[Lara's mom]

I've read about the histories of a number of breeds who are at least in part, made up of now extinct breeds. How does a breed of dog become extinct? Is it due to a loss of popularity or a major illness?

[cigwyllt]

I think it is down to a lack of popularity - there are some wonderful terrier breeds here in the UK that are rapidly disappearing. The Sealyham is a case in point - there are more rhinos in the world than there are Sealyhams! But I've noticed that here are some breeds that are simply no longer fashionable/popular - poodles, daschunds, pekes - all breeds that would once have been seen regularly now seem to have been replaced by Bischons, Maltese, Shi Tzu. I can't remember the last time I saw a peke.

[Lara's mom]

I've also heard that there is a breed of terrier called a dandie dinemount (sp)? that is endangered in North America. Is this breed also endangered in the U.K.?

BTW, there are lots of pekinese (sp)? in Canada.

[Todd]

I agree. I think it's just from the lack of popularity and lack of desire to breed them further.

[Lara's mom]

O.k. So, what would cause these dogs who have been popular for a very long time to decline to the point that they become extinct or even endangered? Is it a fashion thing? Have certain breeds become so known for genetic flaws that nobody wants to touch them?

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Lara's mom

O.k. So, what would cause these dogs who have been popular for a very long time to decline to the point that they become extinct or even endangered? Is it a fashion thing? Have certain breeds become so known for genetic flaws that nobody wants to touch them?

Many overlook the obvious when researching why some breeds are now extinct.
Keep in mind, dogs were not bred per se as companions but to serve a working purpose for man. With the onset of "civilization" and the modern age, many of these jobs were no longer in demand thus the dogs were no longer prized for what they were bred to do. Breeding them in a sense was to create a breed that was no longer required. Even in one of my breeds the Deutscherpinscher, it became nearly extinct by WWII. If it had not been for Werner Jung escaping Germany with what has been reported to be 3 registered bitches and eventually breeding them to oversized Miniature Pinschers through the 1950's, the German Pinscher would most likely be extinct today. The Prazsky Krysarik was near extinction until just some years back when a few in the Czech region commenced restoring this breed to its ancient history which goes back tp 1058. Popularity these days in many cases is what drives breeders back to preserving breeds near extinction though only after the realization that so many have been lost. Unfortunately with this are those breeders attempting to create what has been extinct for years and tagging them with the name when in fact they are just mixed breeds with no real history to support them. The Harlequin (Harlekin) Pinscher was a ratting and ferreting breed found in Germany. Resembling a larger Miniature Pinscher (Zwergpinscher) their name was given based on their coat, Harlequin. The same as found in the Great Dane. This breed was in the area of 16 to 19 inches weighing in the 20lbs range. Extinct since the 1800's as for as registry is concerned, some though could still be in existence in Germany. To note, most farmers where many terrier breeds were from were not meant for show but for work. Therefore the line may still be in existence somewhere.
Genetics is not the reason for extinction in breeds but simply the no longer need the dog as the work is now done in other ways reason for them being extinct.
Breeding originally though rarely documented when putting breeds together for their creation were done with much desire and care to create the healthiest working breed for their particular job as could be done during that time. Breeders today in most cases have overlooked the effort it took to create and work out the problems most breeds originally had. Hence with the onset of the 20th century breeder who generally does not breed for the working dog but more for show has without knowing created overly refined or smaller versions of the original dog. This has brought back many of the health issues that the original breeders worked so hard to eliminate.
Those that breed to the land of origin generally have much healthier pups than those looking solely at dog shows as the goal.
This in no way is meant to imply that these breeders are bad only to point out what most long time breeders have felt for some time. I could care less if my Miniature Pinschers are to show quality as mine are bred to the terrier which they are. Most show Miniature Pinschers would not know what to do with a rat if they saw it. Mine are bred with their instincts intact and know exactly what to do. Some take offense to this because they feel that I am pushing the breed out of the Toy category. I am and always have been an advocate of putting breeds where they belong based on what they were bred for in the first place. Not based on what we made them into. In Europe where majority of the dogs come from, those that are shown are shown in categories for which they were bred ie: terriers, etc.

[cigwyllt]

That's really interesting Yogi. Here in the UK the Jack Russell (my passion) is not a registered breed according to UK Kennel Club. There are a couple of well established breed registers but not recognised by the KC. Maybe it's just because I love them so much but they are extremely popular, diverse in colour, coat and leg length and still worked both in the countryside and in towns. So that must be what is keeping them "out there" as it were.

The Dandie Dinmont is endangered as is the Glen of Imaal - both dogs that fulfil the same working brief as the Jack Russell - yet while the Jack Russell prospers and seems to be everywhere they are disappearing.

While I see Yogi's point and it makes perfect sense it doesn't explain the proliferation of little fluffy breeds such as the Bichon (nothing against Bichons - the ones I've met have been very sweet) and the disappearance of the toy poodle for instance.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

That's really interesting Yogi. Here in the UK the Jack Russell (my passion) is not a registered breed according to UK Kennel Club. There are a couple of well established breed registers but not recognised by the KC. Maybe it's just because I love them so much but they are extremely popular, diverse in colour, coat and leg length and still worked both in the countryside and in towns. So that must be what is keeping them "out there" as it were.

The Dandie Dinmont is endangered as is the Glen of Imaal - both dogs that fulfil the same working brief as the Jack Russell - yet while the Jack Russell prospers and seems to be everywhere they are disappearing.

While I see Yogi's point and it makes perfect sense it doesn't explain the proliferation of little fluffy breeds such as the Bichon (nothing against Bichons - the ones I've met have been very sweet) and the disappearance of the toy poodle for instance.

The Bichon like many small breeds have gained in popularity as with so many other breeds as they are a companion breed of dog. In todays society, these type of dogs fill a void that a couple hundred years ago was not as important when it came to the breed proliferation. Today this is different and therefore you will see more small dogs as companion pets.

Much of the confusion with the JRT not being recognized as with here in the US also not recognized by the AKC is the link to Parson Russells Terrier. The common nickname for John is Jack thus the Jack Russell terrier as opposed to the Parson John Russell terrier. Though there are breed clubs for the JRT, until accepted literally as a separate breed for the Parson, they will probably never be recognized. In the states the short legged versions have been reportedly linked to the use of a Chihuahua which makes sense as a short legged version can obtain access to smaller holes much like the Dachshund.
Whether true or not it will probably never be told since with the majority of todays purebreds, there is very little to no documentation as to their creation as far as what breeds were initially used to create them. At this point the JRT is a strain of the Parson Russell which most likely explains why it has not been officially recognized. But on that note, we recognize 2 variations of the Corgi and are they not really the same. In the US we recognize the Papillon and Phalene as one breed, the Papillon yet in Europe they are recognized as 2 separate breeds. Go figure.....In Europe, the Miniature Pinscher competes against the Miniature and Standard Schnauzer as well as the German Pinscher, in Cat 2 terrier classification.
As you can see by the link to the pic I have included, the European Miniature Pinscher looks nothing like our overly refined small ones as seen in the UK and North America. But this is what they were supposed to look like.

[DoggieVogue]

Thanks for bringing this up. I've always wondered how a breed becomes extinct. I have a Boston Terrier and 2 of the dogs Bostons come from are extinct breeds. That always baffled. Makes sense now though! Thanks.

[cigwyllt]

Wow - that dog looks like a red Patterdale. Very handsome and, as you say, nothing like the miniature Pinscher as we recognise them.

Historically there are big differences between the Pembroke and Cardigan Corgis - I'm from Pembrokeshire, Cardigan is the adjoining county to the north of ours. They developed from totally different blood lines - the Cardigan is from mastiff bloodlines and the Pembroke is apparently from the Northern group as defined by Fiennes in "The Natural History of Dogs". A well bred Pembroke will be born tailess - they are not docked, they are tailless. The colours are different and so are the sizes. They are quite different.

I've not heard of chihuahua being part of the JRT makeup (by JRT I mean the short legged variety) traditionally. Nowadays with the fashion for increasingly smaller and smaller dogs it is quite common for JRT/Chi crosses to be sold a miniature JR's but they are not "real" JR's.

I still think that fashion plays a huge part in which dogs are viewed as companion dogs. Why has the Peke been dropped for instance in favour of the Shi Tzu? Why a Bichon not a poodle? They seem to have taken over the roles the Peke and poodle used to fill.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by cigwyllt

Wow - that dog looks like a red Patterdale. Very handsome and, as you say, nothing like the miniature Pinscher as we recognise them.

Historically there are big differences between the Pembroke and Cardigan Corgis - I'm from Pembrokeshire, Cardigan is the adjoining county to the north of ours. They developed from totally different blood lines - the Cardigan is from mastiff bloodlines and the Pembroke is apparently from the Northern group as defined by Fiennes in "The Natural History of Dogs". A well bred Pembroke will be born tailess - they are not docked, they are tailless. The colours are different and so are the sizes. They are quite different.

I've not heard of chihuahua being part of the JRT makeup (by JRT I mean the short legged variety) traditionally. Nowadays with the fashion for increasingly smaller and smaller dogs it is quite common for JRT/Chi crosses to be sold a miniature JR's but they are not "real" JR's.

I still think that fashion plays a huge part in which dogs are viewed as companion dogs. Why has the Peke been dropped for instance in favour of the Shi Tzu? Why a Bichon not a poodle? They seem to have taken over the roles the Peke and poodle used to fill.

That is true in many regards when it comes to different breed preferences. Funny thing is that in 10 years it will probably change again.
Many are aware in certain breeds that are registered outside of the Manchester Terrier for one, has in their breed standard a height range. This range is normally only 2 to 3 inches. When Parson John Russell and his father created their terrier it had a range of 10 to 16 inches. That is a large area to work not to mention 3 different coat types, Coarse, Smooth and Rough.
I know that in this country until 2003 both breeds short and tall were referred to as jack Russell Terriers. They split into 2 groups with the AKC adopting the Parson Russell Terrier name and recognizing the taller ones.
The FCI recognizes the shorter ones as Jack Russell Terriers. The UKC I think recognizes the short ones but under the name Parson Russell, if I am correct.

[cigwyllt]

Here in the UK the Parson Russell Terrier is the long legged dog recognised by the KC, the Jack Russell is the smaller dog which is longer than it is tall and they are not recognised. The coat can be broken, rough or smooth in both strains and in many ways the breed standards are very similar as regards the shape of the head, the set of the ears, colouring (at least 51% white), attitude. Are the short legs generally known as Puddin' Jacks or is that a more colloquial term?

Sorry - I think we have wandered off topic here - Jacks are my passion LOL!

But going back to the extinct breed question I am really surprised by the very obvious shift in fashion here in the UK. Many breeds that were common in my childhood are rarely seen these days.

[Todd]

If anyone's interested, here's an interesting list I found online listing extinct breeds of dogs;

Alaunt
Alpine Mastiff
Alpine Spaniel

Blue Paul Terrier
Braque du Puy
Bullenbeisser

Chien-gris
Cordoba Fighting Dog
Cumberland Sheepdog

Dogo Cubano
Dogs of Roman Britain

English Water Spaniel
English White Terrier

Hare Indian Dog
Hawaiian Poi Dog
Hunting Dog (Felids)

Kurī

Molossus (dog)
Moscow Water Dog

Norfolk Spaniel
North Country Beagle

Old English Bulldog

Paisley Terrier

Rastreador Brasileiro

Salish Wool Dog
Southern Hound
St. John's Water Dog

Tahltan Bear Dog
Talbot (dog)
Toy Bulldog
Toy Trawler Spaniel
Turnspit Dog
Tweed Water Spaniel

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Todd

If anyone's interested, here's an interesting list I found online listing extinct breeds of dogs;

Alaunt
Alpine Mastiff
Alpine Spaniel

Blue Paul Terrier
Braque du Puy
Bullenbeisser

Chien-gris
Cordoba Fighting Dog
Cumberland Sheepdog

Dogo Cubano
Dogs of Roman Britain

English Water Spaniel
English White Terrier

Hare Indian Dog
Hawaiian Poi Dog
Hunting Dog (Felids)

Kurī

Molossus (dog)
Moscow Water Dog

Norfolk Spaniel
North Country Beagle

Old English Bulldog

Paisley Terrier

Rastreador Brasileiro

Salish Wool Dog
Southern Hound
St. John's Water Dog

Tahltan Bear Dog
Talbot (dog)
Toy Bulldog
Toy Trawler Spaniel
Turnspit Dog
Tweed Water Spaniel

Now, here's a list of "endangered" or rare breeds;

Alaunt
Alpine Mastiff
Alpine Spaniel

Blue Paul Terrier
Braque du Puy
Bullenbeisser

Chien-gris
Cordoba Fighting Dog
Cumberland Sheepdog

Dogo Cubano
Dogs of Roman Britain

English Water Spaniel
English White Terrier

Hare Indian Dog
Hawaiian Poi Dog
Hunting Dog (Felids)

Molossus (dog)
Moscow Water Dog

Norfolk Spaniel
North Country Beagle

Old English Bulldog

Paisley Terrier

Rastreador Brasileiro

Salish Wool Dog
Southern Hound
St. John's Water Dog

Tahltan Bear Dog
Talbot (dog)
Toy Bulldog
Toy Trawler Spaniel
Turnspit Dog
Tweed Water Spaniel

Todd, the list for extinct and endangered is the same list. Also to note, there are breeds that are extinct that are not on the list.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Todd, the list for extinct and endangered is the same list. Also to note, there are breeds that are extinct that are not on the list.

oh gosh! Must have copied the same list twice. sorry.

I went ahead and deleted the list of endangered breeds that I screwed up on. Can quite find a list of endangered breeds. Seems people online give lists that contradict one another when referring to endangered breeds and actual breeds that are extinct.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Todd

oh gosh! Must have copied the same list twice. sorry.

I went ahead and deleted the list of endangered breeds that I screwed up on. Can quite find a list of endangered breeds. Seems people online give lists that contradict one another when referring to endangered breeds and actual breeds that are extinct.

that is true. The Harlequin Pinscher is extinct to all intents and purposes. Yet if you search online you will find a link a Harlequin Pinschers. Problem is the pic is not of a Harlequin but of a German Pinscher that is red and not is not Harlequin marked or colored.

[reeskujo]

i only know about Akita's...They became almost extinct bc of dying during dog fighting....The American soldiers in the WW brought some of the remaining breeds to America and that's how they were repopulated here....In Japan they finally declared them a national treasue so they bred the remaining ones to repopulate.