[urbancynic]

About a month ago my family and I adopted a 4 month old min-pin named Scooby from the humane society. He's an absolute sweetheart (most times) and he is smarter than he likes us to think.

Here's some history on him before I get to my problem:

We are his 5th home. He was brought to the humane society when he was two months old by his original owner. When the humane society got him he had a broken jaw. The original owner claimed this occurred when his other dog bit him, however they didn't think that was the truth.

They neutered him, fixed his jaw and placed him in a foster home where he stayed for an amount of time I don't remember off the top of my head. He bounced around foster homes for two months until I found him and adopted him. The last foster home only had him for a week.

He is scared of strangers and if he's approached by someone he doesn't know in the typical way people approach puppies, he snaps at them. I do not like this behavior, but I am trying to work on correcting it by telling him in a stern voice "NO". He knows the behavior is unacceptable and stops immediately.

Within a few days he had an understanding of the commands "sit", "stay", "come" and he also learned that outside is where he is supposed to go potty.

Knowing that he is only a small puppy and has a small bladder, we take him out every 2 to 2.5 hours. Also, I do not allow him to fill up with water when its close to bed time.

Our living situation:

I live with my girlfriend and her 15 year old daughter in a 2 bedroom apartment. My girlfriend and I work 40 hours a week.

She wakes up around 4:00 am and lets him out and spends time with him. At around 5:30 her daughter wakes up and feeds him and takes him out. I wake up at 6:20 and make my way out to the living room at around 6:45 and take him out to do whatever he needs to do.

At 8:00am he gets put in his kennel until my girlfriend comes home at around 3:30pm. He gets fed and and a good 2-3 mile walk every day.

We have a 1 year old cat who hates everyone except Scooby. They play rough, but not too rough to where they need to be separated.

At about 9:30 He goes to bed after being given a chance to go potty.

We feed him in the morning, and in the evening before his walk.

Here's my issue:

He's got a habit of letting out an ear wrenching cry when isnt allowed to do what he wants (I never give in to this). When I do discipline him for pooping or peeing inside, he cries like the ever-loving sh*t is being beaten out of him.

Wednesday, for example, I took him out to do his business, which he did. I then remained outside to make sure he was done. When I was certain, or so I thought, that he was done, I brought him inside. First thing he did when I let him in was squat and poop on the carpet.

Of course I wasn't happy about this, especially after he had just been outside and already pooped and peed. So I told him in a stern and disappointed voice "NO" and told him he was bad. I also rubbed his nose in it. He began his horrible cry and then decided to bite me. He actually got me pretty good, and I bled a little bit.

The rest of that day he seemed to be in a bad mood, but he didnt bite anyone else. Later that night he lost a tooth. Perhaps the teething pain had him in this bad mood?

Today I had him sleeping on the couch next to me while I was watching tv. Next thing I knew, he got up and peed on the couch. So, again, I rubbed his nose in it and told him in the same disappointed and stern voice that what he'd done was wrong. And he let out a horrible cry like I was beating him to death.

I then put him in his kennel while I cleaned up the mess. While letting the cleaner soak in, I took him outside in case he had any other business. He didnt do anything at all after a good 15 minutes so I brought him back in.

He immediately started to poop inside the house just outside of his kennel as I was putting him back in in order to finish cleaning up. So, again I told him no and rubbed his nose in it and chained him up on the patio in order to finish cleaning without incurring any further mess from him.

While leashing him to the patio table, he snapped at me, but acted like he realized who I was before he bit down and just continued crying.

The harshest I've been with him is when he bites. In which case I hold his upper lips under his teeth and tell him "no biting" in the stern voice.

I don't ever beat him. I dont tease him. and I'm the only one he has bitten (2 successes in the past, and the one attempt today). I cant let this habit go on.

He knows he isn't supposed to go potty in the house, but he seems to do it when the mood strikes him.

Its hard to discipline him, because that shrieking whining cry is so hard on the ears, and it really gets on my nerves and irritates me.

I've trained several other breeds of dogs without any of these issues, but he has these issues that have me questioning myself on what to do.

Am I doing something wrong? Did his abuse cause him to act out like this?

Sorry for the essay, but I'm at a loss here. I don't want to get rid of him, but I wont allow myself to be bitten by him every time he decides he doesn't like me telling him what he did was bad.

[CorkyMax]

I think it may have to do with his previous history--so many different homes. He probably doesn't trust that he will be here permanently ---is insecure---and marking territory because of it! And from the many times that I have seen this not to do----You should not rub his nose in it!! It doesn't help anything and may make matters worse! Can't remember if you said how long you have had him but probably not long enough for him to get over his insecurities. No expert here--But think you have to gain his trust and love (and rubbing his nose in it is definitely not going to do that). You take care of his basic needs but do you spend time playing with him and showing affection----From what he has been through before you got him--sounds like he is going to need a lot of this affection and play. Talk to him a lot (gently and affectionately) and be patient--It will take time before he can trust you and know that this is his permanent home!

[urbancynic]

He's been with us for a month now.

The reason I rub his nose in it is because thats what I was taught by my parents with all the other dogs we've had. Although all the other dogs have been large breeds, i.e. German Shepherds, labs, doberman/border collie/who knows what mix, and so on and so forth. He's the first small breed I've had to deal with except for a chihuahua that an ex gf had.

If there's a better method to train him I'm all ears. I love the lil guy, except when he bites me, and want to make him happy without having to make myself suffer.

We do play with him constantly, except for the times he's sleeping next to us/on us, of course. He gets loads of love and affection. Good behavior is met with loads of praise and treats.

He plays to the crowd too. When its just me and him, he's my best buddy most of the time. When my girlfriend is home, she's his best friend and half the time he acts as if I'm his enemy, or as if I beat him or something.

When its him and I, I can carry him around in his harness and he wags his tail and is as happy as can be. If anyone else is home, then he whimpers like he's being abused.

When I'm home, regardless who else is there, he knows going potty inside is not acceptable. When he's alone with my girlfriend's daughter, he does it like its going out of style. (I view this as her problem, not his as I dont think she pays enough attention to the time, and what he's doing.) She also doesnt seem to like cleaning up after him which drives me nuts, but she's a teenager

[Lara's mom]

First of all, he is only 4 months old. He is still a baby. In his very short life he has been abused and bounced around to one home after another. The poor little thing has never known a minute of security. It is no wonder that he's "acting out." It is going to take a long time, a lot of love and patience and a huge commitment on the part of everyone in your family to make him understand that he has found his forever home and that he isn't going to be thrown away like a sack of garbage yet again.

Rubbing his nose in urine or excrement is only frightening him and he has experienced more fear than any dog should have to endure. Wherever he goes in the house, clean it up immediately with a type of cleanser that does not contain ammonia. To dogs, ammonia smells like urine and will only encourage him to use that spot again. White vinegar works well and is inexpensive.

Try confining him to a room that does not contain any carpeting when you can't watch him every minute and overnight. Put down some newspaper for him but sure it is well away from his food and his bed. At his age, he's too young to hold it all night. Also, you have to keep in mind the life he's led before he came to you. The poor little thing must be so confused and scared that he doesn't know what he is and isn't supposed to do.

When you take in a rescue dog, particularly one that has been through everything he has, there are bound to be issues and they will not be resolved overnight. There are no sure fire short term solutions. Work on making him feel safe and secure in your home and with your family. Be very gentle with him. He has had more rough treatment in his short life than most dogs ever experience.

Once he develops a sense of security that he is loved, treated with gentleness and kindness and is not going to be uprooted again, the "potty issue" will be a great deal easier to solve. Please, have a LOT of patience with him. There is a wonderful little dog locked away inside him but, after everything he's been through, it's going to take time for him to open up. Don't give up on him. Paper training may be your best bet for the time being. My guess is that every foster home he found himself in had different expectations of him. He wants to please you. Right now, he just doesn't know how to do it. Hang in there!

[Yogi]

Many traits ie: screaming etc is common to the Miniature Pinscher. Unfortunately you have one that has been abused and are really not ready for the time it takes to deal with it. Your schedule is not really set up to have a 4 month old pup that has this kind of baggage.
I have bred, raised and rescued this breed for many years. They are very free thinking and thus prone to be what most refer to as stubborn but in actuality they are being what they were bred to be, free thinking.
Those that have gone through foster especially after injuries harbor a resentment for sometime and any sign of discipline can bring back a flood of memories. Your actions probably remind the dog of how his jaw was broken. Someone physically disciplined him to the point that out of frustration caused the injury in the first place. You have 2 things against you in this, 1. These dogs require a great deal of patience and by this I mean literally. At this point what you may deem as patience unfortunately is really not close. 2. You seem to have carried over much of what you were taught with regards to dog training from another generation. Though this is not necessarily wrong, it is more applicable to a dog you obtained as a pup not one that came from an already violent situation.
Part of taking in these type of dogs is knowing that they have baggage and being prepared for it and all that it entails.
I applaud you the effort but you are going about it all wrong.
As noted, 4 months old is still a pup and unfortunately this breed is notoriously difficult to house train. But even harder when in fact it has had no real home due to all it has gone through in such a short period of time.
With all things, if you care enough it will take a great deal of patience and a great deal of time. I have some that took me 7 months to acclimate. Its part of the whole thing when it comes to taking dogs in that have had it rough early.
You may have been better suited to get a dog from a breeder. Not that I am not applauding you for your willingness but many are really not aware of the responsibility of these type situations. Not to mention, this breed is also a terrier, limited walks are not sufficient. They really need a fenced yard to run around in to wear off energy pent up.

[Lara's mom]

I just hope that they don't give up on the little guy. He has already been through so much. If would be so tragic if once again his whole world turned upside down. He might never recover from it. Any dog can only be rejected so many times before he loses all trust in human beings and may no longer be salvageable. It would be so very sad if that happened to this poor little guy.

[silent watcher]

the things he experienced in the past plays a role to his disordered behavior.

but i believe that part of it is the pack-leadership too. its not good to hold your dog when he do not see u as his leader. the pup himself believes he is the leader of the pack-ur family and ur pup. space is respect in the dog world. don't hold his face again or else u will be bitten every time u do it.

try this: watch the pup closely, when he is about to poop, strike his neck with your hand forming a claw while saying "shshshshsh". do it as quick as u can and pull ur hand immediately, if u let ur hand stays at his neck, probably the pup will bite u as he thinks u r not respecting him as the leader. do it with slight force so he wont get hurt.

the word "NO" is not needed. just do that technique every time u see him doing a bad action. in time, he will learn that u dislike his behavior. but please keep in mind that u strike his neck and say "shshshsh" as the pup is doing the undesired action, or when the pup is about to do it. striking his neck after the pup's action is meaningless!

and this:

to let him know that u are the leader set him simple rules...

make him sit first before u give his food. if he dont sit, he will have no food.
he knows how to sit, right? after he sits, give his food and then says, "eat" to signal him he can eat the food now.
this is very effective technique. i used this to my once spoiled, alpha pup. in time, he becomes really submissive to me. im sure ur pup too..

and : give his food after the walk, not before the walk so to give him an idea that he should work first before he gets a reward. that counts, believe me!

let me know ur pup's progress...

p.s: dont mind my u for you, r for are, etc,,, i just want to use mms style to make words shorter! haha! maybe some wrong grammars too, english is my secondary language... i speak filipino(bisaya).

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

I just hope that they don't give up on the little guy. He has already been through so much. If would be so tragic if once again his whole world turned upside down. He might never recover from it. Any dog can only be rejected so many times before he loses all trust in human beings and may no longer be salvageable. It would be so very sad if that happened to this poor little guy.

I agree, that is why the emphasis on patience and love at this point. It takes a lot of patience with one that has not gone through what this one has so you can only guess how much patience it will take now. It is a key word with this breed. As stated, my longest was 7 months and that was with a female that at age 4 had never been socialized to humans at all. She was kept in a pen as a puppymill breeder. Had no idea how to respond to human touch. I have had her for nearly 5 years and though still skiddish with strangers, she now comes to her name and is about as socialized as she will ever be. Here she lives out her life playing with other Miniature Pinschers in similar situations I rescued and kept so that they could just have the life of a dog. Grass yard to play in, soft beds to go in and out of and companionship from others of their own kind. This has helped many come out of their shells.
Dottie is the one on the right. When I first got her here, she would never lay down in the open. Only hide behind furniture. Now she kicks back in the sun.
She was unfortunately cropped before she was 10 weeks and then thrown into a breeding pen.

[Luv2byte]

Rubbing their face in it is abuse. I realize you don't know of any other way but that is 30yr old mentality & is abusive. It makes a dog ashamed and eventually they will eventually hide where they go, in the house.

A dog will potty within 15min of waking, eating & drinking. A dog will NOT be reliably potty trained until 5-6mo of age and then they still can't expect to hold it for an 8hr day, but expect they will let you know they need to go.

Min-pins are known as hard to housebreak. Try potty bells, just hang bells by ribbon on your door. When time to go out, take his paw and GENTLY ring the bells while saying "potty", open the door and tell him "outside". Take him out to do his thing AND HAVE TREATS with you. As soon as he potties, even if just a dribble, have a huge potty party, lots of big fun praise followed by a few treats. He will get the idea soon IF you are consistant.

If he doesn't go when within 15min when you take him out & you know he is due to go potty, bring him in, put him in his kennel for 5min, then back out, ring bells, have treats for when he goes & be ready for a party.

If he goes in the house simply clean it up and be done with it. If you catch him in the act loudly tell him "AH AH!! OUTSIDE" and PICK HIM UP and rush him to the yard - be ready for a party. It truly is an owner's own fault when the dog goes in the house when they are house training.

Have patience & realize he is already traumatized & abused, please do not add to it. This method works and works well if you are consistant.

Ellie

[CorkyMax]

It dawned on me that your getting bit may be because your pup has a sensitive jaw because of it being broken --at the very least--you messing with his head has got to bring back memories--BAD ONES---and only the pup really knows how bad these could be!!

Quote: Of course I wasn't happy about this, especially after he had just been outside and already pooped and peed. So I told him in a stern and disappointed voice "NO" and told him he was bad. I also rubbed his nose in it. He began his horrible cry and then decided to bite me. He actually got me pretty good, and I bled a little bit.


Whether it may or may not be the reason---You still should not rub the dog's face in it--PERIOD!! That is an old way (wrong way) and I remember it from when I was a kid and my dad believed in it and he was wrong to do this too!

[urbancynic]

First off, I want to thank you all for you time and replies.

Ok. I wasnt aware that the nose-rubbing was so old and out dated. I will immediately give up on that and try your other suggestions.

What I do, and did not mention, is when he does go potty outside, whoever took him out gives him loads of praise to let him know what he did was "good". We also reward him with a treat. When we bring him back inside, I make him sit, and stay, even while the door is open, before I allow him inside. He always seems to know thats expected of him and does it automatically now without me having to tell him.

Before I allow him to eat his food, I do require that he sit and stay. Of course most of the time he's so excited about food that it takes him awhile to accomplish this, but he does do it, and I do reward it with praise and his food.

As far as letting us know he has to "go", he's adopted the method of bouncing around in front of the front door. This works well for us since, other than the teenager, we pay close attention to him. Especially since he is a puppy and I do not expect him to be 100% on the housebreaking. I know he's young and has a lot to learn still, so I always make sure I have an eye on him. The "accidents" in the house arent all that frequent. The main point I had in the original post was that he was going inside even after just going outside. He hasnt had an "accident" inside his kennel from being in there overnight for quite some time now. I dont ever scold him for going in the kennel after being kept in there for any length of time because I know he simply cant hold it. I dont expect him to.

This is most important: I do not want, nor plan to get rid of him. We all agree that there is a great dog, who with lots of time, patience, training, and love will come out. What I was trying to accomplish here was see if I could get some advice on better ways to train, and correct some of his behavior. I think I've got a few good ones now that I will try.

[Luv2byte]

Besides the nose rubbing it sounds like you are on the right track with helping the little guy become a great family pet. You are also doing wonderful with him having to polite to receive his food. One thing I recommend is a good obedience class with a skilled trainer. We have taken our 18mo old eskie through 3 levels of obedience & one addi'l "follow up" type class, we are also thinking of re-doing one of her levels as sort of a refresher. Our 5mo mini aussie is just starting his second level (CGC) of obedience classes. They work wonders.

[urbancynic]

Do you know any you could suggest? The only ones I'm aware of in the Phoenix, AZ area are hosted by Petsmart.

I just want to make sure he's happy and healthy, and that the rest of us dont sacrifice any quality of life either.

[Lara's mom]

Put in your browser either - dog training phoenix or dog obedience phoenix. They both bring up quite a few different places.

[Ward9320]

I think Corky is spot on with this one