[Tucker]

Our beautiful almost 11 year old yellow labbie was just diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma. He has had xrays and ultrasound which show a large tumor in his spleen which spread to the liver. Symptoms were out of the blue (stopped eating and lethargic for 1 day). The oncologist says surgery and chemo could add a few montlhs but we really don't think putting him thru all that stress and pain would give him a good quality of life for the time he has. He is not in pain now, only seems to pant a little more than normal due to pressure. He is on meds for anemia and the oncologist added a Chinese herb called yunnan paiyao to stop bleeding (which is what she said would cause his death very peacefully & likely in about a month). We are feeding him a high protein, high fat diet along with fish oil. Sorry for this long post - just wonder abut anyone elses experiences or recommendations :-(.

[cigwyllt]

What awful news for you. I have no experience or knowledge of the condition but I think you are being very wise and selfless to allow him to carry on peacefully without any invasive treatment. It is clear that he is very loved.

[Tucker]

Thank you -
Also ordered Berte's Immune Blend that is a supplement added to food for dogs with various diseases - anyone familiar with this?

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by Tucker

Our beautiful almost 11 year old yellow labbie was just diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma. He has had xrays and ultrasound which show a large tumor in his spleen which spread to the liver. Symptoms were out of the blue (stopped eating and lethargic for 1 day). The oncologist says surgery and chemo could add a few montlhs but we really don't think putting him thru all that stress and pain would give him a good quality of life for the time he has. He is not in pain now, only seems to pant a little more than normal due to pressure. He is on meds for anemia and the oncologist added a Chinese herb called yunnan paiyao to stop bleeding (which is what she said would cause his death very peacefully & likely in about a month). We are feeding him a high protein, high fat diet along with fish oil. Sorry for this long post - just wonder abut anyone elses experiences or recommendations :-(.

Sorry to hear of this diagnosis. I know how you feel--my 2 dogs are prob. not going to be around too long either--anywhere from keeling over tomorrow to 4-6 months and if They are very lucky-maybe a couple years.--(Just told you of their problem in your other post)
It sounds like you have done a lot of research (I did that too) and you prob. came across this: (but just in case) •Milk Thistle: This helps prevent dog cancer liver damage. It can help treat hepatitis and prevent injury from other drugs. It can protect the liver from chemotherapy and anti-convulsants (phenobarbital). Suggested dosage is 250 mg for a dog under 25 lbs, and 500 mg for a dog over 25 lbs once daily. Milk thistle should be used in most cases of liver cancer, but always ask your veterinarian.
•Shark Cartilage: This has anti-angiogenic properties which reduce blood vessels in tumors. You can use 1000-2000 mg of shark cartilage if recommended by your vet or oncologist

This is the link that has the above and more info: Dog Cancer Diet

It sounds like it would be best to do it the way you are planning unless of course your dog started having too much pain---Your vet seems to think it is best also and must not think the dog will be in pain.

Just love him up as much as you can--Mine are getting a lot more attention I know, not that they weren't getting enough before--But you know what I mean. I am also taking plenty of pictures. Be nice to have a cam recorder. Believe that when your dog goes --you will see him again some day. Take care.

[Tucker]

Thanks for the link and supplement ideas - so glad you mentioned milk thistle since I did read about it and had meant to include it - right now my mind is kind of reeling with everything including percentages of protein/ fat/carbs to feed plus all the other stuff - vet also gave probiotics but we always supplemented with plain yogurt so have also switched to full fat of that. The oncologist said it is an "easy" death - once a blood vessel ruptures he will start bleeding and simply and quicky get tired until the end. He bled some the other day but that seems to have stopped. We will not let him be in pain - she said we could give meds for that if needed but didn't seem to think it would be an issue. I know what you mean about the extra attention - just trying to make him have a happy time and he is such a sweet, happy dog that has been easy so far. Of course your always have in the back of your mind how much you will miss him.
Were both of your dogs diagnosed at the same time? I cannot imagine going thru this with 2 babies at once. Are there things to help this problem? Thanks again for the info. and thoughts!

[CorkyMax]

No, my dogs weren't diagnosed at same time --but close. Corky started coughing and gagging really bad so I took him to the vet. X-ray of heart showed very enlarged. I had my suspicions about Max (Paxer) because in researching I found out that cockers have low taurine in their systems and may lead to dilated cardiopathy--and since taurine is found in mainly beef and they are both on same raw food diet--I wasn't feeding as much beef as I should of been. Chicken doesn't have that much taurine. I am going to give you a couple links to posts I did in here--as there is better explanations there.


Update on my Corky

And Now It's About Max! (Corky's 'bro')

Dilated Cardiomyopathy (Heart Disease)


And here is a site you might want to read: Pet’s Terminal Illness | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter

[Todd]

I am very sorry to hear this sad news. Youyr vet is right. This condition, especially when the tumor is internal, is a fatal condition. Chemo is said to drag on life expectancy for around an additional 5-7 months, however why put your dog through what could be a tramatic/uncomfortable experience just to prolong death for a couple of months?

Here are some other experimental treatments you may want to look into dealing with this condition.

Experimental laser procedure

Autologous patient specific tumor antigen response: apSTAR Veterinary Cancer Laser: The use of a laser combined with a polymer has been shown to enhance tumor immunity and improve the rate of primary and metastatic tumor regression in laboratory models of tumors. Veterinary Cancer Therapeutics, LLC, a division of IMULAN BioTherapeutics, LLC, has recently started examining the use of this laser device, termed apSTAR, for canine sarcomas and other tumor types.

About apSTAR: apSTAR (Autologous Patient Specific Tumor Antigen Response), is an immune activating laser procedure. In previous in vivo cancer models, apSTAR has been shown to induce long term tumor immunity and increase the rate of primary and metastatic tumor regression. apSTAR optimizes the immune response against tumor specific antigens, thereby creating a personalized approach to fighting cancer. The procedure was developed, in part, at the Oklahoma State University - Center for Veterinary Health Sciences and is now entering field evaluation on a limted basis.

Although this is merely experimental, this technique's theory is that it may comfortably increase life expectancy in cancer patients and possibly even cure cancer. Here is a link to a canine medical center that focuses on this specific treatment;

Canine Osteosarcoma | Veterinary Cancer Therapeutics

When it's a matter of life and death you have nothing to loose so I would def. look into this more.

Good luck and I feel for you and your dog throughout this hard time.

[Tucker]

Todd - thank you so much for the link and info. regarding the apStar treatment; I could not believe it when I saw that one of the three national sites for the trial is only 1 1/2 hrs. away from us (Ruckersville VA). My husband spoke with the vet there who does the treatments and unfortunately the trial is only for surface tumors. He considered removing the spleen and injecting the immunotherapy into that area during surgery until he found out that Tucker's liver enzymes are elevated, confirming the ultrasound results of spread to the liver. So far Tucker is active, happy and eating normally - hope this can continue for longer than predicted...

Corky/Max - thanks also for the link to B-Naturals.com's newsletter; that is where I ordered the Berte's Immune Blend (wish it would get here!) but had not seen that great informational section on their site. I feel so bad for you going thru this with 2 dogs; it must be extremely hard. We have talked about getting a rescue dog in the future and have considered a cocker or cocker mix so the sharing of your experience with their nutrition could be of great help for me and I am sure lots of others.

[CorkyMax]

Quote:
Corky/Max - thanks also for the link to B-Naturals.com's newsletter; that is where I ordered the Berte's Immune Blend (wish it would get here!) but had not seen that great informational section on their site. I feel so bad for you going thru this with 2 dogs; it must be extremely hard. We have talked about getting a rescue dog in the future and have considered a cocker or cocker mix so the sharing of your experience with their nutrition could be of great help for me and I am sure lots of others. Unquote

I am glad that I can help by telling what to look out for with cockers (and some other breeds as well) to do with the low Taurine in their system. I only wish I had known about it a lot sooner. Hopefully I can help others before it is too late. Corky had a bad night last night but seems better this morning.

Good luck with the Berte's Immune Blend. Hope your puppy/dog does well for a long time yet.

[Todd]

Methods like chemo and radiation, like you mentioned, would only prolong the dog's survival rate for a limited amount of time and cause more pain and stress than anything else. I've been doing some research for you, and here's something I found which is an experimental procedure utilizing the injection of stem cells to naturally grown blod vessels. here's some info regarding it;

Angiogenesis is a physiological process involving the growth of new blood vessels from pre-existing vessels. Though there has been some debate over terminology, vasculogenesis is the term used for spontaneous blood-vessel formation, and intussusception is the term for new blood vessel formation by splitting off existing ones.

Angiogenesis is a normal and vital process in growth and development, as well as in wound healing. However, it is also a fundamental step in the transition of tumors from a dormant state to a malignant one.

Tumor angiogenesis
Cancer cells are cells that have lost their ability to divide in a controlled fashion. A tumor consists of a population of rapidly dividing and growing cancer cells. Mutations rapidly accrue within the population. These mutations (variation) allow the cancer cells (or sub-populations of cancer cells within a tumor) to develop drug resistance and escape therapy. Tumors cannot grow beyond a certain size, generally 1–2 mm³ [24], due to a lack of oxygen and other essential nutrients.

Tumors induce blood vessel growth (angiogenesis) by secreting various growth factors (e.g. Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor or VEGF). Growth factors such as bFGF and VEGF can induce capillary growth into the tumor, which some researchers suspect supply required nutrients, allowing for tumor expansion. On 18 July 2007 it was discovered that cancerous cells stop producing the anti-VEGF enzyme PKG. In normal cells (but not in cancerous ones), PKG apparently limits beta-catenin which solicits angiogenesis.[25] Other clinicians believe that angiogenesis really serves as a waste pathway, taking away the biological end products put out by rapidly dividing cancer cells. In either case, angiogenesis is a necessary and required step for transition from a small harmless cluster of cells, often said to be about the size of the metal ball at the end of a ball-point pen, to a large tumor. Angiogenesis is also required for the spread of a tumor, or metastasis. Single cancer cells can break away from an established solid tumor, enter the blood vessel, and be carried to a distant site, where they can implant and begin the growth of a secondary tumor. Evidence now suggests that the blood vessel in a given solid tumor may in fact be mosaic vessels, composed of endothelial cells and tumor cells. This mosaicity allows for substantial shedding of tumor cells into the vasculature. The subsequent growth of such metastases will also require a supply of nutrients and oxygen or a waste disposal pathway.

Endothelial cells have long been considered genetically more stable than cancer cells. This genomic stability confers an advantage to targeting endothelial cells using antiangiogenic therapy, compared to chemotherapy directed at cancer cells, which rapidly mutate and acquire 'drug resistance' to treatment. For this reason, endothelial cells are thought to be an ideal target for therapies directed against them. Recent studies by Klagsbrun, et al. have shown, however, that endothelial cells growing within tumors do carry genetic abnormalities. Thus, tumor vessels have the theoretical potential for developing acquired resistance to drugs. This is a new area of angiogenesis research being actively pursued.

[edit] Formation of tumor blood vessels
Tumour blood vessels have perivascular detachment, vessel dilation, and irregular shape. It is believed that tumor blood vessels are not smooth like normal tissues and are not ordered sufficiently to give oxygen to all of the tissues.[1] Endothelial precursor cells are organized from bone marrow, which are then integrated into the growing blood vessels.[2] Then the endothelial cells differentiate and migrate into perivascular space, to form tumour cells. Vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) plays a crucial role in the formation of blood vessels that lead to tumor growth, which allows the vessel to expand. It is called sprouting angiogenesis.[26][27][28]

Angiogenesis research is a cutting edge field in cancer research, and recent evidence also suggests that traditional therapies, such as radiation therapy, may actually work in part by targeting the genomically stable endothelial cell compartment, rather than the genomically unstable tumor cell compartment. New blood vessel formation is a relatively fragile process, subject to disruptive interference at several levels. In short, the therapy is the selection agent which is being used to kill a cell compartment. Tumor cells evolve resistance rapidly due to rapid generation time (days) and genomic instability (variation), whereas endothelial cells are a good target because of a long generation time (months) and genomic stability (low variation).

This is an example of selection in action at the cellular level, using a selection pressure to target and differentiate between varying populations of cells. The end result is the extinction of one species or population of cells (endothelial cells), followed by the collapse of the ecosystem (the tumor) due either to nutrient deprivation or self-pollution from the destruction of necessary waste pathways.

Angiogenesis-based tumour therapy relies on natural and synthetic angiogenesis inhibitors like angiostatin, endostatin and tumstatin. These are proteins that mainly originate as specific fragments pre-existing structural proteins like collagen or plasminogen.

Recently, the 1st FDA-approved therapy targeted at angiogenesis in cancer came on the market in the US. This is a monoclonal antibody directed against an isoform of VEGF. The commercial name of this antibody is Avastin, and the therapy has been approved for use in colorectal cancer in combination with established chemotherapy.

*This method also is an experimental method of treating viceral hemangiosarcoma.

[Tucker]

Todd - first I want to tell you how much we appreciate all the information you are providing - it is helping to point us in the right direction and explore possible treatments completely unfamiliar to us - I was able to locate an open trial for antiangiogenic therapy. Again, I am totally amazed that there is a location not too far away in Leesburg, VA (The Oncology Service/The LifeCentre) - they also have a branch in D.C. and there are 2 other participating sites in NJ and MA. The vet in charge of the trial there called back today and spent quite a bit of time talking to my husband (he gets to phone sit while I am at work!). I had tried not to get my hopes up too much this time but if Tucker can stay in decent condition for about a month he would be considered as a candidate. The initial phase has started already and is for dogs with any measurable cancer other than hemangiosarcoma. The 2nd phase is for hemangio. exclusively and consists of daily oral treatment. No placebos are used. The drug, diagnostic tests (no biopsy for hemangio.dogs) and exams are fully funded. I was thinking maybe he could receive chemo to keep him in good enough shape for the trial but that would have to end 21 days prior to beginning the drug so that is out since he could possible start in 30 days. So far he still is eating really well and is alert and runs some outside but does lay around more than he used to. Berte's immune blend should finally arrive tomorrow so hope that helps also.
Thank you again! By the way, are you a Buckeye??

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Tucker

Todd - first I want to tell you how much we appreciate all the information you are providing - it is helping to point us in the right direction and explore possible treatments completely unfamiliar to us - I was able to locate an open trial for antiangiogenic therapy. Again, I am totally amazed that there is a location not too far away in Leesburg, VA (The Oncology Service/The LifeCentre) - they also have a branch in D.C. and there are 2 other participating sites in NJ and MA. The vet in charge of the trial there called back today and spent quite a bit of time talking to my husband (he gets to phone sit while I am at work!). I had tried not to get my hopes up too much this time but if Tucker can stay in decent condition for about a month he would be considered as a candidate. The initial phase has started already and is for dogs with any measurable cancer other than hemangiosarcoma. The 2nd phase is for hemangio. exclusively and consists of daily oral treatment. No placebos are used. The drug, diagnostic tests (no biopsy for hemangio.dogs) and exams are fully funded. I was thinking maybe he could receive chemo to keep him in good enough shape for the trial but that would have to end 21 days prior to beginning the drug so that is out since he could possible start in 30 days. So far he still is eating really well and is alert and runs some outside but does lay around more than he used to. Berte's immune blend should finally arrive tomorrow so hope that helps also.
Thank you again! By the way, are you a Buckeye??

I am so glad this may help you! Be sure to keep us updated!

I guess you could say I'm a Buckeye. I'm from the Buckeye State.

[Tucker]

Well the first update is that Tucker will soon be a butterball unless we cut back on the fat/caloreis - he is supposed to be fed high protein, fairly high fat and low carbs. He has 2 meals a day and I have added a protein snack and also get in 2 more fish oil capsules since they are supposed to be given with food; I also am concerned that when the cancer spreads more he will lose fat and then muscle mass. Snacks have been small amounts of regular cheese, cottage cheese or a hard boiled egg - all with some liver treats mixed in (he is anemic) He also gets a few small treats during the day. We feed EVO dry with plain yogurt and some canned at 1 of the meals. He was actually ideal weight 2 weeks ago per the vet (almost 80 lbs) and we had been keeping him fairly slender to help avoid joint problems. Think we should keep him a little heavier that we have been due to the cancer?
Guess the best person to ask might be the oncologist we saw although I don't have the greastest confidence in all vets for nutritional advise. Our local vet did write a Christmas newletter, however, advocating grain free diets for dogs - Thanks for any input....

[Tucker]

Okay - I think I have basically answered my own question (note to self: do not try and post at 1AM) - Tucker has definitely not been getting the same amount of exercise since we are afraid it will cause the bleeding to recur; he does run down the fence line if he thinks deer are around and chases squirrels but figure we have to allow him to be a dog - anyway, with decreasing exercise and addition of lots of fish oil, cheese, etc. it can add up - think will switch to lower fat versions of cheese.

[Todd]

I wouldn't neccessarily have him get much heavier. A little extra weight is nothing to worry about, however if he becomes overweight this could put extra stress on every part of his body, not only joints but also internal organs, which is not a good thing with any condition.

I don't think a little exercise would hurt. Who really knows for sure how much time he may have left. I'm not saying go out and run him or anything because I understand the risk of bleeding but I honestly don't think a few short, slow walks throughout the day would hurt.

As far as your cancer diet is going, it sounds pretty good. EVO is a good kibble to feed to cancer patients because it is not only grain-free but is filled with high quality protein sources. You're doing a great think by adding the fish oil as well. "Fish oil at 1000 mg per 20lbs of dog each day is a recommended supplement for dogs with cancer". You may also want to add some fresh fish or canned sardines for example to the EVO diet for some of that extra animal protein. As you say you're adding, eggs and cottage cheese are also good protein sources to add, however if you want a more natural animal protein source you may try adding some ground turkey, chicken, beef, or other ground meats. Don't go for the reduced fat/low fat meats for as you know higher fat diets are ideal for canine patients with cancer. I'm a raw feeding advocate, however I'd probably feed the meat cooked because raw diets are great but can be potentially dangerous for dogs with compromised immune systems, which cancer patients obviously have.

If you do decide to go on with the chemo for the time being, here are a list of some other supplements that may assist with that;

Other Dietary Supplements to Enhance Chemo-Therapy:
Vitamin E – 400 iu per day
Selenium – 100 mcg per day
Beta-carotene - or raw carrots, grated, if the dog likes them
Green tea extract (decaffeinated) 50 -100 mg/day
Grape seed extract
Quercetin

Many veterinarians feel that antioxidants should be stopped three days before, and resumed one week after the completion of the radiation or chemo treatment. This comes from earlier assumptions and is not necessarily the latest info. It is crucial you work with your oncologist to achieve maximum effectiveness in your dog's treatment!

Immunomodulators that should be used in all canine cancer patients.

K-9 Immunity™ should be used at a dose of 1 capsule per 10 lbs per day to enhance immune function and cancer recognition.
K9 Transfer Factor ™ or Transfer Factor Plus Advanced Formula ™, or other transfer factor product should be used to enhance bio-availability of the K-9 Immunity™. Usual dose is 100-200 mg / 10 lbs / day
Optional Immune stimulants that may be beneficial:

Echinacea: This plant is an immune-system booster. You can find Echinacea in health food stores in several forms: tablets, tinctures, capsules, and extracts of dried or fresh roots. American doctors aren’t familiar with Echinacea but in other countries there as been a lot of research done. Follow adult dosing directions.
Astragalus: This comes from the root of the plant, Astragalus membranaceus. It has been used in China to fight respiratory infections including colds and flu. Studies in the West have confirmed its immune-boosting and antiviral properties. Follow adult dosing directions.

Other purported Anti-Cancer herbs:


Cat's Claw: Uncaria tomentosa, comes from Peru and was used to treat arthritis and cancer. Studies have confirmed that it has antioxidants and immune-enhancing properties. For small dogs, use ¼ the adult dosage and for medium dogs use ½.
Pau D'Arco: This herb is extracted from the bark of the Tahebuia genus tree in South America. It contains lapachol and other phytochemicals which produce anti-cancer and anti-inflammatory results. For small dogs, use ¼ the adult dosage and for medium dogs use ½.


Other Dietary Supplements:


Milk Thistle: This helps prevent dog cancer liver damage. It can help treat hepatitis and prevent injury from other drugs. It can protect the liver from chemotherapy and anti-convulsants (phenobarbital). Suggested dosage is 250 mg for a dog under 25 lbs, and 500 mg for a dog over 25 lbs once daily. Milk thistle should be used in most cases of liver cancer, but always ask your veterinarian.
Shark Cartilage: This has anti-angiogenic properties which reduce blood vessels in tumors. You can use 1000-2000 mg of shark cartilage if recommended by your vet or oncologist
Essiac tea, Wheatgrass extract, Soybean Concentrate or Chlorella. These are sometimes used, but are not proven treatments.
Spirulina and chlorella provide protein, vitamins and minerals. Miraculous claims made for these products have not been substantiated.

Here are some additional treatments I found that can assist with drugs/chemo during therapy and may even help if you decide to persue the therapy I described to you;

Acupuncture: Acupuncture can relieve pain and provide analgesia without the side effects of drugs. It can stabilize the function of the adrenal gland and increase endogenous corticosteroid secretion without the side effects of steroids. Electrical acupuncture can improve muscle strength and reflex activity. It can help relieve muscle spasms after operations. Acupuncture is usually a process of several treatments. If it doesn’t show results in 3-5 treatments then it probably won’t work. Your veterinarian could refer you to a veterinary acupuncturist.
Static Magnetic Therapy: Static Magnetic Therapy: North pole magnets create alkalinity by decreasing hydrogen ion concentration in tissue. They suppress cell mitosis, viral/bacterial growth, tumors and inflammation. Apply a north pole magnet over the tumor area for 15-20 minutes a day. Medical magnets should be 1000-3000 gauss.
Healing Touch: Healing touch: Some believe that “life force” and “energy” can be transferred to a patient through touch and this will cause healing benefits. No spiritual belief is necessary and there is no harm that can be done. Some studies have shown that touch can reduce stress and blood pressure of the patient. It is not easy to demonstrate the results of healing touch. Petting your sick dog is good therapy for both of you and certainly will not cause you any harm. He or She needs lot's of love and attention at this time, as do you.

Finally, here is a link to a site where you can personally sign up for free newsletters/reports on cancer, and you can specifically check Hemangiosarcoma.

Good luck and I hope you keep us updated and that everything goes well for you and your beloved dog.

[CorkyMax]

Quote/Todd] I wouldn't neccessarily have him get much heavier. A little extra weight is nothing to worry about, however if he becomes overweight this could put extra stress on every part of his body, not only joints but also internal organs, which is not a good thing with any condition. This is iffy to me--whether to keep him eating extra calories or not--What you say here about overweight is true enough but chemo can make him nauseous and lose his appetite which would not be good either. Darn! If a person could just see how bad the chemo is going to affect his appetite. My daughter went through this when she had chemo. I think if it was me deciding here--I'd opt for being a little overweight---Do it in protein and fat to keep up the nutrition factor. Ugh! She was suppose to drink protein drinks with raw egg in it---Course a dog would like that.

I don't think a little exercise would hurt. Who really knows for sure how much time he may have left. I'm not saying go out and run him or anything because I understand the risk of bleeding but I honestly don't think a few short, slow walks throughout the day would hurt.

As far as your cancer diet is going, it sounds pretty good. EVO is a good kibble to feed to cancer patients because it is not only grain-free but is filled with high quality protein sources. You're doing a great think by adding the fish oil as well. "Fish oil at 1000 mg per 20lbs of dog each day is a recommended supplement for dogs with cancer". You may also want to add some fresh fishGuess you didn't mean raw here! Warm water fish have a parasite/fluke that could kill the dog (esp. with a compromised immune system). or canned sardinesI wonder if a dog with cancer is suppose to have so much salt! Cheese and cottage cheese have a lot of salt too. Check all labels for salt/sodium content too--esp. canned fish/salmon/mackerel and those cheap brands of frozen chicken (usually 3# frozen pkgs)and 1 well-known brand of even fresh chicken Tyson--is full of sodium--salt/water solution is added! for example to the EVO diet for some of that extra animal protein. As you say you're adding, eggs and cottage cheese are also good protein sources to add, however if you want a more natural animal protein source you may try adding some ground turkey, chicken, beef, or other ground meats.Ground meats are easy to add but just so you know--They do not have as much protein as whole cuts of meat (beef chunks, chicken chunks, etc) oz. per oz. Beef roast-lean is 35-37 grams in 4 oz.--while lean hamburger is only 20 grams per 4 oz. Of course the ground meats will have more fat. Think I would go for the chunks versus the ground and add the fat you want thru peanut butter, etc. Don't go for the reduced fat/low fat meats for as you know higher fat diets are ideal for canine patients with cancer. I'm a raw feeding advocate, however I'd probably feed the meat cooked because raw diets are great but can be potentially dangerous for dogs with compromised immune systems, which cancer patients obviously have.I also feed raw but glad you added about the compromised immune system here as far as not feeding raw in this case. A sick or unhealthy dog should not suddenly be switched to a raw diet!

If you do decide to go on with the chemo for the time being, here are a list of some other supplements that may assist with that;

Other Dietary Supplements to Enhance Chemo-Therapy:
Vitamin E – 400 iu per day
Selenium – 100 mcg per day
Beta-carotene - or raw carrots, grated, if the dog likes them
Green tea extract (decaffeinated) 50 -100 mg/day
Grape seed extract
Quercetin

Many veterinarians feel that antioxidants should be stopped three days before, and resumed one week after the completion of the radiation or chemo treatment. This comes from earlier assumptions and is not necessarily the latest info. It is crucial you work with your oncologist to achieve maximum effectiveness in your dog's treatment!
I have had cancer myself and I had read that mega doses of Vitamin c (which I was taking!) can interfere with the radiation treatments. I did not know this until I only had about 5 days left of treatments! Which pi*sed me off and I asked why they didn't tell me about this---No real answer. Well from my experience---When you start the radiation--It is expected that you will get raw where the radiation is given so they give you a big tube of salve/whatever (THis was 16 yrs. ago) to use. I never got even pink let alone raw red and I believe it was because of the vitamin c! Nice that I did not get sore/raw but how effective was the treatment!? Other patients at the time had to stop treatments for a while or all together. One guy had treatments on his face and his face looked like raw hamburger. Another guy asked me how come I looked so good and was not sick, etc (At that time I couldn't tell him that it might be the vit. c as I didn't know about it then). His wife was one who became very sick from the treatments and had to stop. Just commenting on this antioxident-Vitamin C and maybe you can figure out why some vets don't want antioxidents taken at this time. Don't know of any new ideas as this was 16 yrs. ago but wouldn't it still interfere with radiation treatments!? I never read this as far as chemo goes--just radiation so I don't know about the chemo. Think I would do some research on Vitamin C (antioxidents too) in connection with these treatments. And maybe put something in your browser : dogs/cancer/salt/sodium too.

Just adding my 2 cents worth here and giving you some more food for thought. Hope things go well!!

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

Quote/Todd] I wouldn't neccessarily have him get much heavier. A little extra weight is nothing to worry about, however if he becomes overweight this could put extra stress on every part of his body, not only joints but also internal organs, which is not a good thing with any condition. This is iffy to me--whether to keep him eating extra calories or not--What you say here about overweight is true enough but chemo can make him nauseous and lose his appetite which would not be good either. Darn! If a person could just see how bad the chemo is going to affect his appetite. My daughter went through this when she had chemo. I think if it was me deciding here--I'd opt for being a little overweight---Do it in protein and fat to keep up the nutrition factor. Ugh! She was suppose to drink protein drinks with raw egg in it---Course a dog would like that.

I don't think a little exercise would hurt. Who really knows for sure how much time he may have left. I'm not saying go out and run him or anything because I understand the risk of bleeding but I honestly don't think a few short, slow walks throughout the day would hurt.

As far as your cancer diet is going, it sounds pretty good. EVO is a good kibble to feed to cancer patients because it is not only grain-free but is filled with high quality protein sources. You're doing a great think by adding the fish oil as well. "Fish oil at 1000 mg per 20lbs of dog each day is a recommended supplement for dogs with cancer". You may also want to add some fresh fishGuess you didn't mean raw here! Warm water fish have a parasite/fluke that could kill the dog (esp. with a compromised immune system). or canned sardinesI wonder if a dog with cancer is suppose to have so much salt! Cheese and cottage cheese have a lot of salt too. Check all labels for salt/sodium content too--esp. canned fish/salmon/mackerel and those cheap brands of frozen chicken (usually 3# frozen pkgs)and 1 well-known brand of even fresh chicken Tyson--is full of sodium--salt/water solution is added! for example to the EVO diet for some of that extra animal protein. As you say you're adding, eggs and cottage cheese are also good protein sources to add, however if you want a more natural animal protein source you may try adding some ground turkey, chicken, beef, or other ground meats.Ground meats are easy to add but just so you know--They do not have as much protein as whole cuts of meat (beef chunks, chicken chunks, etc) oz. per oz. Beef roast-lean is 35-37 grams in 4 oz.--while lean hamburger is only 20 grams per 4 oz. Of course the ground meats will have more fat. Think I would go for the chunks versus the ground and add the fat you want thru peanut butter, etc. Don't go for the reduced fat/low fat meats for as you know higher fat diets are ideal for canine patients with cancer. I'm a raw feeding advocate, however I'd probably feed the meat cooked because raw diets are great but can be potentially dangerous for dogs with compromised immune systems, which cancer patients obviously have.I also feed raw but glad you added about the compromised immune system here as far as not feeding raw in this case. A sick or unhealthy dog should not suddenly be switched to a raw diet!

If you do decide to go on with the chemo for the time being, here are a list of some other supplements that may assist with that;

Other Dietary Supplements to Enhance Chemo-Therapy:
Vitamin E – 400 iu per day
Selenium – 100 mcg per day
Beta-carotene - or raw carrots, grated, if the dog likes them
Green tea extract (decaffeinated) 50 -100 mg/day
Grape seed extract
Quercetin

Many veterinarians feel that antioxidants should be stopped three days before, and resumed one week after the completion of the radiation or chemo treatment. This comes from earlier assumptions and is not necessarily the latest info. It is crucial you work with your oncologist to achieve maximum effectiveness in your dog's treatment!
I have had cancer myself and I had read that mega doses of Vitamin c (which I was taking!) can interfere with the radiation treatments. I did not know this until I only had about 5 days left of treatments! Which pi*sed me off and I asked why they didn't tell me about this---No real answer. Well from my experience---When you start the radiation--It is expected that you will get raw where the radiation is given so they give you a big tube of salve/whatever (THis was 16 yrs. ago) to use. I never got even pink let alone raw red and I believe it was because of the vitamin c! Nice that I did not get sore/raw but how effective was the treatment!? Other patients at the time had to stop treatments for a while or all together. One guy had treatments on his face and his face looked like raw hamburger. Another guy asked me how come I looked so good and was not sick, etc (At that time I couldn't tell him that it might be the vit. c as I didn't know about it then). His wife was one who became very sick from the treatments and had to stop. Just commenting on this antioxident-Vitamin C and maybe you can figure out why some vets don't want antioxidents taken at this time. Don't know of any new ideas as this was 16 yrs. ago but wouldn't it still interfere with radiation treatments!? I never read this as far as chemo goes--just radiation so I don't know about the chemo. Think I would do some research on Vitamin C (antioxidents too) in connection with these treatments. And maybe put something in your browser : dogs/cancer/salt/sodium too.

Just adding my 2 cents worth here and giving you some more food for thought. Hope things go well!!

I guss "a little"overweight wouldn't do much damage, but don't let the dog's weght get out of hand obviously.

[Lara's mom]

Bailey's (my oldest) Doctor deals with dogs battling cancer. In one of the back issues of the newsletter she sends out, she wrote that most of the time chemo doesn't affect dogs nearly as badly as it does human beings. However, loss of appetite is certainly a possibility so, a little extra weight wouldn't go amiss.

I wish I'd kept those newsletters but when I moved I had to throw a lot of stuff away and unfortunately, they got tossed.

[CorkyMax]

Please do not give the skin/fat of a turkey. It is the worst dense fat there is and could actually end up causing pancreatitis! And thinking deeper about this giving fats at all ---overly doing would not be good--pancreatitis and other things! Maybe not too much saturated /animal fats---healthy fats prob. much better.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

Please do not give the skin/fat of a turkey. It is the worst dense fat there is and could actually end up causing pancreatitis! And thinking deeper about this giving fats at all ---overly doing would not be good--pancreatitis and other things! Maybe not too much saturated /animal fats---healthy fats prob. much better.

I understand what you're saying, but I have to respectfully disagree. The skin has the extra fat needed for a cancer patient and is natural. A wolf in the wild would eat the skin, wouldn't they? I am a raw feeder and you feed some raw too, so just think of it this way... The skin is a healthy fat for a dog of any kind, especially with cancer. Maybe not a human, but for a dog.

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

Please do not give the skin/fat of a turkey. It is the worst dense fat there is and could actually end up causing pancreatitis! And thinking deeper about this giving fats at all ---overly doing would not be good--pancreatitis and other things! Maybe not too much saturated /animal fats---healthy fats prob. much better.

I understand what you're saying, but I have to respectfully disagree. The skin has the extra fat needed for a cancer patient and is natural. A wolf in the wild would eat the skin, wouldn't they? I am a raw feeder and you feed some raw too, so just think of it this way... The skin is a healthy fat for a dog of any kind, especially with cancer. Maybe not a human, but for a dog.

ABout the weight, it probably wouldn't e a good thing for the dog to be overweight. Yes the extra calories and fat are good because of weight loss during chemo but why fill the dog to the point of being overweight? Just increase feeding so that the dog stays at ideal weight that it's on now. No neeed to feed to the point of becoming overweight. That would be hard enough to do anyway with chemo and such. I'd just maintain ideal weight. Higher end of ideal would not hurt, but I wouldn't have the dog get overweight. As I said, that could cause problems as well. Under weight is bad too though. Just increase fat/feeding with chemo to maintain higher end ideal/ideal. (just my opinion)