[Yogi]

[QUOTE=Todd;83857]I understand what you're saying, but I have to respectfully disagree. The skin has the extra fat needed for a cancer patient and is natural. A wolf in the wild would eat the skin, wouldn't they? I am a raw feeder and you feed some raw too, so just think of it this way... The skin is a healthy fat for a dog of any kind, especially with cancer. Maybe not a human, but for a dog.





Actually, no. Wolves will eat out the core of the belly and organs leaving the carcass and bones.

[Tucker]

Lots to think about here - thank you guys! I guess I was unclear when mentioning the chemo - if he is eligible for the antiangiogenesis trial (which may begin in 4 weeks) he really doesn't have time for chemo first since the dogs must be off chemo for 21 days prior to beginning the trial. I was hoping that would have been an option but there won't be time...
That K9 Immunity/Transfer Factor looks like it could be a promising option. He is now on fish oil, Pet-Tinic (prescribed by vet for anemia), Yunnan Paiyao (prescribed by oncologist to inhibit bleeding), milk thistle (liver enzymes are high), Berte's Immune Blend (just started this) - I don't want to double up ingredients so will have to really keep an eye on what else I give him - may switch out the immune blend and give him the K9.
Tonight I did give him some canned salmon (it does have salt added but I rinsed it to get some off) with the EVO. The vet has also advised high protein and is in favor of EVO but she isn't high on the additional fat which I have read is beneficial. I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to increase the protein and fat without him gaining much more weight?? I was actually originally aiming to increase his weight so he would have some "cushion" if he starts losing his appetite and going downhill. If I feed some chunks of beef roast or ground beef/chicken should I decrease the kibble? Is the fish oil (giving 6 capsules a day) enough additional fat or do you think he should get more? Thanks for pointing me towards the animal proteins rather than just cheeses and eggs. We have always given him some fresh foods (he loves carrots, apples, bananas) but not additional protein. So far so good as far as his appetite and alertness. We did a short walk today in addition to his usual running around on his own in the back yard
He is going back to the regular vet this week to get her comments on the trial we are considering & to weigh him so will hopefully get some more input then.
Thank you again for any and all information, comments, suggestions etc.!

[CorkyMax]

Todd/quote]
I understand what you're saying, but I have to respectfully disagree. The skin has the extra fat needed for a cancer patient and is natural. A wolf in the wild would eat the skin, wouldn't they? I am a raw feeder and you feed some raw too, so just think of it this way... The skin is a healthy fat for a dog of any kind, especially with cancer. Maybe not a human, but for a dog.

Some quotes off the net: • Turkey Skin
Every Thanksgiving, vets are certain to get calls from dogs who have participated in the traditional Thanksgiving turkey dinner. Turkey skin can cause acute pancreatis in dogs.
Yep, its Thanksgiving! A time to be thankful for all we have, for those around us we love, including our canine friends. Many people share the family feast with their dog in an offering of thanks and love. While this is an innocent and seemingly gracious and loving gesture, the truth is, it's more loving not to share your holiday meals with your dog. While it may seem that a little bit of turkey skin here and a little bit of stuffing there wouldn't hurt, we know how quickly the pounds can add up over the holiday season. The same rules that apply to us apply to our pets. A diet high in fat and being overweight is very unhealthy for them.

Pancreatitis is just one of the problems that occur with a high fat and unhealthy diet. The "typical" pancreatitis victim is middle-aged or older and overweight. It's common in both sexes, and very often the family has just had a party or a big holiday meal when this disease strikes. So, if your pet is often one that gets a table scrap here, a potato chip there, extra caution should be taken, as his possibility for an accute pacreatitis attack could already be high. However this doesn't OK you to indulge him if it's "just this once" or "just for the holiday." Things can turn bad quickly and with the hustle and bustle of the holidays; you may not be as alert to the first symptoms, or may pass them off as just nerves, stress or having a little too much turkey or all the family at the home for the holiday.

The pancreas produces digestive enzymes that break down food so the body can digest it. These enzymes are carefully handled by the pancreas in order to prevent them from damaging the pancreas itself or surrounding tissue. If they break down for any reason, the result is leakage of enzymes, which damage the pancreas and any surrounding tissue they reach. This breakdown is called pancreatitis. Symptoms include loss of appetite, severe and frequent vomiting, diarrhea that may contain blood, reluctance to walk, weakness, pain, crying, restlessness, irritability, or refusing to eat. Many people know their dog is sick, but may be confused as to whether or not it's serious because of a lack of symptoms or symptoms being vague and mild.

Pancreatitis may occur only once in a dog's life or it can become chronic, a condition that returns over and over again. It can quickly become fatal or just be a mild attack of pain that is over in a few hours or a day or so. It can cause serious side effects including shock, blood clotting disorders, heart arrythmias, and liver or kidney damage. So if your pet exhibits ANY of these signs, even if mild at first, get him to your vet immediately! Of course with it being a holiday, many animal clinics may be closed - another VERY valid reason to not be so sharing with your pets this Thanksgiving. And just in case, make sure you have an emergency number for your vet or the emergency vet clinic number handy for when your vet's office is closed.


My friend mentioned yesterday, while preparing the turkey for our feast, her dog had died two years prior from pancreatitis. It was caused by feeding her dog turkey, that was the cause of death as per her Veterinarian. The Veterinarian also told her that they have so many dogs die at this time of year due to this horrible attack on a dogs pancreas.

Here I was already planning Hank's big Thanksgiving meal. I'll be thankful not having to watch my dog in pain. I was trying to remember if I had feed him turkey last year...I believe I did...I needed to find out if this was a myth or a fact and I was quite surprised to learn what pancreatitis is and what foods cause this.




Pancreatitis = Dehydration =Diabetes = Death
All this from a piece of turkey?

Well research is saying that it is okay to give your dog a piece of well cooked turkey...but stay away from giving them that golden brown well spiced piece of skin, actually any poultry skin can lead to gastric distress and pancreatitis, a serious attack on the pancreas that causes vomiting and dehydration.

Turkey skins, bones and fat are what causes pancratitis...so don't be tempted to mix that fat with the dry food or sneak the skin to your best friend, chances are you'll have a sick guy on your hands. Just to show him some thankful praise for his good deeds make him his own special feast that is good for him and one you can enjoy with him.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Tucker

Lots to think about here - thank you guys! I guess I was unclear when mentioning the chemo - if he is eligible for the antiangiogenesis trial (which may begin in 4 weeks) he really doesn't have time for chemo first since the dogs must be off chemo for 21 days prior to beginning the trial. I was hoping that would have been an option but there won't be time...
That K9 Immunity/Transfer Factor looks like it could be a promising option. He is now on fish oil, Pet-Tinic (prescribed by vet for anemia), Yunnan Paiyao (prescribed by oncologist to inhibit bleeding), milk thistle (liver enzymes are high), Berte's Immune Blend (just started this) - I don't want to double up ingredients so will have to really keep an eye on what else I give him - may switch out the immune blend and give him the K9.
Tonight I did give him some canned salmon (it does have salt added but I rinsed it to get some off) with the EVO. The vet has also advised high protein and is in favor of EVO but she isn't high on the additional fat which I have read is beneficial. I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to increase the protein and fat without him gaining much more weight?? I was actually originally aiming to increase his weight so he would have some "cushion" if he starts losing his appetite and going downhill. If I feed some chunks of beef roast or ground beef/chicken should I decrease the kibble? Is the fish oil (giving 6 capsules a day) enough additional fat or do you think he should get more? Thanks for pointing me towards the animal proteins rather than just cheeses and eggs. We have always given him some fresh foods (he loves carrots, apples, bananas) but not additional protein. So far so good as far as his appetite and alertness. We did a short walk today in addition to his usual running around on his own in the back yard
He is going back to the regular vet this week to get her comments on the trial we are considering & to weigh him so will hopefully get some more input then.
Thank you again for any and all information, comments, suggestions etc.!

I would take a littl,e evo off when feeding other things. You do make a good point though about having a little cushion room if she looses her appitite during chemo. don't worry about a few extra pounds but you obviously dont want her getting too overweight. just keep an eye on her appitite and weight and take it from there. it's almost a trial and error thing because all dogs are different.

[Yogi]

One thing to watch for in the case of an older dog and going through what it is at this point is allowing it to be too much overweight. Though common sense says based on the chemo and the odds that the dog may in fact lose some of its appetite there is an underlying risk if the dog gets to heavy that it could end up diabetic. Overweight dogs are prone to diabetes. Minimizing the weight or in this case how much the dog is overweight would need to be addressed.
Just an fyi from someone who has rescued overweight dogs and have had to deal with this issue. Good luck.

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by Tucker

Lots to think about here - thank you guys! I guess I was unclear when mentioning the chemo - if he is eligible for the antiangiogenesis trial (which may begin in 4 weeks) he really doesn't have time for chemo first since the dogs must be off chemo for 21 days prior to beginning the trial. I was hoping that would have been an option but there won't be time...
That K9 Immunity/Transfer Factor looks like it could be a promising option. He is now on fish oil, Pet-Tinic (prescribed by vet for anemia), Yunnan Paiyao (prescribed by oncologist to inhibit bleeding), milk thistle (liver enzymes are high), I give milk thistle for a month each year too but be aware that it can give false readings on bloodwork. Also Vitamin C should not be given for about a week before bloodwork--esp. if doing a CBC check. Berte's Immune Blend (just started this) - I don't want to double up ingredients so will have to really keep an eye on what else I give him - may switch out the immune blend and give him the K9.
Tonight I did give him some canned salmon (it does have salt added but I rinsed it to get some off) with the EVO. Check out the canned mackerel label-In comparison to the same brand I get--Chicken of the Sea--the mackerel is better nutrientwise and is cheaper too! Also for a double bonus (Omega 3)--Walmart carries eggs called Great Day Naturals All Natural Omega-3 (lt yelow carton)-350mg Omega-3 per egg--I think Eggland eggs only have 100mg per egg.--And the All Natural is cheaper than Eggland--Costs $1.72 a dozen here for the ones I get. Lol, after switching to these eggs--I can't stand the look of the cheaper egg yolks--so pale yellow compared to a healthy rich looking orangish color! The vet has also advised high protein and is in favor of EVO but she isn't high on the additional fat which I have read is beneficial.Why is your vet against the fat? What is the finding you have read that says it is beneficial? Was it just in regards of putting on more weight!? If so I sure would eliminate most of it! First thing I want to clarify here is that I am no expert (nutritionist, etc). This is what I am thinking--If your vet is against all the fat--Is it because of the pancreatitis possibility? In order to not have your dog not gain so much weight (But inform me 1st about the fat issue with the vet)--It sounds like you will have to cut down on either the fat or the protein. If it were me I would be leary of the fat--See post I just did last night in this thread here about pancreatitis. Fat is where the most calories are too. I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to increase the protein and fat without him gaining much more weight?? I was actually originally aiming to increase his weight so he would have some "cushion" if he starts losing his appetite and going downhill. If I feed some chunks of beef roast or ground beef/chicken should I decrease the kibble?I would ask your vet about that! And remember that the cheaper hamburger is full of fat--too much as a rule. And as far as chunks of beef and other meats-Buy lean cuts and cut off the fat hunks you do see. Venison would be the best meat you could feed (if you can get access to it--hunters here!) It is the best for the combination of lower calories-lower fat-and high protein. Boil a turkey--add a couple tblespoons of vinegar (helps get the calcium out of the bones and available for your use.) Do not add salt. When done--save the water/stock and add to your dog food or other way of giving--good stuff there including calcium from the bones and prob. protein, etc. too--JUST REFRIGERATE THIS LIQUID SO YOU CAN SKIM OFF THE HARDENED FAT AND THROW AWAY THE FAT!! I suggest, after it has cooled enough to put in refrig. to put it in a container that is a little narrower at the top (not a bottle) so you can be able to spoon off the fat easier and quicker. Throw away the skin! Cut up the turkey in portion sizes and place in even sandwich bags and freeze for future use for your protein additions. Turkey (done this way) is a good lower calorie-high protein-low fat if done the way I explained! It would be next best to the venison. Is the fish oil (giving 6 capsules a day) enough additional fat or do you think he should get more? This sounds like a lot of fish oil--Course I don't know how much Omega 3 is in each capsule--What the strength is? I know from your posts that you have done a lot of research on things. But do you know you need to give Vitamin E to compensate for the fish oil depleting this important vitamin!? You will have to check out how much you should give based on the amount of fish oil you are giving! Thanks for pointing me towards the animal proteins rather than just cheeses and eggs.I would quit the cheese as it is high fat-high salt-high calorie! Milk products are not the best for dogs to digest either. The egg is a good thing--My 2 'boys' get an egg just about every morning---Most complete protein of any other food and if you get the egg with the Omega-3--'Double good!' We have always given him some fresh foods (he loves carrots, apples, bananas) but not additional protein. So far so good as far as his appetite and alertness. We did a short walk today in addition to his usual running around on his own in the back yard
He is going back to the regular vet this week to get her comments on the trial we are considering & to weigh him so will hopefully get some more input then.
Thank you again for any and all information, comments, suggestions etc.!

Don't know what a dog nutritionist charges but it would prob. be a way to get a 'menu' for your individule dog and his condition! A lot of things you research on the net, etc. are not giving you the 'exact' info you need. You have to make sure things are balanced--If you feed too much of a good thing--It may upset the balance of nutrients---If too much protein-how does it affect the liver/kidneys? Too much fat can cause pancreatitis. And as far as protein/meat---This can 'drain' the calcium from the body!--So how much calcium to give without going overboard either way--Too much is not good either so it needs to balanced according to the amount of meat, etc. Then if you give calcium (calcium citrate is best and never give calcium with oyster shells!)--It has to have enough Vitamin D3 and magnesium in ratios to even be absorbed! As far as a good source for calcium--crushed egg shells is a good cheap way to go--Put egg shell calcium/dogs in your browser. Another little hint--Best not to give calcium same time as Vitamin E as they fight each other!--Wait at least an hr. in between. Hmmm, wondering if fish oil and calcium should be given at same time either--Not sure-just a suspicion. I know I am confusing things here but you can see what I mean about balancing things out---You almost need a nutritionist to make sure you do things right! And if you are thinking about seeing a dog nutritionist--Your vet could recommend one. Also if considering this--Make a long list of the questions you want answered as trying to remember everything while carrying on a conversation is going to be easy to miss something. I would also take notes of the nutritionest's answers right by the questions you have on your paper!

If you could get this book or a similar one (One that contains these figures for each food you are looking up--calories-sodium--protein--fat and should give carbohydrates too but not as important for what you need right now) The book (lg. pocket type book) best would be The Complete Book of Food Counts by Corinne t. Netzer. I got mine at Walmart --quite a few years ago and it is the 5th edition---(prob. been updated many times since then but still give the basic info you want no matter the edition!) You may be able to find this book listed at Amazon.com or Ebay or maybe your library could find it too. Be aware that the newer versions might have a slight different wording for the title (I doubt it but if any trouble finding it because of such a thing)--Try dif. wording and maybe just search by the author!

I would check out about beef heart and beef kidney too. (even a little liver but stay away from beef liver that is not organic--The liver is where all the toxins from the body collect and you know how the beef 'on the hoof' is treated by 'money-greedy producers!' You don't want to give too much of this rich meat but the dog should have a little. I wouldn't give more than a bout 2-3 oz. at a time and not every day--maybe 3 times a week--Check it out! Check on if it is very advisable as far as your dog having a high liver count and I wouldn't rely on the 'net' for the best answer --For 1 thing I think there is disagreement on whether to give protein--Think it has changed over the years--I know it use to be not advisable to give protein to dogs with kidney disease and now they are saying that has changed and protein is good. Do a lot of research on that and maybe your vet can even tell you on this.

[Tucker]

As you all are pointing out, lots of things to consider here - You'll have me home cooking his food pretty soon I did give him some lean beef tonight with the EVO and next plan on cooking a turkey breast in the crockpot - will have to drag out my Food Saver and pack up individual packages to freeze - we happened to be going to the library and they do not have The Complete Book of Food Counts but I got a couple other ones and Amazon carries it so plan on putting in an order once I decide which others to get... we will discuss his diet/nutritionist with the vet this week; I am not sure why she was leery of too much additional fat - so far he hasn't gained too miuch weight but it is something we will really have to watch - his appetite is extremely good (likes all these extra goodies added to his food).
It is recommended to give about 400mg. of vitamin E when using flax oil - that is an ingredient in the Berte's Immune blend so that is covered. I have read recommendations of both 1 capsule of flax oil per 10 lbs. and 1 capsule
(1000mg) per 20 lbs. for sick dogs so was going down the middle with 6 capsules. We are using Eggland's best eggs and will double check the omega 3content - we get them at Costco but will check out Walmart. Those eggs are such an easy way to give both protein and omega 3 FA.

Here are a couple out of many of the cancer diet recommendations I had found that mention fat:

...."For a canine cancer patient, any commercial dry food should be supplemented with additional animal protein sources. Feel free to add canned sardines (best), cottage cheese, eggs and just about any kind of meat such as hamburger or ground turkey. High fat content is good. Some vets advocate a raw diet, while some say it should be cooked. More important than cooked or raw is the amount of animal-based protein and fats. Keep in mind, dogs are primarily carnivores. They do best on the diet they evolved to eat."

..."Fats
Not only do dogs have metabolism differences with carbohydrates, but they also show abnormalities in lipid metabolism. These abnormalities contribute to
immune suppression. Malignant cells cannot use lipids for energy, so Dr. Ogilvie suggests adding much more fat to a dogs diet, and in particular, the essential fatty acid, Omega-3. He not only states that Omega-3 fatty acids will help a dog with energy, but can actually help stop tumor growth.
Foods rich in Omega-3 include Flaxseed Oil, salmon and other cold water fishes. He does suggest to limit the amount of Omega-6 fatty acids, as it has proven in his tests that these oils can cause cancer to grow faster. Those oils would include GLA's, or primrose oils, borage oil and black current oil."

I am sure I forgot to mention something. It has been a bad day since I had to break the news about Tucker to my son who has been out of the country - was not going to tell him while they were on vacation. Again, thanks to everyone for all your suggestions and things I need to research further - I wish I could just devote a solid week to studying and researching stuff. Now to start in on those library books!

[Lara's mom]

Cancer is a very uncertain thing. You are doing everything humanly possible to give your dog the best possible chance to survive. I wish there were more pet parents in the world who are as loving and caring as you are.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

Todd/quote]
I understand what you're saying, but I have to respectfully disagree. The skin has the extra fat needed for a cancer patient and is natural. A wolf in the wild would eat the skin, wouldn't they? I am a raw feeder and you feed some raw too, so just think of it this way... The skin is a healthy fat for a dog of any kind, especially with cancer. Maybe not a human, but for a dog.

Some quotes off the net: • Turkey Skin
Every Thanksgiving, vets are certain to get calls from dogs who have participated in the traditional Thanksgiving turkey dinner. Turkey skin can cause acute pancreatis in dogs.
Yep, its Thanksgiving! A time to be thankful for all we have, for those around us we love, including our canine friends. Many people share the family feast with their dog in an offering of thanks and love. While this is an innocent and seemingly gracious and loving gesture, the truth is, it's more loving not to share your holiday meals with your dog. While it may seem that a little bit of turkey skin here and a little bit of stuffing there wouldn't hurt, we know how quickly the pounds can add up over the holiday season. The same rules that apply to us apply to our pets. A diet high in fat and being overweight is very unhealthy for them.

Pancreatitis is just one of the problems that occur with a high fat and unhealthy diet. The "typical" pancreatitis victim is middle-aged or older and overweight. It's common in both sexes, and very often the family has just had a party or a big holiday meal when this disease strikes. So, if your pet is often one that gets a table scrap here, a potato chip there, extra caution should be taken, as his possibility for an accute pacreatitis attack could already be high. However this doesn't OK you to indulge him if it's "just this once" or "just for the holiday." Things can turn bad quickly and with the hustle and bustle of the holidays; you may not be as alert to the first symptoms, or may pass them off as just nerves, stress or having a little too much turkey or all the family at the home for the holiday.

The pancreas produces digestive enzymes that break down food so the body can digest it. These enzymes are carefully handled by the pancreas in order to prevent them from damaging the pancreas itself or surrounding tissue. If they break down for any reason, the result is leakage of enzymes, which damage the pancreas and any surrounding tissue they reach. This breakdown is called pancreatitis. Symptoms include loss of appetite, severe and frequent vomiting, diarrhea that may contain blood, reluctance to walk, weakness, pain, crying, restlessness, irritability, or refusing to eat. Many people know their dog is sick, but may be confused as to whether or not it's serious because of a lack of symptoms or symptoms being vague and mild.

Pancreatitis may occur only once in a dog's life or it can become chronic, a condition that returns over and over again. It can quickly become fatal or just be a mild attack of pain that is over in a few hours or a day or so. It can cause serious side effects including shock, blood clotting disorders, heart arrythmias, and liver or kidney damage. So if your pet exhibits ANY of these signs, even if mild at first, get him to your vet immediately! Of course with it being a holiday, many animal clinics may be closed - another VERY valid reason to not be so sharing with your pets this Thanksgiving. And just in case, make sure you have an emergency number for your vet or the emergency vet clinic number handy for when your vet's office is closed.


My friend mentioned yesterday, while preparing the turkey for our feast, her dog had died two years prior from pancreatitis. It was caused by feeding her dog turkey, that was the cause of death as per her Veterinarian. The Veterinarian also told her that they have so many dogs die at this time of year due to this horrible attack on a dogs pancreas.

Here I was already planning Hank's big Thanksgiving meal. I'll be thankful not having to watch my dog in pain. I was trying to remember if I had feed him turkey last year...I believe I did...I needed to find out if this was a myth or a fact and I was quite surprised to learn what pancreatitis is and what foods cause this.




Pancreatitis = Dehydration =Diabetes = Death
All this from a piece of turkey?

Well research is saying that it is okay to give your dog a piece of well cooked turkey...but stay away from giving them that golden brown well spiced piece of skin, actually any poultry skin can lead to gastric distress and pancreatitis, a serious attack on the pancreas that causes vomiting and dehydration.

Turkey skins, bones and fat are what causes pancratitis...so don't be tempted to mix that fat with the dry food or sneak the skin to your best friend, chances are you'll have a sick guy on your hands. Just to show him some thankful praise for his good deeds make him his own special feast that is good for him and one you can enjoy with him.

I understand what you've provided, but u must remember that the incidents here happened to mostly dog who probably only had turkey and its skin occasionally like for a Thanksgiving dinner or something. These dogs are not eating this every day like some dogs in which this is their predominant diet. Although the exact causes of this condition has yet to be discovered, I believe that in these cases a sudden gorgeing fat from the skin of the turkey could have almost shocked the system in a sense and caused the problem. Dogs are animals that require much higher levels of fat than humans especially those with cancer so it is my ersonal belief that the skins would help and not hurt. I feed my dog a raw diet as do many others and a lot of people including myself feed the skins in avaliable as well, just like what a wold in the wild would eat. If you're still worried, maybe take some skin off but still leave a bit for that extra fat. There are certain breeds suseptable to this condition though including Schnauzers, Yorkshire and Silky Terriers, miniature poodles, labs, and cocker spaniels. With these dog you may want to consider slightly lowering the fat in their diet though and maybe take some skin off but still leave on a bit. You may also want to lower the fat if your dog is on any of these meds;

We know that certain drugs and chemicals can cause pancreatitis in pets and humans. One group of these drugs are certain insecticides (organophosphates). Others that we suspect may have caused cases of pancreatitis include diuretics (furosemide), hormones (estrogen), certain antibiotics (metronidazole, tetracycline, nitrofurantoin and sulfonamides) long acting antacids (cimetidine, ranitidine), Tylenol (acetaminophen).

If your dog has a history of this disorder then and only then r lower fat levels recommended.

Also, don't shock the system with too much fat at once. Slowly ease more and more in.

Don't let the dog become overweight or the chances of this disorder r increased.

So I would still feed this dog with cancer the skin but ease her into it. BUT, has she had this issue in the past or in her family that u know of? Does she have any of the other suseptabilities above? If not, I say feed the skins but gradually introduce them.

[CorkyMax]

Todd/quote]There are certain breeds suseptable to this condition though including Schnauzers, Yorkshire and Silky Terriers, miniature poodles, labs, and cocker spaniels.Yep and my pure cocker, Max had an issue with too much fat and got very sick! I didn't even realize at first what was going on and he ended up dehydrated and having 'mini' seizures because of it before I finally got him to the vet. It is a long story and happened when he was only a year or so old. With these dog you may want to consider slightly lowering the fat in their diet though and maybe take some skin off but still leave on a bit. You may also want to lower the fat if your dog is on any of these meds;

We know that certain drugs and chemicals can cause pancreatitis in pets and humans. One group of these drugs are certain insecticides (organophosphates). Others that we suspect may have caused cases of pancreatitis include diuretics (furosemide),OH NO!! As you may know-Corky is on this for his heart condition! At least it isn't Max as I would start worrying more. Good to know this though and I'll have to keep watch on Corky's poop! hormones (estrogen), certain antibiotics (metronidazole, tetracycline, nitrofurantoin and sulfonamides) long acting antacids (cimetidine, ranitidine), Tylenol (acetaminophen).

If your dog has a history of this disorder then and only then r lower fat levels recommended.

Also, don't shock the system with too much fat at once. Slowly ease more and more in.

Don't let the dog become overweight or the chances of this disorder r increased.

So I would still feed this dog with cancer the skin but ease her into it. BUT, has she had this issue in the past or in her family that u know of? Does she have any of the other suseptabilities above? If not, I say feed the skins but gradually introduce them. Why not feed other fats instead---Why take a chance! Of course cooking/boiling the turkey would take some of the fat out of the skin but like you said I wouldn't for sure --'Go hog wild' on this turkey fat! I don't think a dog with cancer would do very well also having pancreatitis--double whammy!

[Mr. Vega]

Originally Posted by Tucker

Our beautiful almost 11 year old yellow labbie was just diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma. He has had xrays and ultrasound which show a large tumor in his spleen which spread to the liver. Symptoms were out of the blue (stopped eating and lethargic for 1 day). The oncologist says surgery and chemo could add a few montlhs but we really don't think putting him thru all that stress and pain would give him a good quality of life for the time he has. He is not in pain now, only seems to pant a little more than normal due to pressure. He is on meds for anemia and the oncologist added a Chinese herb called yunnan paiyao to stop bleeding (which is what she said would cause his death very peacefully & likely in about a month). We are feeding him a high protein, high fat diet along with fish oil. Sorry for this long post - just wonder abut anyone elses experiences or recommendations :-(.

Hello Tucker,

I've been taking lots of tests and then was away for a week doing a conference and then finally a little vacation, so, I wasn't aware of this post before now. I must say, I like your initial attitude about all of this. A Hemangiosarc that originates from the spleen and then spreads to the liver (as you already know) carries a very poor prognosis. I don't doubt that you've researched the crap out of this so I won't bore you with how it develops and spreads. I can tell you that the MST (mean survival time) for this situation is usually around weeks to a month or so. Keep in mind, that's just the mean. So, your guy may just go a little longer. I admire your diligence in finding appropriate diets for this little guy, but, I don't want you to get your hopes up in thinking that a certain diet will take care of this. I'm not sure how much time your spending looking up this stuff (as this topic has taken the usual turn down the diet road), because I believe just being with him and spending time with him will be more worthwhile in the long run. As you already stated, the doxorubicin (chemo) really just adds a month or two (at best) to his life and that extra time isn't always pleasant time for the dog.

If you want, PM me for any extra info or questions that you haven't been able to find the answers for. I can always shoot a line to some of the oncologists to the small animal hospital.

[Tucker]

UGH! Have had log in problems - had to download a new browser then got knocked out when I tried to send my last 2 responses – after the 1st knock off saved the post in Word so will try this again….
Just to be on the extra safe side think I will avoid poultry skin since he is already getting additional fat and he doesn't need the possibility of more stress on his system. We had the vet visit yesterday and he has gained 3 pounds - will keep watch to make sure he doesn't gain much more, if any (he is now 83lbs). That was the vet's concern about fat - to make sure he remains a healthy weight. She is all for more protein - we can increase his canned EVO or add egg, cottage cheese, poultry, salmon etc. but cautioned to watch for trouble digesting beef - if no problems that is ok to use. Unfortunately we don't have access to venison but will use the other protein sources available. As long as the Evo comprises at least 50% of his diet there is no need to worry about balance (whew!). She also recommended additional antioxidants. She was enthusiastic about him possibly getting in the antiangiogenic trial (thanks Todd!!). They have you discontinue some holistic type meds for the trial and I really do want to continue the yunnan paiyo but she felt this may be ok since it doesn't really treat the disease.
Mr. Vega – unfortunately,we are well aware of the predicted 1 month life expectancy due to the spread of the hemangiosarcoma; We felt that due to this spread it was not in his best interests to undergo surgery and chemo since the extra few months it may allow would be mostly in pain or under stress. I do disagree though that we should just basically take him home and enjoy the time left; the diet adjustments seem to be agreeing with him and are not hurting his chances - plus we feel that we are possibly helping him. Our vet has said they can give the diagnosis and possible life expectancy but they do not have a crystal ball. So far he remains a happy dog. No one who sees him can believe the prognosis due to his continued exuberance. Basically we are realistic but still have hope that we can improve his chances of remaining active and happy and be with us a little longer than anticipated. In addition, he will need to be in good enough shape to enter the trial. We will meet with them about all their conditions ahead of time but it remains a possibility.
I know it might seem like I have been totally obsessed with the diet and supplements from my posts but it has not been overly time consuming - we are now in pretty much of a routine. I really do appreciate your offer to contact other oncologists if I have further questions. I may have some after finding out more about the trial - thank you for the offer!

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Tucker

UGH! Have had log in problems - had to download a new browser then got knocked out when I tried to send my last 2 responses – after the 1st knock off saved the post in Word so will try this again….
Just to be on the extra safe side think I will avoid poultry skin since he is already getting additional fat and he doesn't need the possibility of more stress on his system. We had the vet visit yesterday and he has gained 3 pounds - will keep watch to make sure he doesn't gain much more, if any (he is now 83lbs). That was the vet's concern about fat - to make sure he remains a healthy weight. She is all for more protein - we can increase his canned EVO or add egg, cottage cheese, poultry, salmon etc. but cautioned to watch for trouble digesting beef - if no problems that is ok to use. Unfortunately we don't have access to venison but will use the other protein sources available. As long as the Evo comprises at least 50% of his diet there is no need to worry about balance (whew!). She also recommended additional antioxidants. She was enthusiastic about him possibly getting in the antiangiogenic trial (thanks Todd!!). They have you discontinue some holistic type meds for the trial and I really do want to continue the yunnan paiyo but she felt this may be ok since it doesn't really treat the disease.
Mr. Vega – unfortunately,we are well aware of the predicted 1 month life expectancy due to the spread of the hemangiosarcoma; We felt that due to this spread it was not in his best interests to undergo surgery and chemo since the extra few months it may allow would be mostly in pain or under stress. I do disagree though that we should just basically take him home and enjoy the time left; the diet adjustments seem to be agreeing with him and are not hurting his chances - plus we feel that we are possibly helping him. Our vet has said they can give the diagnosis and possible life expectancy but they do not have a crystal ball. So far he remains a happy dog. No one who sees him can believe the prognosis due to his continued exuberance. Basically we are realistic but still have hope that we can improve his chances of remaining active and happy and be with us a little longer than anticipated. In addition, he will need to be in good enough shape to enter the trial. We will meet with them about all their conditions ahead of time but it remains a possibility.
I know it might seem like I have been totally obsessed with the diet and supplements from my posts but it has not been overly time consuming - we are now in pretty much of a routine. I really do appreciate your offer to contact other oncologists if I have further questions. I may have some after finding out more about the trial - thank you for the offer!

Sounds like your dog's doing very well with your current holistic treatments and diet! If you are looking for some more exotic meats/protein sources like venison you may consider ordering some online. They do sell frozen game meat online which they will ship to you frozen. Do you know a hunter? Many people who feed exotic meats to their dogs get it from a hunter (especially venison). Organ meat is great too. Here is a site I will give you. It is mostly for those feeding a prey model raw diet but they also carry some ground products that can be cooked in your situation. Just make sure it isn't whole ground meats because these include ground bone and should not be cooked. Look for organ meat or boneless meat. You could probably work something out with them. They have ground organ meat including pork heart, kidney, and liver. Not sure if you can buy these locally or not. Depends on where you're from. Try an Asian market. They are usually very inexpensive and carry these types of items.

http//:www.prey4pets.com

I was just reading several articles the other night that said that red meat has not only been linked to contribute to causing cancer but also contributing to its progression. This was in humans though, not dogs. I looked into this more with dogs and discovered that this does NOT apply to dogs. Red meat is very essential to dogs unlike humans;

Jesse Dallas writes that Processed foods and drugs have seriously depleted the natural vitality and immune systems of many pets. Dogs and cats are anatomically very different to humans. Their intestinal tract, for example is only about half as long as a human's, and food is therefore processed and assimilated very differently. Whereas large amounts of red meat can cause cancer in humans, a lack of raw red meat in an animal's diet can lead to serious health problems.

What formula of EVO are you feeding? If you're not already doing this, I'd recommend trying the red meat formula in the morning which includes lamb and buffalo just to get some more exotic meats or protein sources in there while supplementing with meats easier to get a hold of such as your chicken and turkey.

They also have the canned EVO canned foods that you obviously feed which are great as well because some are up tp 95% pure meat. This is also a more convenient way to get a hold of those more exotic meats like venison. What formula(s) of EVO canned foods do you feed? What other canned formulas are available at the location where you purchase it?

Good luck and I'm very, very glad your vet is supporting your decision to try the antiangiogenic trial!





They also sell more exotic meats in the form of canned EVO formulas, may times including up to 95% pure canned meat.

[CorkyMax]

QUOTE/TODD]--
Organ meat is great too. Here is a site I will give you. It is mostly for those feeding a prey model raw diet but they also carry some ground products that can be cooked in your situation. Just make sure it isn't whole ground meats because these include ground bone and should not be cooked. Look for organ meat or boneless meat. You could probably work something out with them. They have ground organ meat including pork heart, kidney, and liver.

Just want to give a word of caution here on organ meats (esp. liver) You should not give too much of this at a time--any organ meat. It is very rich and may make your dog sick esp. if not use to it--diarrhea, etc.--And even the dogs that are use to it, should only have about 1/4 of the meat be organ meat of the total meat fed at the time. I am not so sure beef heart would be as bad as it is a muscle meat but considered both I guess--muscle/organ. Wish I could get beef heart --my grocery store use to have it once in a while. My dogs loved it and It would of been a good thing for a supply of taurine too--and a lean meat too. Liver has a lot of toxins built-up so organic is best. Liver is also very high in vitamin A which is good for a dog if done in moderation but could be toxic if overdone!

Todd, I am sure you can add more about not giving too much organ meat at a time---the ratios I gave are right--Right?? With my dogs considered medium and a lab is considered large---even with the ratio I gave--my dogs would get less than a lab over all.--Know what I mean!? Wouldn't want an already sick dog getting sicker!

And hey Todd, I am not going to order meat off the net, etc---Too costly and I will not use a credit card on the net anyhow! Lol, gotcha!

(Glad you were able to get back in the forum, Tucker!)

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

QUOTE/TODD]--
Organ meat is great too. Here is a site I will give you. It is mostly for those feeding a prey model raw diet but they also carry some ground products that can be cooked in your situation. Just make sure it isn't whole ground meats because these include ground bone and should not be cooked. Look for organ meat or boneless meat. You could probably work something out with them. They have ground organ meat including pork heart, kidney, and liver.

Just want to give a word of caution here on organ meats (esp. liver) You should not give too much of this at a time--any organ meat. It is very rich and may make your dog sick esp. if not use to it--diarrhea, etc.--And even the dogs that are use to it, should only have about 1/4 of the meat be organ meat of the total meat fed at the time. I am not so sure beef heart would be as bad as it is a muscle meat but considered both I guess--muscle/organ. Wish I could get beef heart --my grocery store use to have it once in a while. My dogs loved it and It would of been a good thing for a supply of taurine too--and a lean meat too. Liver has a lot of toxins built-up so organic is best. Liver is also very high in vitamin A which is good for a dog if done in moderation but could be toxic if overdone!

Todd, I am sure you can add more about not giving too much organ meat at a time---the ratios I gave are right--Right?? With my dogs considered medium and a lab is considered large---even with the ratio I gave--my dogs would get less than a lab over all.--Know what I mean!? Wouldn't want an already sick dog getting sicker!

And hey Todd, I am not going to order meat off the net, etc---Too costly and I will not use a credit card on the net anyhow! Lol, gotcha!

(Glad you were able to get back in the forum, Tucker!)

You're right. Too much organ meat at once could make your dog sick. My Lucky is about 65 pounds. What I do is feed her about 1 pound of organ meat per week and just evenly distribute that amount over a one week or 7 day period. She didn't have any problems with that. As far as organ meat goes you should feed about 1 meal worth per week and can distribute that amount across the week. Organ meat should be about 10% of your dog's diet in my opinion. For example, I feed Lucky 2 pounds of food per day or 14 pounds per week. 10% of 14 pounds is a little over 1 pound per week which is what I feed. Just distribute the correct amount for your individual dog over the course of the entire week to reduce digestion problems. A least half of this organ meat should be liver but you can also use things such as kidney or heart (which is actually considered a muscle and not an organ to some people). Lucky likes the packaged thin sliced pieces of beef or chicken liver. Whole liver, kidney, or heart generally doesn't go over too well and it's messy too.

I feed Lucky raw organ meat so I haven't experienced this but imagine the smell of beef heart in your oven... Then imagine what someone would think if they looked in it...

[CorkyMax]

Todd/quote: I feed Lucky raw organ meat so I haven't experienced this but imagine the smell of beef heart in your oven... Then imagine what someone would think if they looked in it...
__________________
I fed it mostly raw but I use to home-cook before I started the raw diet and I would boil it all at once on top of the stove, with a lid on it--although I can't remember it being that bad to smell---nothing like liver for sure! And it wasn't bad to handle to cut up either--actually easier than most other raw meat--Pretty tender if I remember right. Then I'd put small portions in sandwich bags and freeze to add with the regular meal of muscle meat. Now, that beef liver is a bloody mess esp. when you put it in the processor to grind to make those liver treats---One of the reasons I usually used chicken livers over the beef for that plus I figured it had less toxins in it.

Think you said you divided the week's worth of organ meats and fed in small portions over the week. Only way I would do it, although think I have read that another option is to give it in one meal (for the one week). I would think it would be easier for the dog to get sick that way, Lol, prob. the air would not be as breatheable either! I think I did feed all beef heart at times though as it is not as rich as the liver and like I and you said--It is also considered a muscle meat too. But if I ever get a hold of any more--would give it along with hamburger--and the heart is pretty lean so the hamb. added would be a good combo to balance out the fat.:mrgreen:

[Tucker]

We are feeding EVO Grain Free Turkey & Chicken formula dry food:
42% protein, 22% fat (they do not break down type of fats) and the 95% protein canned food.

Their grain free foods are all about this same ratio of protein to fat. We feed ½ can a day of their canned 95% meat (either beef or chicken & turkey so far). Other than driving about 40 minutes each way I have to just order online. I will definitely order some of the venison 95% meat canned food (no hunters in the vicinity). They also have a duck formula – any thoughts?? The vet said the canned actually has more protein than the dry (although from the label this is hard to determine) so thinking of increasing this in his morning meal. I have been putting the additional fresh protein in the evening meal so far and sometimes give him a hard boiled egg during the day.

The other dry foods are Herring & Salmon (1.4% omega 6 FA – not sure if this is a problem since we should limit this and raise omega 3’s). The Red Meat dry food lists 1.24% linoleic acid (omega 6) but then has a separate listing of just “omega” at 30.43% - have no idea what that means. :???:

The dry foods are pretty comparable for percentage of protein but, as suggested, it would be good to feed the fish or red meat version for variety of the protein source. It will be easier to supplement just cooked chicken or turkey then myself. I will look this weekend for organic liver. Anyone have any luck finding organic liver etc. at Trader Joe’s? There is one about 25 minutes away I could try.

Received the order of K9 Immunity and Transfer Factor yesterday – emailed them about feeding with Berte’s Immune Blend (sent ingredient list) and they said it will be fine to use both. Unfortunately we will probably have to discontinue the K9 if/when we get him in a trial.
Thanks again for all the great info. and support!

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Tucker

We are feeding EVO Grain Free Turkey & Chicken formula dry food:
42% protein, 22% fat (they do not break down type of fats) and the 95% protein canned food.

Their grain free foods are all about this same ratio of protein to fat. We feed ½ can a day of their canned 95% meat (either beef or chicken & turkey so far). Other than driving about 40 minutes each way I have to just order online. I will definitely order some of the venison 95% meat canned food (no hunters in the vicinity). They also have a duck formula – any thoughts?? The vet said the canned actually has more protein than the dry (although from the label this is hard to determine) so thinking of increasing this in his morning meal. I have been putting the additional fresh protein in the evening meal so far and sometimes give him a hard boiled egg during the day.

The other dry foods are Herring & Salmon (1.4% omega 6 FA – not sure if this is a problem since we should limit this and raise omega 3’s). The Red Meat dry food lists 1.24% linoleic acid (omega 6) but then has a separate listing of just “omega” at 30.43% - have no idea what that means. :???:

The dry foods are pretty comparable for percentage of protein but, as suggested, it would be good to feed the fish or red meat version for variety of the protein source. It will be easier to supplement just cooked chicken or turkey then myself. I will look this weekend for organic liver. Anyone have any luck finding organic liver etc. at Trader Joe’s? There is one about 25 minutes away I could try.

Received the order of K9 Immunity and Transfer Factor yesterday – emailed them about feeding with Berte’s Immune Blend (sent ingredient list) and they said it will be fine to use both. Unfortunately we will probably have to discontinue the K9 if/when we get him in a trial.
Thanks again for all the great info. and support!

The red meat formula would be fine and would be great for some variety.

The canned food probably does have more protein in retrospect because it is 95% meat whereas dry kibble is not. It's hard to tell from the label because canned food has a much higher percentage of moisture than dry food. This is a good thing because it is the most natural and with high levels of protein high moisture levels are beneficial to balance that out making it more like a dog would eat in the wild in its natural state. Ground meat is also mostly moisture. This is the most natural state. Kibble is fine but many, including myself feel that canned food is more natural.

Duck would a great way to liven up the meals and add some variety.

Good luck!

[CorkyMax]

QUOTE/TUCKER: I have been putting the additional fresh protein in the evening meal so far and sometimes give him a hard boiled egg during the day.


I am thinking a raw egg would have much more nutrient and prob. easier to digest than a hard boiled one. I know some people worry about feeding raw egg---I don't, but being as your dog has cancer, I don't know if that would make a difference with the immune system working or not On the other hand a hard boiled egg is hard to digest, lol, I remember years ago that some of us use to eat hard boiled eggs when dieting as it actually used all the calories in it in order to digest it!---So it prob. isn't that good to have your dog putting all that 'taxing' energy into digesting it either.

Todd! What can you offer on this question? I did find the big difference in the nutrition of the 2 ways and know the raw is better that way--BUT--What is your take on which way to go for this dog with cancer--raw or hard boiled?:???:

[Tucker]

[QUOTE=Corky/Max;84238]QUOTE/TUCKER:
On the other hand a hard boiled egg is hard to digest, lol, I remember years ago that some of us use to eat hard boiled eggs when dieting as it actually used all the calories in it in order to digest it!---So it prob. isn't that good to have your dog putting all that 'taxing' energy into digesting it either.[/COLOR]


Think I've read that a soft scrambled egg is good - I know they don't recommend raw for a dog with cancer - not sure if that applies to eggs as well as meat...