[CorkyMax]

As stated elsewhere: No arguments please--If you don't like the article--Ignore and do what you do! For those that find it 'informative'---Glad to bring it to your attention!

Myths About Raw: Is my vet really qualified to be giving nutritional advice?

I know these articles are about as bad as debating over religious or political preferences--But I want everyone to have at hand some interesting points/'facts' to think about! No one is holding a gun to your head to force you to do what you don't want to do! You have to make your own decisions but it is good to have all the info you can to help make those decisions! For instance: Fact: Most of the nutrients in food are cooked out because heat destroys them. If you know this (by reading these articles) and don't want to feed raw--At least you know what is happening and will try to compensate by adding what is lost. That is my purpose here--to get all things out so you can make sure your dog is not low on health-giving nutrients, etc. You want your dog to stay healthy so figure out how to do that! I wish I had known how to try and keep my Corky from having the heart problem he has now---thought I knew a lot but there is always more out there! You just have to study! Anyway--I do not want to get in any arguments on how to feed a dog---Just want everything 'on the table'---so a person can do their best by their dog! Just trying to help! If you don't like or agree with anything in these links--Fine, ignore, but let other people make up their own minds, PLEASE!

Myths About Raw: With all the premium kibbles available, is raw really necessary?

http://rawfed.com/myths/cookedfood.html

http://rawfed.com/myths/standards.html

http://rawfed.com/myths/research.html

[Todd]

I agree with you. I have read that vets are only taught about a week of direct nutrition in vet school and reps of large pet food companies like IAMS, Science Diet, or Purina teach them.

The things that puzzles me though is wouldn't you think vets would do some research online on their own rather than rely on everything taught to them at school? If they were truly animal lovers for years you'd think they'd be at least semi-knowledgeable about dog nutrition before hand.

Here's an interesting article I found discussing how much nutrition vets are really taught and who teaches them. Keep in mind, this was writen by a vet himself!

http://www.tailblazerspets.com/pdf/P...&Nutrition.pdf

[CorkyMax]

There were such a thing as grocery stores just for dogs--Lol, prob. be more like a dog grocery/butcher shop:
raw cut up choices of meat/some fish to choose from --fresh daily of course;
raw hearts-esp. beef with lots of natural taurine, and other fresh organ meats--organic liver, kidneys, etc: fresh raw veggies; raw meaty bones labeled for which kind of dogs; all supplements to choose from; made-up meals for convenience--packaged for the right size dog; special pkges for different conditions as kidney disease, heart, etc. I'm sure there could be other good ideas added to what this grocery store would entail. Dog treats that had no preservatives. 'Real dog nutritionists' employed (Frecs where are you!!??---former member who graduated to become a human/dog nutritionist)

If I had the money--I think I would start a chain of these stores. Things might be expensive in these stores at first but hopefully as things were bought in wholesale volume prices and if this got very popular--Who knows?
Lol, even the humans could want this natural healthy food--better than a lot of the crap sold in regular grocery stores now.:mrgreen:

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

There were such a thing as grocery stores just for dogs--Lol, prob. be more like a dog grocery/butcher shop:
raw cut up choices of meat/some fish to choose from --fresh daily of course;
raw hearts-esp. beef with lots of natural taurine, and other fresh organ meats--organic liver, kidneys, etc: fresh raw veggies; raw meaty bones labeled for which kind of dogs; all supplements to choose from; made-up meals for convenience--packaged for the right size dog; special pkges for different conditions as kidney disease, heart, etc. I'm sure there could be other good ideas added to what this grocery store would entail. Dog treats that had no preservatives. 'Real dog nutritionists' employed (Frecs where are you!!??---former member who graduated to become a human/dog nutritionist)

If I had the money--I think I would start a chain of these stores. Things might be expensive in these stores at first but hopefully as things were bought in wholesale volume prices and if this got very popular--Who knows?
Lol, even the humans could want this natural healthy food--better than a lot of the crap sold in regular grocery stores now.:mrgreen:

A dog grocery store? What would you consider a pet store?

Just kidding. I think I know what you're saying. Like a rae feeding dog store right? That would be really cool. I'd love to do something like that. Great, creative idea! Let's get together and get the ball rolling!!

[CorkyMax]

Quote:A dog grocery store? What would you consider a pet store?

Just kidding. I think I know what you're saying. Like a rae feeding dog store right? That would be really cool. I'd love to do something like that. Great, creative idea! Let's get together and get the ball rolling!!

Lol, I wish---I should have said and a lot younger besides the no money! But you are young enough, lol, It matters not to me whether I would do it ---Just love to see it happening for the dogs sakes!!

[Mr. Vega]

Originally Posted by Todd

I agree with you. I have read that vets are only taught about a week of direct nutrition in vet school and reps of large pet food companies like IAMS, Science Diet, or Purina teach them.

The things that puzzles me though is wouldn't you think vets would do some research online on their own rather than rely on everything taught to them at school? If they were truly animal lovers for years you'd think they'd be at least semi-knowledgeable about dog nutrition before hand.

Here's an interesting article I found discussing how much nutrition vets are really taught and who teaches them. Keep in mind, this was writen by a vet himself!

http://www.tailblazerspets.com/pdf/P...&Nutrition.pdf

This internet rumor is just priceless. Where to start....

I don't know what Dr. Messonnier learned at Texas A&M in the 80's. I wasn't in vet school in the 80's and I am not at Texas A&M. He states that he didn't learn much about nutrition. Well, OK? How that translates into every vetschool and 2010 is beyond me. You think people were taught the same things in the 80's as they are now? Think even 1/4 of the drugs, surgical procedures, or knowledge in general used in vet med today are the same as back then? Think the opinion of 1 guy speaks volumes about an entire profession?

Answer to the above: No.

So, hmm, how do I know this? Well because I'm actually there. So, nutrition you ask? I will have completed 3 courses in nutrition by the time I graduate. I've done 1 and have 2 next year.

Who teaches them? Ahh I love this one. Well I have investigated all of the professors who will be teaching these nutrition classes (in small and large animal medicine). Now pay attention here Todd because I don't want you taking things out of context like all the other idiots and spreading rumors that aren't true. Currently, at my school, Purina and Hill's are given 1 lecture hour each to teach us their take on nutrition. So, in case I haven't made it clear, that is ONE HOUR EACH. Given the fact that both companies donate tons of money to the vet schools (these things aren't cheap to run ya know?), 1 hour of lecture time in 1 class is a perfectly acceptable trade. So, we got 2 whole classes? Who takes the rest of the lectures?????? Board certified veterinary specialists and animal nutrition experts. Most of whom (again, pay attention here) actually PREFER some of the higher quality brands that are often mentinoed here rather than Hill's or Purina.

"If they were truly animal lovers for years you'd think they'd be at least semi-knowledgeable about dog nutrition before hand. "
--Really, Todd? Who says that they're not? You? Dr. Holistic from Texas A&M? Think either of you can say what knowledge all veterinarians have? Think either of you can speak on what extra studying/research any vet or vet student does?

Truly animal lovers? Lol - Let me set you straight, we don't do this for the money. Trust me, it's not as good as you think it is. Compound that with student loan debt that often matches what Medical students have, and it's not even worth it. I (and every other vet student) have to kill myself in school just to get in. Now that I'm in, the stress and difficulty is multiplied 100-fold when compared to my undergraduate work. It's nothing for me to go 2 days with 1 hour of sleep between them. I haven't had more than 2 free weekends since september. I bet you enjoy spring break and thanksgiving yea? I don't. I usually get 1 day of each to do nothing. The rest is studying. Why am I doing all of this? Why do I use my study breaks to get online and try to help those who are distressed b/c their dog is sick? God help you if you think it's for anything other than animal compassoin and welfare. I've met hundreds of breeders, trainers, animal welfare activists, etc... Few of them have matched the compassion I see every day at school (from faculty and students).

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Mr. Vega

This internet rumor is just priceless. Where to start....

I don't know what Dr. Messonnier learned at Texas A&M in the 80's. I wasn't in vet school in the 80's and I am not at Texas A&M. He states that he didn't learn much about nutrition. Well, OK? How that translates into every vetschool and 2010 is beyond me. You think people were taught the same things in the 80's as they are now? Think even 1/4 of the drugs, surgical procedures, or knowledge in general used in vet med today are the same as back then? Think the opinion of 1 guy speaks volumes about an entire profession?

Answer to the above: No.

So, hmm, how do I know this? Well because I'm actually there. So, nutrition you ask? I will have completed 3 courses in nutrition by the time I graduate. I've done 1 and have 2 next year.

Who teaches them? Ahh I love this one. Well I have investigated all of the professors who will be teaching these nutrition classes (in small and large animal medicine). Now pay attention here Todd because I don't want you taking things out of context like all the other idiots and spreading rumors that aren't true. Currently, at my school, Purina and Hill's are given 1 lecture hour each to teach us their take on nutrition. So, in case I haven't made it clear, that is ONE HOUR EACH. Given the fact that both companies donate tons of money to the vet schools (these things aren't cheap to run ya know?), 1 hour of lecture time in 1 class is a perfectly acceptable trade. So, we got 2 whole classes? Who takes the rest of the lectures?????? Board certified veterinary specialists and animal nutrition experts. Most of whom (again, pay attention here) actually PREFER some of the higher quality brands that are often mentinoed here rather than Hill's or Purina.

"If they were truly animal lovers for years you'd think they'd be at least semi-knowledgeable about dog nutrition before hand. "
--Really, Todd? Who says that they're not? You? Dr. Holistic from Texas A&M? Think either of you can say what knowledge all veterinarians have? Think either of you can speak on what extra studying/research any vet or vet student does?

Truly animal lovers? Lol - Let me set you straight, we don't do this for the money. Trust me, it's not as good as you think it is. Compound that with student loan debt that often matches what Medical students have, and it's not even worth it. I (and every other vet student) have to kill myself in school just to get in. Now that I'm in, the stress and difficulty is multiplied 100-fold when compared to my undergraduate work. It's nothing for me to go 2 days with 1 hour of sleep between them. I haven't had more than 2 free weekends since september. I bet you enjoy spring break and thanksgiving yea? I don't. I usually get 1 day of each to do nothing. The rest is studying. Why am I doing all of this? Why do I use my study breaks to get online and try to help those who are distressed b/c their dog is sick? God help you if you think it's for anything other than animal compassoin and welfare. I've met hundreds of breeders, trainers, animal welfare activists, etc... Few of them have matched the compassion I see every day at school (from faculty and students).

First of all, 3 cources in 7 years is not very much at all if you ask me.

Pet food companies may be given only 1 hour each but as you said, they are donating TONS of money to these vet schools. I go to a local dog park with a vet and she feeds her dogs Hills. She says she gets it free as provided by her place of work. What's this tell you???

I'm sorry but I'm not buying your arguement for one second. If most of these nutrition cources are taught by animal nutritionists and specialists which many recommend higher quality foods, why do most vets today still recommend foods like IAMS, Hills, Purina, or Science Diet???

[Mr. Vega]

Not very much huh? Not good enough for you?

Priceless....

3 semesters isn't enough? What is enough? What do you do Todd? Who are YOU to judge?

You're not buying it? Well I'm not selling it. It's a fact. You offer your opinion and critique everything, yet what have you done to contribute? You're an animal lover I presume. Enough of an animal lover to devote your entire life to benefit overall health of animals, promote public health and the bond between humans and animals, and treat animals/pets with equal compassion? Your profile says you're a student. Well there's still time. Change your path. If the veterinary community is so corrupt and they aren't "at least semi-knowledgable" on nutrition, why don't you get off your ass and go to vet school, become a vet, and change it from the inside? Oh, it's just easier to judge from the sidelines huh? Thought so.

So, 3 semesters isn't enough for big Todd ehh? Guess it's not enough that when we graduate we have to be more than proficient in oncology, radiology, opthamology, dentistry, orthopedics, dermatology, cardiology, theriogenology, pathology, and there's still too many more to name. And just to top it off, we have to be equally proficient in all of those fields in canine, feline, bovine, and equine medicine. But hey, guess we should trade all that silly medicine in for classes on dog food right Todd? Just for you buddy!

You want expert opinions on Nutrition? What would you do if you wanted them for yourself? You'd go to an expert in human nutrition wouldn't you? Why are you so critical of general veterinary practitioners for not being an expert in a field just because YOU think they should be? There are individuals who specialize in canine nutrition, I suggest you seek their opinion rather than blow off a bunch of steam about a subject in which you've proven your ignorance.

You wanna know why vets carry Hills or Purina? Wanna know why I'm going to? The Rx diets Todd. I have no intention of selling normal, non-Rx dog food. You let me know when Orijen, Wellness CORE, Blue Buffalo, etc start regularly making Rx diets and I am all on board. This might sound crazy to you, but, for certain disease states, your high protein diets (including your precious RAW Prey model) are not only discouraged, but, completely contraindicated (as in, they will make the disease WORSE). Hill's and Purina are regulary making Rx diets that can be produced and shipped quickly. Do I think normal Hill's or Purina kibble are as good as some of the more premium brands, hell no. But those premium brands will worsen certain patients. Not to mention, THE MAJORITY of pet owners are feeding a pet food that is of equal or lesser quality than Hills or Purina Rx diets anyway, so, these dogs will not experience any drop in quality when given an Rx food. Sorry to say, but, you're the minority. If that upsets you, blame the American public, not the veterinary community.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Mr. Vega

Not very much huh? Not good enough for you?

Priceless....

3 semesters isn't enough? What is enough? What do you do Todd? Who are YOU to judge?

You're not buying it? Well I'm not selling it. It's a fact. You offer your opinion and critique everything, yet what have you done to contribute? You're an animal lover I presume. Enough of an animal lover to devote your entire life to benefit overall health of animals, promote public health and the bond between humans and animals, and treat animals/pets with equal compassion? Your profile says you're a student. Well there's still time. Change your path. If the veterinary community is so corrupt and they aren't "at least semi-knowledgeable" on nutrition, why don't you get off your ass and go to vet school, become a vet, and change it from the inside? Oh, it's just easier to judge from the sidelines huh? Thought so.

So, 3 semesters isn't enough for big Todd ehh? Guess it's not enough that when we graduate we have to be more than proficient in oncology, radiology, opthamology, dentistry, orthopedics, dermatology, cardiology, theriogenology, pathology, and there's still too many more to name. And just to top it off, we have to be equally proficient in all of those fields in canine, feline, bovine, and equine medicine. But hey, guess we should trade all that silly medicine in for classes on dog food right Todd? Just for you buddy!

You want expert opinions on Nutrition? What would you do if you wanted them for yourself? You'd go to an expert in human nutrition wouldn't you? Why are you so critical of general veterinary practitioners for not being an expert in a field just because YOU think they should be? There are individuals who specialize in canine nutrition, I suggest you seek their opinion rather than blow off a bunch of steam about a subject in which you've proven your ignorance.

You wanna know why vets carry Hills or Purina? Wanna know why I'm going to? The Rx diets Todd. I have no intention of selling normal, non-Rx dog food. You let me know when Orijen, Wellness CORE, Blue Buffalo, etc start regularly making Rx diets and I am all on board. This might sound crazy to you, but, for certain disease states, your high protein diets (including your precious RAW Prey model) are not only discouraged, but, completely contraindicated (as in, they will make the disease WORSE). Hill's and Purina are regularly making Rx diets that can be produced and shipped quickly. Do I think normal Hill's or Purina kibble are as good as some of the more premium brands, hell no. But those premium brands will worsen certain patients. Not to mention, THE MAJORITY of pet owners are feeding a pet food that is of equal or lesser quality than Hills or Purina Rx diets anyway, so, these dogs will not experience any drop in quality when given an Rx food. Sorry to say, but, you're the minority. If that upsets you, blame the American public, not the veterinary community.

No I don't think 3 semesters is enough considering vets have to go to school for 7 years. 3 semesters is a small, small chunk of the 7 year duration.

And yes I am seriously considering going to vet school.

I don't think vets should be experts on dog nutrition, I KNOW they should be. Nutrition is the most important thing pertaining to dog wellness! Proper nutrition can eliminate a lot of the diseases and terminal illnesses we see today. I think it's by far the most important thing and what vets should be most knowledgeable about! Funny how vets don't seem to take preventative measures with nutrition rather than waiting for illness to exert itself. I'm not saying the vet industry is all a work or desperate ploy for money or anything, but it DOES make you think. Yes I would go to a nutrition specialist, but I don't rely on my regular doctor to supply me with my regular diet! Furthermore, my doctor wouldn't recommend I eat fast food everyday and then I go to a nutritionist who says to eat chicken breasts and green beans every day! Way too much of a gap there! Translating into the pet retrospective, it's like my vet recommending IAMS and my nutritionist recommending Origin or a raw diet! Polar opposites! Tells me vets aren't learning NEAR enough about proper dog nutrition. I almost wish it was required to have a certified canine nutritionist on staff at every vet joint. The thing that bothers me is that vets don't admit they don't know much about nutrition. They act as if they do and foods like Hills, IAMS, Purina, or Science Diet are just fine and dandy. I don't mean to be disrespectful but it seems like a lot of vets are ignorant on the subject.

I don't buy the Rx deal either. I'm sorry, but I feel it's not only BS but all marketing! There are plenty of quality formulas and home cooked/raw recipes out there that would be just fine in special cases and a hell of a lot healthier too! For example, let's say you have an obese dog. You could feed a Science Diet Rx diet "specifically made to combat obesity" or you could just purchase a quality food on the market which is reduced fat/has added fiber. There "prescription diets" (in my opinion) are NO DIFFERENT than just another formula or variation of what they made to begin with!

And no I DON'T blame the American public, I partially blame the veterinary community for lack of nutritional training and common sense. You guys are the ones who went to vet school for 7 years so it's YOUR responsibility to guide us in the right direction!

[Mr. Vega]

Your ignorance stinks from across the country....

So now you think all Rx diets are all marketing? Again, your ignorance stinks, bad. You have all these claims, yet, where's your proof Todd? Hard data, not internet rumors and opinions. There is real evidence and real data to back up the Rx diets that I recommend and the claims I make. What do you have other than unsubstantiated opinions? Nothing... You have paranoia and a general distrust which leads you to make claims with absolutely no base or logic behind them.

So, big Todd thinks all the emphasis should be on nutrition, huh? Tell that to the owner of the diabetic dog I treated a couple weeks ago who collapsed on her kitchen floor. Tell that to the Army sergeant who brought in a Belgian malinois army dog who was shot through its femur in Iraq and we had to put a plate in its leg. Tell that to the owner of the paralyzed doberman yesterday that I did a CT scan on and found a compressed spinal cord. How bout the Rotte with osteosarcoma...

But it's all due to nutrition, right todd?


I hope you wake up one day. I'm done with you (so don't bother responding because I'm not opening this topic again).

PS: It's 4 years, not 7. Big surprise = Todd doesn't know what he's talking about

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Mr. Vega

Your ignorance stinks from across the country....

So now you think all Rx diets are all marketing? Again, your ignorance stinks, bad. You have all these claims, yet, where's your proof Todd? Hard data, not internet rumors and opinions. There is real evidence and real data to back up the Rx diets that I recommend and the claims I make. What do you have other than unsubstantiated opinions? Nothing... You have paranoia and a general distrust which leads you to make claims with absolutely no base or logic behind them.

So, big Todd thinks all the emphasis should be on nutrition, huh? Tell that to the owner of the diabetic dog I treated a couple weeks ago who collapsed on her kitchen floor. Tell that to the Army sergeant who brought in a Belgian malinois army dog who was shot through its femur in Iraq and we had to put a plate in its leg. Tell that to the owner of the paralyzed doberman yesterday that I did a CT scan on and found a compressed spinal cord. How bout the Rotte with osteosarcoma...

But it's all due to nutrition, right todd?


I hope you wake up one day. I'm done with you (so don't bother responding because I'm not opening this topic again).

First of all, let's stop with the insults. That's not how we communicate on this forum.

I never said that ALL the emphasis should be on nutrition. I merely said nutrition is on the most important aspects. What about all the dogs we see with cancer today? What about all of these ear infections? Heart problems? Kidney problems? Liver problems? Think diet may have something to do with this??? By the way, I bet that diabetic dog wouldn't have collapsed on the kitchen floor had it been on a proper diet prior. Recently someone told me how their dog had diabetes and the vet prescribed a Hills formula I believe for diabetic dogs. Corn was one of the first ingredients! Many other ingredients bad for diabetic patients were in it too. Here a list of grains bad for diabetics;

Avoid types of grains including pasta, rice, barley, corn, wheat and rye and foods that contain ingredients that end in ol or ose. These are mainly types of carbohydrates.

How is this diet good for diabetic patients when it openly has foods bad for diabetics, and even high up in the ingredient list at that???!!!

I'm not saying nutrition is EVERYTHING but it's certainly IS A LOT more important than the vet community makes it out to be!

These Rx diets have hard facts to back them up right? You mean like IAMS does which claims their diet is 100% complete and balanced??? The standards must not be too high! You said yourself you don't recommend regular IAMS brands but those are back up by "hard scientific evidence" too right??? Seems like a bit wishy-washy...

[CorkyMax]

I posted this a couple weeks back and I am still wondering about this ---corn/diabetes!! I do not want any arguments--just like to have an answer--It has bothered me ever since I found out about the prescription diet for diabetes/dogs. Here is my original post:

A Couple of Questions----

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I have 'forced myself' to stay out of this debate but (and everyone knows what I think of commercial dog food--which I am not going to go in to as deeply as I could here)--there is something that bothers me about some of the ingredients in these specialty diets--Hill's for one. This has bothered me long before this debate here started. A while back my daughter's dog had diabetes (which I have myself--so I know a lot about what to eat and not eat!!). I was with her when she took this dog to the vet. The vet brought this bag of 'special dog food' to the counter and I started looking at the ingredients and I was shocked to see that the very 1st and thus main ingredient was corn and I was so surprised--and had that look of disgust on my face (that the vet couldn't help but see) that I said something to the vet---He really had no answer for me and my take on it was that he had no idea about the whole thing---Just selling what he had been 'given' by the company. I am not sure what the brand was anymore but it was prob. Hill's or Science Diet as he does sell these 2 brands. CORN is a no-no for Diabetes 1st of all--It has too many carbs--granted there is a little fiber (really not enough to count) there but not enough to make up for too many carbs! This ingredient can cause blood sugar to go up!! And as far as corn even being good for a normal dog--Corn is about the worst grain/veg. to feed. Plus corn has calories so why would it be for a dog to lose weight. Corn is hard for a dog to digest and is the worst grain for allergies in dogs. Now, of course, my question is WHY would these 'expert nutritionests' even put corn in this "special' dog food!!?? I could prob. give a few answers to that, but I won't---It isn't hard to figure it out! And I also took note that corn gluten meal is also added (along with the main ingredient-ground whole grain corn)in the ingredients of the Hill's Diet that has been mentioned in some of the above posts. I would call this a 'double whammy' and sneaky because if all this corn was added up---A lot of corn!!

Another ingredient I don't find very nutritional is the peanut hulls which the company says is a source of fiber---May be a source of fiber but how nutritious is it!!?? Sounds like a way to use up a human (no pun intended) waste product! Too many sly greedy people trying to make money is what I see. It really pi**es me off that they think I am stupid enough to believe whatever they want to pull--(the dog food companies!!)Of course they don't care anyway!

It is also stated in a post above on the Hill's bag: calories low----Well the corn is not making it low! Because of the statement: low fat---That is what is keeping some of the calories low. Fat has more calories than carbs or protein! FAT= 9 calories per gram; CARBS= 4 calories per gram; PROTEIN= 4 calories per gram. As far as I see it -- the low fat and the fiberous peanut hulls (he*l!-peanut hulls are not a FOOD for humans or dogs!) are keeping some of the calories down. Any fiber content actually 'eliminates' carbs--if you get 'my drift' here!--not even going to try to explain! All in all, I see the corn products being used here as mainly a cheap filler!! And the fiber in the peanut hulls may help do the 'job'---But is just plain wrong to even use! And these hulls are another very cheap filler--NO COST AT ALL!

Don't see potatoes (Wellness Core Reduced Fat) as a very good ingredient for weight loss either but suppose you have to have some 'filling',satisfying ingredient, but think something better could of replaced potatoes. Prob. not much spinach in this but as a rule -- too much spinach is not good for a dog (see the thread on Foods that are Hazardous for your Dog)



There, I've got that off my chest and hopefully I am done with this thread---Sorry! But frankly I am tired of this thread--Period! End of quote!

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[Todd]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

I posted this a couple weeks back and I am still wondering about this ---corn/diabetes!! I do not want any arguments--just like to have an answer--It has bothered me ever since I found out about the prescription diet for diabetes/dogs. Here is my original post:

A Couple of Questions----

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have 'forced myself' to stay out of this debate but (and everyone knows what I think of commercial dog food--which I am not going to go in to as deeply as I could here)--there is something that bothers me about some of the ingredients in these specialty diets--Hill's for one. This has bothered me long before this debate here started. A while back my daughter's dog had diabetes (which I have myself--so I know a lot about what to eat and not eat!!). I was with her when she took this dog to the vet. The vet brought this bag of 'special dog food' to the counter and I started looking at the ingredients and I was shocked to see that the very 1st and thus main ingredient was corn and I was so surprised--and had that look of disgust on my face (that the vet couldn't help but see) that I said something to the vet---He really had no answer for me and my take on it was that he had no idea about the whole thing---Just selling what he had been 'given' by the company. I am not sure what the brand was anymore but it was prob. Hill's or Science Diet as he does sell these 2 brands. CORN is a no-no for Diabetes 1st of all--It has too many carbs--granted there is a little fiber (really not enough to count) there but not enough to make up for too many carbs! This ingredient can cause blood sugar to go up!! And as far as corn even being good for a normal dog--Corn is about the worst grain/veg. to feed. Plus corn has calories so why would it be for a dog to lose weight. Corn is hard for a dog to digest and is the worst grain for allergies in dogs. Now, of course, my question is WHY would these 'expert nutritionests' even put corn in this "special' dog food!!?? I could prob. give a few answers to that, but I won't---It isn't hard to figure it out! And I also took note that corn gluten meal is also added (along with the main ingredient-ground whole grain corn)in the ingredients of the Hill's Diet that has been mentioned in some of the above posts. I would call this a 'double whammy' and sneaky because if all this corn was added up---A lot of corn!!

Another ingredient I don't find very nutritional is the peanut hulls which the company says is a source of fiber---May be a source of fiber but how nutritious is it!!?? Sounds like a way to use up a human (no pun intended) waste product! Too many sly greedy people trying to make money is what I see. It really pi**es me off that they think I am stupid enough to believe whatever they want to pull--(the dog food companies!!)Of course they don't care anyway!

It is also stated in a post above on the Hill's bag: calories low----Well the corn is not making it low! Because of the statement: low fat---That is what is keeping some of the calories low. Fat has more calories than carbs or protein! FAT= 9 calories per gram; CARBS= 4 calories per gram; PROTEIN= 4 calories per gram. As far as I see it -- the low fat and the fiberous peanut hulls (he*l!-peanut hulls are not a FOOD for humans or dogs!) are keeping some of the calories down. Any fiber content actually 'eliminates' carbs--if you get 'my drift' here!--not even going to try to explain! All in all, I see the corn products being used here as mainly a cheap filler!! And the fiber in the peanut hulls may help do the 'job'---But is just plain wrong to even use! And these hulls are another very cheap filler--NO COST AT ALL!

Don't see potatoes (Wellness Core Reduced Fat) as a very good ingredient for weight loss either but suppose you have to have some 'filling',satisfying ingredient, but think something better could of replaced potatoes. Prob. not much spinach in this but as a rule -- too much spinach is not good for a dog (see the thread on Foods that are Hazardous for your Dog)



There, I've got that off my chest and hopefully I am done with this thread---Sorry! But frankly I am tired of this thread--Period! End of quote!

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Yes you were the one I was talking about. Corn and diabetes DO NOT go hand and hand. Corn is bad for people or dogs with diabetes. This is why I feel that these Rx diets are all marketing and a way to get there foods into vet offices.

[Lara's mom]

When you post a thread in the forum, you have to expect that there are going to be people who have differing opinions. The "no arguments please" is exclusionary. You can't post something and than assume that only people who agree with your point of view have a right to reply.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

When you post a thread in the forum, you have to expect that there are going to be people who have differing opinions. The "no arguments please" is exclusionary. You can't post something and than assume that only people who agree with your point of view have a right to reply.

I thin she means no name calling, fighting, etc. Just a formal, civilized debate is far different than a fight or name calling session or whatever.

[CorkyMax]

Exactly---I see you already said it for me, Todd. I should of had the word 'heated' in there! Was just thinking about 'debates'--memory not good on this--long time ago--but think in high school they had some kind of rules on how to debate (Safely?)It would be nice if everybody contributed in a way that it was a discussion to try and find the best answers and not 'stuff it down somebody's throat!' A debate --not an argument! This is a FORUM---My dictionary: Forum-assembly for discussing questions of public interest. Maybe there should be some rules on debating in this forum!

[Lara's mom]

I have very seldom seen anyone resort to name calling and other nastiness. When it happened, the offending members were banned as I recall.

[Mr. Vega]

Yogi,

May I request that you close this topic as well? This is inflammatory material that will do nothing more than provoke controversy. It doesn't matter if the OP gives a disclaimer about how they don't want it to start any arguments. The very nature of these articles will always bring the same result.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Mr. Vega

Yogi,

May I request that you close this topic as well? This is inflammatory material that will do nothing more than provoke controversy. It doesn't matter if the OP gives a disclaimer about how they don't want it to start any arguments. The very nature of these articles will always bring the same result.

Why do you want this thread closed??? Because everyone's not agreeing with you? In a forum everyone is going to have their own opinions and you can't just close a thread because you don't agree with those opinions. If you don't want to hear from other people's perspectives, don't view this thread.

[Yogi]

I have to agree, I have pointed this out previously that feeding, nutrition etc is a topic that simply put only brings out the bad in people. Each has their own and whether some like it or not, it is no ones place to preach that their way is right and the other persons is wrong. Unfortunately, this is nearly always the end result. Too many posts starting with links that simply are opinions and in turn everyone assumes since it is in print it therefore must be fact. For every pro argument there will be a con argument on the web. Since both are not posted, it is only right to close these threads to avoid these type of replies.