[bobo]

My wife and I have had Bobo for almost 2.5 months. We have taken him to dog parks and our local dog beach multiple times, he has always been great, and every time received Kudo's from everyone.

Today, probably his 5th or 6th time to the dog beach Once we got on the beach he played with another boxer for awhile running and playing having a good time in the water.

after about 20 minutes a couple with two mid-size collie type dogs arrived, and kept them on the leash. Bobo and the other dogs ran up to say hello. The other boxer and him ran away playing, then ran back and over top the couples dog. Immediately the couple started chastising Bobo complaining that their dogs were rescued from a puppy mill and need special care. I said to them that it is better to let their dogs off the leash, then the other dogs will know if they want to play or not. The woman freaked out and the man said there is no rule stating he was required to let their dogs off the leash. They eventually threatened to sue everyone there and finally left.

Then another guy and his 8 or so year old daughter came with a Pug mini-schnauzer mix, all the dogs, a collie, bobo, another boxer, and two labs came running up. Of course his dog was on a leash and he freaked out and swung his dog into the air in a half circle by it's neck! He immediately started complaining saying his dog was too small to play. I just shook my head and lead bobo and the other boxer away.

Am I wrong to think a dog with special issues should not be in a park, and no dog should be stuck on a leash? Should I work to train my dog not to play with small dogs?

I would appreciate anyone's info on the correct etiquette when going to a dog beach or park.
Frank (and Bobo)


PS we had a POM 2 years ago that constantly went to this same beach and played with pitt's and had a blast (Off the Leash)

[Yogi]

many dog parks these days will have 2 separate sections, one for small one for large. If the rules say the dogs can be off leash as noted in most dog parks than the only real rule is that you control the actions of your dog when meeting other dogs, leashed or not leashed. Initial meetings in many cases can be someone more dangerous in the eyes of the owner than the dog itself. But it is always a good idea to keep in mind that not everyone sees things the same way. You did not necessarily do anything wrong but to others who have never met you or your dog before just do not know differently therefore are sometimes quick to panic. You may want to try letting the dogs meet slowly at first so that the owner feels comfortable with Bobo.
good luck.

[cigwyllt]

I have no idea if there is a proper etiquette but I do all I can to keep my off lead dogs away from others, particularly if they are on a leash. I am happy for a dog to run over to mine, sniff, solicit play and for them to run around and play together. But many other people aren't. There's no way of knowing when someone is walking their dogs whether they are prepared for your dogs to play so I feel the courteous thing to do is to keep my dogs away.

I certainly would not assume just because people are on a beach where there are lots of dogs off leash that they would want mine to run over and play with theirs.

While there is no reason for the rudeness you experienced with the collie owners, I must admit I would feel it quite ill mannered if two dogs ran over mine in the way you have described. I would expect the owner to apologise. Dogs can learn about personal space and manners, just as children have to do, and if my dogs acted in that way to someone else I would be very apologetic.

When you are walking in a popular dog place you don't know the other people, you don't know their dogs and there are many valid reasons why a dog can't be let off lead. Puppy mill dogs have so little experience of the sort of life our dogs take for granted it is possible that they have never seen dogs play in the way that yours was. It is quite likely that the owners were told not to let the dogs off lead for an extended period of time while they bond but surely that shouldn't mean that they are confined to the house or to lead walks.

In an ideal world all us dog walkers would put ourselves in each others shoes and have respect for the way others are bringing up their dogs but sadly that doesn't always happen. Your dog was disrespectful but lots of people would shrug it off, as you would. The other owners were rude but probably scared/anxious about your dog.

I have three dogs - one Staffie/GSD cross, a Jack Russell X Patterdale and a Jack Russell. The two little ones love other dogs and when we went to socialisation class my JR palled up with a Doberman and they would have spent the whole session playing chase together so it is ridiculous to say that the dog was "too small" to play but without knowing your dog and the other dog he was playing with it is understandable that the owner didn't want to risk it.

[Todd]

I have encountered the same exact problem in the past. In my opinion, if owners are going to freak out if a dog runs up to them and their dog, they should walk the dog somewhere else or at another time where there aren't dog running around off leash. If you decide to take your dog to an off leash dog park or beach and keep them on a leash, expect off leashed dogs to run up. That's just the way it is. Dog will be dogs. If you don't want this to happen, take your leashed dog on a walk somewhere else where there aren't dog off leash. Either do that or don't complain. It's an off leash park/beach for a reason. It's not that you don't have the right to keep your dog on a leash (you do), but you have NO right to complain and freak out about an off least dog (completely legal) to run up to you and your dog. These are dogs not choir boys

I witnessed the same problem a few weeks ago. A woman was jogging with her dog in the park on leash and screamed at another dog and its owner because the dog was off leash and ran over to the dog to greet him. It was completely 100% legal to have your dog off leash at that particular time of day. It is legal in my park after 5:00 PM in the winter time. The woman should have eithert jogged the dog somewhere else where there aren't dogs off leash, came at a different time of day when dogs aren't permitted to be off leash, or just kept her mouth shut.

Just my two cents.

[cigwyllt]

For me the problem would not be the dogs running up to say hello but the barging and jumping afterwards. If someone makes it obvious that they don't want your dogs to play with theirs then it is only polite to keep your dog away?

While you have been upset by the rudeness of the people with the collies I think it is overshadowing what is actually a valid need on their part - the need for their dogs to be in a place where they can observe the sights and sounds of ordinary dogs doing ordinary dog things.

I guess it is different here in the UK, certainly in our corner, because the majority of outdoors areas allow dogs to be off leash although many people choose not to do that everywhere. Therefore there is a need for much more give and take between off leash and on leash. Perhaps with the emphasis on dog parks and the like it is different in the States but generally speaking I would play safe and keep my dogs under control.

[bobo]

thank you for the replies all. It is very evident in the responses as to the difference of opinions; which is not 100% what I expected but probably gives the proper scope of the general opinion.

Just to add, this Location is essentially a cove type area a quarter mile long, surrounded by water. Every dog in the past three years i've seen has been off leash and playing. It is normal to see 60+ dogs at this location all playing and running and jumping on each other and in the ocean. (we are in South Florida!)

cigwyllt, I appreciate your response and opinion. I think I feel Todd has hit the nail on the head. If your dog is not the right fit for a place where dogs will play, than maybe they should be taken to a park such as YOGI has stated with "small" and "large" animal sections. or if mentally limited, introduced to other dogs in a more controlled area and at a lesser quantity.

I think if another person ran over me than it would be disrespectful, but the boxer that was constantly rolling BoBo over in the sand, to them both, it was just doggie play time. Dog's do not have the social restrictions that humans have set up for each other. If another person sniffed around my bum I might think it rude as well.

I guess I am just very upset that people will refuse to understand how dogs actually think and work. Especially with all the resources out there, they do not even need to figure things out themselves.

Please keep responding if you have any additional information to add. I really enjoy your opinions. I want to see what people out there really think so maybe we can eventually all come to proper conclusions.

Thank you all!

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by bobo

thank you for the replies all. It is very evident in the responses as to the difference of opinions; which is not 100% what I expected but probably gives the proper scope of the general opinion.

Just to add, this Location is essentially a cove type area a quarter mile long, surrounded by water. Every dog in the past three years i've seen has been off leash and playing. It is normal to see 60+ dogs at this location all playing and running and jumping on each other and in the ocean. (we are in South Florida!)

cigwyllt, I appreciate your response and opinion. I think I feel Todd has hit the nail on the head. If your dog is not the right fit for a place where dogs will play, than maybe they should be taken to a park such as YOGI has stated with "small" and "large" animal sections. or if mentally limited, introduced to other dogs in a more controlled area and at a lesser quantity.

I think if another person ran over me than it would be disrespectful, but the boxer that was constantly rolling BoBo over in the sand, to them both, it was just doggie play time. Dog's do not have the social restrictions that humans have set up for each other. If another person sniffed around my bum I might think it rude as well.

I guess I am just very upset that people will refuse to understand how dogs actually think and work. Especially with all the resources out there, they do not even need to figure things out themselves.

Please keep responding if you have any additional information to add. I really enjoy your opinions. I want to see what people out there really think so maybe we can eventually all come to proper conclusions.

Thank you all!

Something that maybe overlooked in all this is that many people view their dogs as children. Leashing is a way to avoid accidents etc so to them they are protecting them. When a dog off leash comes at them which in many cases can be running not necessarily walking up to them patiently, people instinctively fear that their dog (child) could be hurt. When you think about it for a minute you may be able to understand their concern and reaction.
Given time, people realize that there is no real threat. Until that time all you really can do is sort of monitor your dog to avoid those that are with people who may not understand. I believe it is fair enough to give them the benefit of the doubt even if their reaction is somewhat off the wall, so to speak.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Something that maybe overlooked in all this is that many people view their dogs as children. Leashing is a way to avoid accidents etc so to them they are protecting them. When a dog off leash comes at them which in many cases can be running not necessarily walking up to them patiently, people instinctively fear that their dog (child) could be hurt. When you think about it for a minute you may be able to understand their concern and reaction.
Given time, people realize that there is no real threat. Until that time all you really can do is sort of monitor your dog to avoid those that are with people who may not understand. I believe it is fair enough to give them the benefit of the doubt even if their reaction is somewhat off the wall, so to speak.

i understand and respect what you're saying, however i feel theat people who keep their dogs on leash at an off leash location should look out for and avoid dogs off leash. owners with dogs off leash shouldn't have to worry about avoiding leashed dog because the location is designated for off leash dogs. this doesn't mean you cant leash your dog, just dont flip out if an unleashed dg runs up to you.it's kind of like an adult yelling at a group of kids for splashing around in the local swimming pool. it's not against the rules for kids to splash around a bit and have a good time, therefore the adult has no right to yell at the kid for abiding by the rules. in this case, the adult could easily just swim during rest period when there are no kids in the pool. same goes for a dog at the park. off leash dogs are legal in this case, so if you dont want a dog approaching you and your leashed dog thencome when dogs arent running around off leash or walk somewhere else. it would also kind of be like a satin worshiper going to church and getting pissed because the priest was preeching about God. why would you expect anything else going to a church??? same thing here. why go to an off leash dog park or leash if you're going to get pissed about an off leash dog running up to you Seems like asking for it if you ask me.

[cigwyllt]

"i understand and respect what you're saying, however i feel theat people who keep their dogs on leash at an off leash location should look out for and avoid dogs off leash"

That is the difference between the States and the UK. Most of our beaches are "Dog Friendly" and dog parks don't exist so there are very few places you can walk a dog on lead and NOT have dogs running lose so it is reasonable to consider how other people will be feeling and to try and read their body language if your dog goes haring off to meet theirs.

Would the couple with the border collies have known that it was common for dogs to be off leash there the whole time? Perhaps they have been there countless times in the past without any problems at all which is why they were so shocked by Bobo and his friend.

It is really hard for me to understand why it seems to be ok for two dogs to run up to a strangers dogs and when it is obvious that they are not playing to be allowed to run around so close? Surely the dogs should have been distracted by you and the other owner?


"Seems like asking for it if you ask me. "

That, to me, is entirely self centred. Surely if you have control of your dog (and if you don't he should not be off leash in the vicinity of other dogs anyway) and you see someone with a dog on leash you can call him away and redirect him.

If everyone put themselves in someone else's shoes and used a bit of consideration and respect leashed and off leash dogs could use the same area without issues.

[Lunareclipse]

I think a bitof free time to play with other dogs can take care of "special issues". They may have came from puppy mills, but they are still dogs and sometimes having a little romp time off of the leash might do them more good than harm. I rescued Luna from a kill shelter. She was brought there straight from the vet because the other owners didn't want to deal with her epilepsy. But I take her to the dog park and let her run around like any other dog. Her "special needs" doesn't stop her from acting like any other dog. Just like a person in a wheelchair is still a person. Those puppy mill dog owners in your post are probably doing more harm than good by over-protecting thier dogs. Even though they might think they are doing good.

[cigwyllt]

I think it is such a shame that it ended up negatively for every one when it didn't have to - Bobo's owner could have talked to the collies owners about what constitutes safe and appropriate dog play - it is amazing the number of folk who have NO IDEA that chasing, mouthing, mounting can all be appropriate and fun in the eyes of our dogs. And the collies owners could have explained why their specifically needed special care and what their particular issues were. Collies are frequently nervous, highly strung dogs. It could well be that they do not have reliable recall or no knowledge of how to meet and greet other dogs.

To be honest it sounds like both parties felt they were totally in the right and the other was in the wrong when a bit of give and take and communication could have worked wonders.

[Lara's mom]

My local off leash park doesn't have separate areas for big dogs and little dogs so, I don't take my little Jacks there. I have found that people who own big dogs don't seem to understand that their 85 pound animal could do serious harm to the small dogs. Their feeling seems to be, if you don't want my enormous dog running full tilt into your little 14 pound one and knocking it flying and scaring the hell out of it, leave.

The park has basically been taken over by people with big dogs. You very seldom see people there who have small dogs. Is it fair? No. However, at the end of the day, I'm responsible for the safety of my dogs and there really isn't a lot I can do if the people with big dogs won't "play fair." I'm lucky that my building has a huge park where my little ones can run and play without risking injury or being frightened by huge dogs that the owners cannot or will not control them.

[bobo]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

My local off leash park doesn't have separate areas for big dogs and little dogs so, I don't take my little Jacks there. I have found that people who own big dogs don't seem to understand that their 85 pound animal could do serious harm to the small dogs. Their feeling seems to be, if you don't want my enormous dog running full tilt into your little 14 pound one and knocking it flying and scaring the hell out of it, leave.

The park has basically been taken over by people with big dogs. You very seldom see people there who have small dogs. Is it fair? No. However, at the end of the day, I'm responsible for the safety of my dogs and there really isn't a lot I can do if the people with big dogs won't "play fair." I'm lucky that my building has a huge park where my little ones can run and play without risking injury or being frightened by huge dogs that the owners cannot or will not control them.

Hello, Lara's Mom, you said that larger dog owners aren't "playing fair" what would be your recommendation for playing fair? And a realistic recommendation.

Just as an example If all larger dogs were kept on leash, or trained to stay within 5 feet of their owners than the scales of fairness would tip right?

Please let me know what you think! this is the response I have been looking for.

Frank

[Lara's mom]

I don't expect people with large dogs to keep them on a leash. That is what an off leash park is for. What I would like is for the owners of those large off leash dogs to have a reasonable amount of control over them so that my small dogs aren't injured or frightened half to death when a dog who weighs 5 times as much as they do comes rushing at them.

As I said, I just don't go to the off leash park anymore. My Border Collie who just turned 13 a few days ago was badly injured by a large and unruly dog when she was a baby. She lost six months of her puppyhood because of that dog. I learned my lesson. The b***H who owned the dog never even apologised.

[Lunareclipse]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

I don't expect people with large dogs to keep them on a leash. That is what an off leash park is for. What I would like is for the owners of those large off leash dogs to have a reasonable amount of control over them so that my small dogs aren't injured or frightened half to death when a dog who weighs 5 times as much as they do comes rushing at them.

As I said, I just don't go to the off leash park anymore. My Border Collie who just turned 13 a few days ago was badly injured by a large and unruly dog when she was a baby. She lost six months of her puppyhood because of that dog. I learned my lesson. The b***H who owned the dog never even apologised.

We have a dog park with both sides for large and small dogs. I hate it when people let their little dogs run on the big dog side and then get pissy because someone's large dog (like mine) want's to play with the small dog. Some people don't have any common sense. How can they expect my lerge dogs (Buster in particular) to not play with their small dogs when they are on the big dog side. This is why they have two seperate places for different sized dogs here.

[cigwyllt]

"I hate it when people let their little dogs run on the big dog side and then get pissy because someone's large dog (like mine) want's to play with the small dog."

Don't blame you - I would too. If you are somewhere where there are size restrictions and someone brings the wrong sized dog in of course that is annoying and it is up to that owner to go to the right place but in a public area such as the beach I don't think you should let your dog run free if you can not control it. If I see someone with a dog on a leash I assume that they do not want their dog to play and respect that and keep mine away.

As the owner of two "little" dogs I don't think they are in much danger from a large friendly dog and I don't think they are a threat either but I still respect the body language and personal space of other people/dogs and keep mine away.

[Lara's mom]

I really wish we had a separate area for large and small dogs. I think it would be better for all the dogs and their parents.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

I really wish we had a separate area for large and small dogs. I think it would be better for all the dogs and their parents.

I agree. Lucky is a bigger dog and when she plays with smaller dogs she kind of topples them over. Their owners get all bent out of shape. doesn't seem quite right to me.

[Lara's mom]

I know from experience what can happen when small dogs play with dogs who are too large and heavy for them. Bailey was badly injured by a dog who was too big for her back when she was a six month old puppy. It took six months, several specialists, enough x rays to make her glow in the dark, a variety of pain medication, a round of steroids and several thousand dollars before she was able to walk again. Would I take a chance of something like that happening again? Not a chance!