[Tigger11]

Hi there. Im new on here and desperate for advice from similar problems. I have a 6 mth labxgs. He has always mouthed/bit and is getting worse. He is particular bad on a lead and has to be muzzled. He bites hard and draws blood even through jackets. I invested in a trainer for help and advice, they recomended changing his diet to raw. After a month, he got slowly worse. I put him on pets at home dry 3 weeks ago and have seen a slight diference as in he sometimes chills and relaxes with me. He was castrated 2 weeks ago and the vet nurse recomended I try a lower protein diet such as chappie. He has his good days and bad days. today, hes constantly had a go and bit into my leg. Has anybody else had dealings with an aggressive pup?? Any advice is welcome, I have two young children and am at my wits end about whats the right thing to do. I have tried nearly everything to stop him biting me, I dont think hes aggressive with everybody, its just me who he challenges all the time. He quite happily goes to other adults for a pet without biting.

[Ghst]

I think its a dominance thing going on with him. If he were my dog, I would, when he bit me, immediately grab him by the side of his head, Use a firm but not a death grip or anything, but a firm grasp. Immediately put the dog down on his side and hold him down. ( You are trying to imitate how a mother dog would correct such behavior. She would be strict and to the point, letting him know that she is the boss, and such behavior will not be tolerated period.) The grasp should be placed sorta to the area just where the jawbone connects. Once you put the dog on his side, you can easily hold him down with this hold.
Once the dog surrenders, then just let go.
LOL It kinda sounds like I'm giving a MMA lesson.

[Tigger11]

Thanks i will give that a go. Whenever I try and grab his collar , he thinks its a game and just gets worse. Its a constant battle between us for who is the boss and the more I stand my ground, the worse he seems to get. I have tried pining him down before but to no luck , I will definately try your advice. thankyou.

[Ghst]

Here is the advice given to an older couple who has a similar problem with their excited, playful biting pup (with sharp teeth that hurt). Anyway this is from Cezar Millian.

A pack leaders is not a chew toy, so what this behavior tells me is that you are not the dog's pack leader; you are a friend. You need to adopt the concept, "body, mind, and then heart." Right now, it appears you are embracing "heart, body, and then mind." If you are willing to make that switch, your dog will stop seeing you as a toy.

I do not know how you interact with your dog, but I would like for you to pay attention to the energy you are sharing with your dog. A lot of people start of the day with affection first. When dogs get excited, they can get mouthy. When you get up in the morning, are you greeting Mother Nature with excited energy or are you establishing your leadership by sharing calm-assertive energy? You should only share affection after you exercise and discipline.

Is your husband experiencing the same problems? If not, perhaps he has already established himself as the dog's pack leader. Often, a husband and wife do not get along with the dog in the same way. Sometimes it is necessary to have a third person come in and suggest a strategy that will work for both of you.

Add some structure – rules, boundaries, limitations – and that will make you the authority figure in the dog's life. Once you become pack leader, you will no longer have the chewing issue.

Stay calm and assertive,

Cesar Millan

Maybe that can help you, with your dog.

[Tigger11]

Think a calm and assertive way is the only way forward. Ive been so het up for the last few months from the biting that perhaps ive been responding in the wrong way. It is very hard to remain calm when he wont let go and bites through several layers of clothing . Thanks for that last message, a calmer and more relaxed me might help mellow his mood.

[muttsneedluvtoo]

Other ways to assert yourself as the alpha in the house are to not allow your pooch on the bed or couch with you. When you play games (tug of war?) only allow him to win 10% of the time. At meal times, make sure his bowl isn't filled until after you have eaten and your dishes have been cleared away. Just a few simple ideas that may help

I personally don't believe in forcing the dog to the floor. I think its a needless way to scare the crap out of your dog.

[Taming Rover]

First of all, I think that the aforementioned "alpha roll" can be a good tool for [B]professionals[B] when they feel it necessary to use. I think done in the right way and with the right energy this can be a helpful way to show your dog that you are the leader. However I would not recommend you do this. If you attempt to use this method and are unsuccessful for whatever reason this can further damage your relationship and can be potentially harmful in many ways possibly contributing to your dog becoming more confident that you are weaker than him and making the biting worse. You have to be prepared and knowledgeable on how to follow through, you have to make sure there is no frustration involved on your part and there is a very real possibility of a bite happening if you attempt this yourself without the help of a trainer. Hence why Cesar says at the beginning of each episode "Do NOT attempt these things without consulting a professional"

It's good that you had a trainer come in but if all you got from that was "change the diet" then if it were me I'd me in the market for a new trainer. I think without seeing the behavior and weather it is really just over the top mouthing, or if it's real aggression or purely dominance related, it's hard to give the proper advice. I would get a new trainer in, do your research first and get someone who you feel confident can help with these specific issues, and teach you about the proper way to assert yourself and set boundaries and gain trust and respect from your dog.

This is a very important and serious issue especially since you have children in the house and needs to be dealt with properly or else is will get worse.
Fortunately your dog is still young and going through the very testy phase of adolescence and is it very possible for this to become better. If you are able to take the right steps you can work now to create a wonderful and rewarding relationship with your dog based on respect, trust and loyalty!

Also just as a side note, I would probably not play tug of war games with this dog. I would avoid these types of games all together! If for some reason you do not want to avoid them then NEVER let him win at this, not even 10% of the time. If your dog thinks it a gamble weather he can win out and prove he is stronger he will continue to try.

[Tigger11]

Thanks so much for the advice.I never have played tug of war games and have removed the sofa from the room he spends most time in. His biting varies, mouthing when I enter the room, nips when hes ignored and very hard biting when hes on a lead. He has always tried to bite when out for walkies. 2 weeks ago,he bruised my hand so much I have to muzzle him on every walk. He got the muzzle off today and within 2 minutes tried to bite. He has settled in last few weeks as in he will now sit down in the same room and settle. The trainer mentioned I may be the wrong owner which she might be right. She has helped my by way of getting a collar and lead on and getting him back out on walks. Even putting a lead on provokes him to bite me.
Ive reduced his time in the crate as I thought that it wasnt helping his frustrations. Hes fine with neighbours, who are male, and infact hes better with my dad, at the most he will try and mouth. My friends are ok for a while then about an hour later hel have a nip. Its hard accepting hes aggressive. i have previously had 2 black adorable labs.

[Taming Rover]

It seems to me that you have a decision to make. If your trainer suggested that you might not be a good match for the dog, that's something worth taking into consideration, and not being able to see you two together I cannot obviously say my opinion on weather this might be the case or not. However I still believe that since you have had dogs previously, and since he is still so young that it is something you can work through and come out on top, and successful with it. But you have to evaluate that for yourself, If you are getting frustrated more than not, and/or after being completely honest with yourself find that you are not prepared to put the necessary time and effort into this dog now when it counts the most, then perhaps it's worth considering finding a home for him with someone who does have the time and energy.
There's no doubt that it will take considerable effort on your part if you choose to take on this challenge, but again, I believe that he is going through an adolescent phase in which they become extremely testy and want to try their best to exploit any weakness they see in us as potential to move up in rank. This is your time to be strong, set your boundaries and stick to them, consistency, patience and leadership are the keys. And also one of the most important things you can do for him is to make sure he is getting enough exercise! it's possible that if his energy has not been drained that his biting could be at least partly a result of that, where by he is attempting to release frustration in that way.

There is a way you can sort of test this theory out if you can take the time for it. Try giving your dog 3 hours at least of heavy exercise every day for 5 days straight. it doesn't have to be three hours consecutively, but a tottaly of 3 hours minimum of hard core exercise, (not just a walk around the block!) I'm talking running, or maybe hardcore playing with another dog that he gets along with well (under strict supervision of course) even a treadmill if you have one but getting outside is preferable since being outdoors and in new environments is also a mental exercise. If you do this and after the 5 days you find that his biting is getting much better then you know that at least a large portion of the problem is lack of exercise and you can then over the next few days bump it back to about an hour and a half per day.

The reality is that labs are quite often very high energy and can be hyperactive for the first 3-4 years before they seem to hit a stride and mellow out. You might be in for a bit of a bumpy ride but I think once you move through these challenges your dog can help you become a better person as well as a more adept dog owner. Cesar Millan always says that "we don't always get the dog we want but we always get the dog we need" These are words I hold to be true. However again, you have to be honest with yourself about weather or not you are ready and willing to put in the work to make things right.

Another thing is that it's possible and likely that what you are experiencing is not aggression, but rather dominance, the two can often be confused but are very different things and have different ways of dealing with them. I would again suggest maybe getting a second opinion from another trainer before you decide the best course of action.

[lange]

There's alot of good info given. Although I don't think you should alpha roll him. I think in your situation you will personally make matters worse. You have to be 100% confident doing this with a dog like yours. Otherwise he'll propbably win & again dominate you.

I agree that he's dominate, not aggressive. If you can show him you're the dominate one in appropriate ways he will challenge you less. There are dogs who will challenge often & then others who would never dream of it. So you once you learn how to be in charge you need to be consistent. If your dog thought you were in charge it wouldn't nip visitors.

Your dog should have less freedom in being off leash. He needs to submit to the leash and then you need to have him on it anytime you have company or he misbehaves. You should do this up & until the day you can control him with verbal or signal commands.

As Cesar Millan also says, you need to trust your dog in order for the dog to trust your leadership. In order for you to trust your dog you need to trust yourself in leading correctly. READ as many books as you can about dog behavior, training & leadership. watch videos to see the body language used in both trainer & dog. Then you need to find a new trainer. If your trainer doesn't believe they can help you then they can't because they've given up on you & won't give you 100%.

Also, never put your dog in high energy situations. He can't handle them right now. He needs to be worked on in calm, controlled environments, then you move up when that's mastered. Be sure you're dog is being physically worked. The less energy he has the less energy he has to fight.

Personally, it just sounds (to me) like you need to learn & understand dogs more. Once you gain more knowledge you'll feel more confident!

[Tigger11]

Thankyou to you all for the sound advice, I wish I had discovered this website prior to getting in touch and paying for a trainer. Think the more I do try and dominate him , the more he does get aggressive. I will carry on with the sitting before food and little things like not jumping at the back door but will not push my dominance till he is more relaxed and so am I. Deep down I do feel my doggy will accept me as his owner, just perhaps a little more patience and time is needed to get the results. I am a believer that dogs are for life so I am not ready to give up yet, the bruises and bite marks are getting less week by week so I know things are slower getting better. Thanks again to you all.

[Lara's mom]

I have a wonderful shorty JRT - female. I loved her so much I decided to get another - a male. He was a beautiful little boy and I loved him with all of my heart. He was a perfect pup until he got to be about 5 months old. At that point, he started to become very agressive towards all other dogs with the exception of his sister Lara (also a shorty JRT). I also have an elderly Border Collie X. When he was six months old, he attacked her and caused $300 worth of damage to her face.
At that point, I knew I had to find him another home. Bailey will be 14 years old this month and I just couldn't let something like that happen again. I was very lucky that some friends of mine who live in my building adopted Lance so, I still get to see him. He has a wonderful home with people who love him endlessly.
I guess my point is, if you have another dog who was there first, that dog has to come first. I will never forget the day that Greg came to take Lance. I had all of his stuff packed up and I made myself not be crazy when I had to hand him over to his new family. I kissed him goodbye and told him how much I loved him and that I'd see him soon. When Greg walked away with my littlre boy, I thought I'd die. I cried buckets for weeks. For the whole summer, I avoided running into them so he could bond with his new family. Now, everything is good. When Bailey is with her other family, Lance comes here almost every day for "playdates" with Lara. I'll always miss having him but, I can see how happy he is with his new family.

[Deafdogsrule]

What you have is a boisterous 6 month old lab puppy who has not been given any clear boundaries and leadership. I do not believe in the dominance theory, I do not believe in Cesar's methods, under no circumstances should a dog be alpha rolled, aggression should never be dealt with by aggression, it just escalates.

I have dealt with aggressive dogs, infact, I have 2. One is fear aggressive, and one was seriously spoiled, never given any rules to follow, and never trained... 6 weeks after I adopted the 6.5 year old dog, he's a normal, well-adjusted dog. I used clicker training, and patience. I never set him up to fail, and therefor, he never got a chance to practice bad behaviour.

If he were my dog here's what I'd do:

I would use clicker training techniques. I would feed his meals not in a bowl, but by hand. I'd keep his food in my pockets, and a clicker attached to my wrist. keep a leash on him at all times. in the beginning I'd tie him to a doorknob so I can be just out of reach. I'll walk up to him, click/treat for being near, but being calm... I'd click any behaviour that's not excited... eg: sit, down, calmly standing watching. If the pup is bouncing, whining, lunging... I would walk away, then try again in a minute... I'd do this several times a day.

After he's got the calm thing down, I'd let him loose, but dragging the leash I would click/treat any calm behaviour I saw throughout the day, and if he mouths you go back to being tied to a doorknob. I don't use my voice, or any adversives. Once he's learning to be calm, I'd start training sits, downs and other calm moves, using clicker training.

When walking him, I would walk him on a head collar and a harness with a double lead. I would use the halter to control his mouth, and the harness to control his body, so I could keep his mouth away from my hands. I would click/treat any nice walking, and keep the lead attached to the halter in such a way that he cant go after the hand. be fast with the clicks, in a 15 min walk I would probably go through a cup of food.

In never letting him practice the mouthing, the behaviour will disappear, as he will learn that attention and rewards happen when calm, and he will forget about mouthing. By practicing bad behaviour, all he learns is that bad behaviour gets him attention... it may not be good attention, but it is attention.

If you're interested in working with your pup in a non adversive way, go to Karen Pryor Clickertraining, and/or read "Reaching the Animal Mind" by Karen Pryor, and "Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog" by Emma Parsons. These are very good books.

[lange]

Originally Posted by Deafdogsrule

If you're interested in working with your pup in a non adversive way, go to Karen Pryor Clickertraining, and/or read "Reaching the Animal Mind" by Karen Pryor, and "Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog" by Emma Parsons. These are very good books.

I've read a lot of good things on clicker training. I might try it out down the line out of curiosity. How do you use it when you have multiple dogs? How does either of the dogs know the click is directed towards a specific dog only?

I'm also curious how clicker training pans out with breeds that aren't always wanting to please, like an Akita (of course!) or another determined, independent breed. Has anyone had experience with this?

edit: I think I'll move my question to another board not to over run Tiggers. (training section)

[Tigger11]

Thanks again for all your advice, I have a clicker so will give it a go on walkys when I feel confident to do so. I have atlast seen some improvement in Tigger. Think I have read too much about"dominant dogs" and tried too hard to show him im his leader. Everything I have tried has only made him worse. I am now just walking away when he bites, I say nothing and dont look at him. He has had a good couple of days. I have let him have more freedom in the house when kids not around and he has calmed down loads. I stopped completely caging him when Im at work too. I feel the trust between us is getting better through him having more freedom and interaction. I suppose when you think I have caged him from an early age and used a training collar round his nose for months, he might think im not a very nice owner. I feel I have gained some trust back with Tigger and our relationship is getting stronger. My lead training has gone to pots but tigger is now showing he is enjoying a walk . Its been a long struggle but hopefully something positive is happening. I will continue with positive reinforcement and take the advice of a pocketful of food when I decide to take the muzzle off for our walks. Many thanks to you all and i will let you know how we get on. xx