

The majority of the meal should consist of meat. In my opinion dogs are carnivores. Others may object, however I hope we can all agree that meat is the most important part of a dog's diet. I'd say the meal should consist of at least half (if not 75%) meat. If the dogs is overweight I'd recommend using leans meats such as Extra Lean Ground Beef (7% fat), Lean Ground Turkey (from 1-7% fat), Ground Chicken Breast or Skinless Chicken Breast (Can be purchased with as little as 1% fat), fish, as well as other meat sources. Remember, it is unhealthy for a dog to receive extremely low amounts of fat. If you have an overweight dog, keep the fat moderate but don't go too low. In my opinion, the overall meal should consist of 7% fat as the very least.

Next, depending on whether you wish to go grain-free or not, you may or may not choose to add carbs. In my opinion, dogs are carnivores and really don't require many carb regardless. If you decide to add a bit of carbs, I'd suggest using a high quality fiber source which can also assist with weight loss. Consider using cooked oats, sweet peas, pumpkin, or carrots. These straight carbs high in fiber should consist of 12.5-25% of the diet. These carbs will NOT promote weight gain like rice or potatoes may.

Finally, the final 12.5-25% should consist of vegetables and maybe some added fruit if you wish. Some smart choices include (but are not limited to) cabbage (which does wonders in filling the dog up without the extra calories but may make your dog gassy), green beans, carrots, apples, pears, and grapefruits.

If you happen to be worried that you are not completely balancing the diet of a regular basis, consider adding a vitamin supplement.

Personally, I'd go with a diet consisting of 75% lean meat, 12.5% high fiber carbs, and 12.5% vegetables/fruits. If this doesn't work to your liking after a while of observation, I'd recommend trying a diet consisting of 50% lean meat, 25% high fiber carbs (which can help with more weight loss), and 25% vegetables and fruits. Feel free to tinker wit these ratios to see what fits your dog's personal situation. Just don't dip below 50% meat for this is thwe most important component of a balanced diet for a dog.

[CorkyMax]

I am back here again already!!! Being as my Corky has been diagnosed with heart disease this past week (Dilated cardiomyopathy) I have been searching for all the info I can find to try and do all I can for him. In searching, I come across a lot of other interesting info that I like to pass on. Am pasting here some info on FIBER that may be of interest to not only members that need to have their dogs lose weight but others can get some good info here too!--------->
Fiber

Fiber comes in two forms, insoluble fiber and soluble fiber (fermentable fiber) . Insoluble fiber does not dissolve in water. It is the substance that gives structure to all plants. When we or our pets ingest it, it expends with water and helps move and lubricate food down the intestine. Soluble fiber is high in oats, beans, peas, barley, fruits and vegetables. Insoluble fiber is high in wheat bran and carrots, but all fiber sources contain a mixture of the two.

We do not know how much fiber dogs and cats need. Intuitively, we think they need less fiber than humans because their natural carnivorous diets contained less and their relatively short digestive tracts have less time to metabolize it. This is especially true for cats. Commercial dry pet foods typically contain 2.5 - 4.5 percent crude total fiber. This is a combination of soluble and insoluble fiber.

Excellent sources of additional fiber for your pet include rice bran, whole oats, canned pumpkin, beets, millers bran, and carrots. Rice bran is especially tasty.

If you increase the fiber content of your pet's food to over 10% a number of bad things might occur that include digestive upsets and blockage of nutrient absorption. Always increase fiber levels slowly, while monitoring your pet because some pets handle high fiber levels better than others.

We know that additional fiber seems to help pets with certain problems. That is why high-fiber prescription diets are sold by veterinarians. These diets usually contain sugar beet pulp - a waste product left over from sugar production - because it is inexpensive and readily available to them. It is also sold as a horse feed.
The first of the conditions in which additional fiber seems beneficial is diabetes. Diets high in fiber appear to lower blood glucose levels (10%) in humans. In pets, we know that additional fiber seems to lessen blood glucose spikes that occur after your pet eats.

Many diabetic pets are also overweight. An added benefit of high bulk-high fiber diets allow these pets to feel full after consuming less calories. If you can not bear to just feed your pet less, try bulking its diet with high-fiber, low caloric ingredients and lowering the fat content of it's diet so that it feels pleasantly full without eating a lot of calories. The best fiber for this purpose is insoluble or non-fermentable fiber. This is because fermentable fiber is more likely to cause loose stools and gas. Commercially prepared low-cal diets usually have (sugar) beet pulp or lignocellulose (powdered wood ) added to supply fiber. Wheat and oat bran and root vegetables are probably your best source.

Another common pet problem that benefits from a diet high in fiber is anal sac disease. These glands are normally emptied by the pressure of feces passing out the pet's anus. When the volume of stool is to small, or too firm or too loose, these two glands do not empty well and often become enlarged, inflamed and painful. Adding fiber to your pet's diet is one of the best ways to cure this problem. After repeated attacks, the exit tubes from these glands become scared and narrow and the gland may permanently loose its ability to contract. Once these changes have occurred, fiber will not solve the problem.

Some pets suffer from an over-active large intestine and chronic diarrhea called irritable bowel syndrome , colitis, or inflammatory bowel disease. Some of these pets do better when certain food ingredients are eliminated, some do better when the amount of fiber in their diet is lowered and some do better when the amount of fiber in their diet is increased. Megacolon, a disease we see primarily in cats, also improves on a high fiber diet.

It also seems that a diet high in fermentable fiber is beneficial in chronic kidney disease. In kidney failure, nitrogen-containing waste (BUN) builds up in the pet's blood stream. Diets high in fermentable fiber seem to allow some of this waste to leave the body through the large intestine rather than the failing kidneys.

The best way to prevent hairballs is to groom your cat regularly. However, when they occur, more than once every week or two, additional fiber in the cat's diet can help. That is the thought behind commercial high-fiber cat foods that advertise as preventing hairballs. Because the added fiber provides no calories, the manufacturers can also call them lo-cal, lite or indoor formulas. My favorite way to give this fiber is as two tablespoons full of canned pumpkin per day. If your cat does not like pumpkin taste, use rice bran. If you give too much, the cat will have diarrhea. So keep the cat confined to a confined, easily-cleaned area while you are experimenting. If fiber does not cure your cat's hair ball problem, you will need a furball remedy that contains petrolatum.

Fermentable fiber, is utilized by intestinal bacteria to produce short chain fatty acids (SCFA). These compounds seem to have a positive effect on general health, intestinal function and colon cancer in humans. We do not know if this is the case in pets as well.

The ingredients in commercial pet foods that are referred to as "fillers" by their competitors are often the same ingredients that add fiber. So they are not, necessarily bad. Actually, even the no-filler pet foods have fillers. They just call them something else - usually bran.