[zappy16]

Hello,

I have two German Shepherd Dogs who are 8 and 10 years old. I have had them both from puppies and they have always both been very healthy dogs. I live in the Uk in quite a rural area and both dogs have always lived outside with no problems - they sleep in a brick stable.

About 6 or 8 months ago I noticed that the older one had ear mites, so this was treated and the ear mites went, but because he had been itching so much his ear had never stood up since then, so I think he may have damaged the nerves.

Soon after this the weather was very getting very cold, so I bought a bale of straw for them to sleep on in the stable, and it seems that this is when the problems started. Both dogs started scratching terribly and over the next few months they were treated a number of times for mange and I think we have finally got rid of the mange now!

I have done a lot of research and talked to a number of different vets about this and it sounds like the straw I used must have been in an area where there were foxes and this is how they orginally picked up the mange mites. I have also found out that the dogs' immune systems must have been low for the mites to be able to take such a hold on them, and I think this is possibly due to the food they have been fed - like i said, they have always been very healthy and very active, and they have always been fed a complete dog food mix (biscuits) so even though this has kept them healthy and active, it just didnt have enough vitamins to help them get over this mite infestation.

I know that they main thing that needs to be done when trying to treat these mites is to find the main reason why their immune systems were low and sort this out first. So i have done this and they are now being fed a very good quality meat together with the biscuits and they are also being give chicken and other meat, they are having extra supplemtents such as vitamin capsules and cod liver oil capsules, and they are also getting a good sprinkling of Brewers Yeast on their food. They are being fed twice and day and are eating most of what is being given to them.

Like i said, the mange isnt the problem anymore as this is gone now and the dogs are not scratching anymore (not any more than healthy dogs do anyway) but the main problem now is that they are in very, very poor condition! They have lost nearly all of their hair, so are nearly completely bald and their skin is very, very, dry and extremely flaky.

The youngest one, the bitch, is not as badly affected as the male, but they are both very poor looking at the moment. The both have a lot of scabs on them and their skin is very easily broken, so if they do scratch then it immediately begins to bleed. I have been treating each new cut or scratch with anticeptic spray to prevent infection, so that is another problem i am trying to avoid.

They are my dogs and i love them dearly and i will do anything to get them better, but this has been going on now for 6 or 8 months and it is so heartbreaking to not see any visible improvement, and it is also very exhausting to try so many things which just dont seem to be helping.

When they had the mange they had stopped coming out, stopped walking round, had lost interest in everything and had stopped barking at strange noises and visitors, so it was very apparent that they were ill, but now they are very alert, they are barking and having a look round, will come when called etc. They are eating their food very well and they going to the bathroom too and their stools are very normal and healthy looking, so i dont think they are ill in themselves, but it is just their general overall condition and how they look - it is terrible and i have run out of things to do or try.

I really, really need some help, information or suggestions from anyone who thinks they could help me - i just think that their bodies have been overwhelmed with so many chemicals and treatmets over the past few months that their bodies just cant cope at the moment - so i dont really want them to have anymore injections or chemicals etc. I was wandering if anyone knew of any natural creams or ointments or anything really that can help their condition in any way??

Another problem is that they dont have very much fur at all - but to be honest this isnt the main worry for me at the moment as it isnt cold here at the moment, but i know it will be a problem once it starts to get cold. but i am guessing that if i can get their skin and overall condition back on track, then once the colder weather gets here, then their winter coats should start to grow in and they will be ok - do you agree with this??

I am so sorry for the very long post, but i would be forever greatful if anyone could help me and my dogs - i really just want them to get better!

Thanks,

Zappy

[cigwyllt]

My parents always put a spoonful of Flora margarine on their dog's food and swore that it helped his coat. They also used a coal tar dog shampoo from the local pet shop and would put "Flowers of Sulphur", an old folk remedy on his coat as well. It really did make a difference.

There aren't many of us Brits here on the forum and often remedies can't be found this side of the water but those above are all easily available here.

[CorkyMax]

Vinegar may do wonders! Check out this link on vinegar that I did a thread on a while back in this forum: What About Vinegar!!
This is a very long thread--Please read it all--It is good externally as well as internally. Be sure to note to mix the vinegar with half water if dog has bleeding sores. This stuff will not only sooth the itching but will help heal. Lol, like I said --this is a well worth read all the way through--a lot of other good uses too. I give my dog about a teaspoon or so mixed in with his food. I feed raw and some home-cooking so is easy for me to add to the food--not sure how it would work with dry commercial dog food--dog may not like it that way but you could try it with the raw meat and other scraps, etc. that you feed.

Here is another link you might find interesting:Attention-german shepherd/and gs mixes

Another link you might be interested in and it is long also but may help save a dog from eating things that could kill it or make it very sick. And this thread turned into more than just about foods--plants, and other dangerous things:
Foods that are hazardous to a dog

Just found this on net: http://www.ehow.com/how_2124093_remo...s-vinegar.html
You could have this as a problem too if the dogs are allergic to flea bites!

[cigwyllt]

I sometimes soak my dried dog food in stock or water so it would be easy to add vinegar then?

[CorkyMax]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

I sometimes soak my dried dog food in stock or water so it would be easy to add vinegar then?

The thing of course is getting the dog to accept it! You could try it and just start with a tiny amount and build up if the dog will eat it that way. Vinegar can be added to the drinking water as another way--It will make them thirsty and want to drink more water--It is sometimes added to the water if the dog is not drinking enough water. It would be more apt to work with the stock added to the dog food than the water--more flavor. You'll have to experiment I guess--might be some hints/ideas in the thread I mentioned in above post on vinegar--Can't remember! I mix it in with the raw meat and grated veggies I feed. I never liked the idea of putting it in the water but sounds like it is done quite a bit that way. Do you ever feed eggs? Have you ever added cinnamon? Prob not if only use dry dog food. I also put turmeric in with the meat meals--Got that idea from Lara's Mom. What I am getting at here--the more flavor to it -prob. the better.

[zappy16]

Thank you everyone for you fast replies, i really appreciate the information and links you have given me, i will definately have a good read through all of those links.

For me, Vinegar is a definate no no! I would definately not use vinegar with my dogs again! When they first showed signs of mange, i was advised to spray vinegar all over them as apparently the acid nature of vinegar gets rid of mites and deters them too, so stops them from returning.

I sprayed vinegar on them daily and for a few weeks they did seem to stop scratching and i thought that the mange had gone, and i continued this 'treatment' for about 2 months. After this they again went through a stage of losing their hair again, so i am not sure if the vinegar stopped working, or if indeed it was working at all, but after a while it was having no effect. Around this time i also noticed that the dogs were losing a lot of weight, so decided to a little research on Vinegar - i found out that people actually drink vinegar as a form or weight loss as vinegar breaks down fat very quickly, so this is why my dogs lost a lot of weight - they were licking themselves to get rid of the vinegar and then digested it, which was breaking down their fat andf making them lose weight - they were also extremely thirsty all of the time, another side effect of vingar.

Thank you for the info, but i wouldnt use vinegar on them again,i i personaly think it is just too acidic and i think some of the problems they have now is because of the vinegar and how harsh it is on their skin.


One thing i forgot to add on my orginal post is that the older german shepherd, the male, is extremely thin at the moment, i mean really, really, thin!! He is very bony, all of his bones are visible and he looks terrible because of this plus the condition of his skin and the fact that he has no fur! I weighed him about 7 days ago and he was 32kg, so I wormed him with the correct dose for his weight. I weighed him again yesterday and he still weighs the same.

I am guessing that he is so think due to worms, but if it was because of worms should he have put on weight in 7 days since being wormed? or would the effects not be visible yet?

What other reasons are there for him losing so much weight? (He hasnt had vinegar for at least 3 months, so i would have thought that was compltely out of his system by now.)

Any adivce would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Zappy

[cigwyllt]

Could it be something like Cushings disease? That leads to hair loss and thinning of the skin.

You wouldn't expect him to put on weight in just a week.

What is your vet's opinion/suggest way forward?

[angiesample]

Im so sorry that ur dogs are sick. I use Fish oil with my dog and EVERYONE always comments on how shiny and healthy her coat looks. I also brush her 3 times a week. Have you had blood work done? My sister in law has a dog that had similar issues. Hair loss and unable to keep weight on and it turns out she had low thyroid. Got her on medication and shes done great ever since. I hope u and ur vet figure this out soon.

[CorkyMax]

I doubt very much that the vinegar caused your dog to lose weight! I have been giving vinegar for years in my dog's meals and I wish it did cause weight loss as he is way overweight and needs to lose weight because of a heart condition. Actually the main reason I started using vinegar was because of it being acidic--My 2 dogs systems were too alkaline--causing crystals in the urine. A dog's system is suppose to be on the acidic side for many reasons and is the norm! More than likely the dog is losing weight because of this: (This is a question and answer thing)Pancreatic Insufficiency

Q: We have a 7 month German Shepherd puppy who the Vet feels has a genetic pancreatic disorder. She has had diarrhea for 3 weeks and has lost 15 lbs. Worms, parasites and inflammation of the bowels have all been ruled out. We will start her on a special enzyme supplement powder, which the Vet says will help her system digest the food it can't and get the nurtrition she needs. Can anyone tell us more about this disorder? And what the prognosis could be? The breeder has told us that this problem has been in the blood line. Some have said that there may be little we can do to save her. My wife, daughter and I love Liesl very much. Does anyone have suggestions? Thanks.

A: It is hard to be sure from your mail, but I am assuming that Liesl has pancreatic insufficiency - the inability to produce adequate digestive enzymes. It is possible to treat this by using Viokase or other products containing digestive enyzmes. . In most dogs, these will help enough that the dog can live a pretty normal life. If they are not successful alone, using cimetidine (Tagamet) to decrease stomach acids and allow the enzymes to work better is helpful. Some dogs can not be controlled through these measures and will die. In addition, some dogs are controlled well but suffer a twisting of the intestinal supporting structures for an unknown reason and die as a result of this. In one study, 10% of the dogs with pancreatic insufficiency studied had this problem. This is a serious problem but many dogs do live relatively normal lives with enzyme supplementation. I hope Liesl is one of these.

Mike Richards, DVM

Chronic Diarrhea in German Shepherd

Q: Dear Dr. Mike, My 2 1/2 year old German Shepherd, Simba, has had diarrhea for the last five weeks. He has lost twenty-two pounds (from ninety pounds). Initially, I didn't notice that he was eating outdated dog food from a pet store. It was manufactured in September 1995. In the last two weeks he has been eating new food, but the diarrhea has persisted. I took him to the vet, he tested his stool sample for parasites and pancreatitis. The vet said that pancreatitis was a possibility, but there were no parasites. I've done some research and don't believe that it is pancreatitis because his lower abdomen is not painful to palpations, has not had a loss of appetite and does not vomit. He was neutered and vaccinated just prior to the diarrhea. Could this have affected the situation being that his system was malnourished from the old dog food and then had to combat the antibodies from the vaccines? He also spent four days in a kennel a few days after the vaccinations at this point is when I noticed the diarrhea. Is it possible that there could be parasites that were not detected and can pancreatitis be determined by just taking a stool sample? These are the things that I have tried: fasting him, giving pepto-bismol and white rice. There was a slight improvement after the rice, but after eating regular food again, he resumed the diarrhea. Right now, I have fasted him and gave him charcoal tablets. I broke the fast slowly with vegetable broth, then cooked vegetables and now rice and oats. I don't have any more ideas, so any input would be greatly appreciated on my Simba's behalf. Thank-you in advance, Judy

A: Judy- In any German shepherd with chronic diarrhea my first instinct is to look for pancreatic insufficiency. In this case, insufficient digestive enzymes are being produced to allow proper digestion. This leads to persistent diarrhea. Pancreatic insufficiency is reasonably common in shepherds. There are pretty accurate tests for this condition now. Blood tests for trypsin like immunoreactivity (TLI) and serum folate levels are an improvement over older tests utilizing digestion of X-ray film. It is important not to overlook other possible causes, though. These tests are simple enough to include in the initial workup of a case, along with the more obvious things you mention, such as ruling out intestinal parasites, a general blood panel to make sure that there is not an obvious organ system problem (liver, kidney) and an attempt to make sure bacterial enteritis is not a problem.

Pancreatic insufficiency is NOT pancreatitis. It is an entirely different problem. Your vet may have been referring to this but phrased the concern badly or may be thinking that pancreatitis is possible. I would tend to agree that it isn't too likely as a continuing cause of diarrhea, though.

If no problem can be found with the labwork above, then the possibility of malabsorption disorders like lymphangectasia becomes more likely. Diagnosis of these conditions is best done by biopsy, usually utilizing an endoscope. We refer patients to an internal medicine specialist for this procedure.

The food can't be ruled out as a source of the initial problems but something else is probably keeping the problem going. Lots of times stressful situations bring on the clinical signs of problems such as pancreatic insufficiency and lymphangectasia or plasmacytic/lymphocytic enteritis -- and then these problems just keep on going.

Mike Richards, DVM


This link will tell you more on the problem that mostly German Shepherds have about this: Attention-german shepherd/and gs mixes

[zappy16]

Thanks again for the replies and links / articles - they are very interesting.

So far all tests have come back clear and at the moment all tests suggest they are healthy! They havent been tested for Cushings, so maybe this is something i should bring up at the vets - although i have had experience with cushings in other animals, and although my dogs have similar symptoms, it doesnt seem like cushings to me.

I am positive that all of this is related / due to the mange and the treatment they had for it, as this all started when I got the straw and carried on from when they got the mange, and they dont seem to have any medical problems at the moment - they just have what seems like extremely dry skin.

The last time we went to the vets they were put on a course of antibiotics as the vet said they had secondary infections of the skin in various places due to scratching and opening the skin and then infecting it with their paws - hence the antibiotic spray i now use on all of their cuts / open wounds.

Corky - the links and experiences you post about all seem to have the same problem of the dog having diarroah - both my dogs are very healthy and active and have healthy stools, so they dont seem to be ill at all in themselves, and the tests seem to back this up - it really is just their skin, it is extremely dry, extremely flaky and scabby.

I have actually bought baby oil today and have tried it on a small patch of skin on both of them and will see if that makes any difference - i just dont know what else to try.

Zappy

[Yogi]

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