[MarieSkye]

Hello all,
I spontaneously rescued a pit bull in July that was going to be put into a shelter if I didn't take her in. She was only a few months old when I got her and now she is almost 11 months. I did my research on owning a pit bull, and my sister has two so I knew what I was getting myself into. I started training early, and socialized her as much as possible. She's all around the perfect, friendly, and obedient dog... EXCEPT when we are on walks. She loves every person and dog she meets, but if we are on a walk and she sees someone walking toasted us from far away, she FREAKS. she starts barking and growling and won't listen to me. But it's so strange because whenever I take her on walks in the city, she is totally fine. When there's a bunch of people around she's perfect on walks and just ignores everyone walking by. But say were walking down our street and someone is coming at us, with or without a dog, she start freaking out. Then when I walk up to the person and apologize for her barking, she starts wagging her tail and loves the person! She's also totally fine when we go through drive throughs in the car, or if people approach my car... So it's not like she doesn't like strangers, I think on walks she is just overly protective maybe?

She's very smart and obedient 99% of the time, but I fear if I don't correct this behavior right away, it'll turn into something worse. I've been working on bringing treats on the walk and distracting her whenever someone walks by, and if she doesn't bark then I reward her, which usually works, but I worry that the neighbors are going to start thinking she's dangerous... But in reality she is very submissive. She loves other dogs and whenever play gets to rough she always rolls over on her back. And sadly she was attacked twice by one of her best dog friends when play got a little rough, an she didn't even growl back or anything she just put her head down and took it. So I have a feeling the whole barking is more of a protection thing?

Does anyone have a similar experience? I do plan on getting professional training, but I have been struggling to pay off all of her vet bills, and money is a little tight. I've trained her pretty well, this seems to be our only issue, except sometimes shell jump up on people when they walk in the house, out of excitement, but she's almost kicked that habit. She is such a great dog and everyone loves her, all I wish is that I could take her on a walk thru my neighborhood or take her to dog parks without having people be afraid of her.

Help please,
Mimi

[lange]

Hi. It sounds like you have a good dog. She doesn't sound aggressive, she may just be unsure of how to react towards these situations. I have two suggestions. One is to clicker train her. Sometimes rewarding a dog with a treat doesn't get the exact message across of what exactly we're rewarding. Your dog sounds like she wants to please you and she may just not understand what it is she 's supposed to do. If that's the csae, clicker training will cement the response you're looking for.

Otherwise, have you tried walking away when she barks? She may actually want to meet these strangers so if you turn around each time she becomes reactive like that, you'll show her her reaction means you will go elsewhere. The hard part may be getting enough opportunities to practice on if you don't have many people walking down these quieter streets.

Last thing I thought of is to make sure she's not picking up on your own nerves when walking. You might be more focused on these individuals because there's less going on around you then in the city. She may be picking up on your focus or unease at this more direct approach?..Just an idea to think about..

Hope it helps. And keep up the great work, it sounds like you're doing great with your dog.

[MarieSkye]

Originally Posted by lange

Hi. It sounds like you have a good dog. She doesn't sound aggressive, she may just be unsure of how to react towards these situations. I have two suggestions. One is to clicker train her. Sometimes rewarding a dog with a treat doesn't get the exact message across of what exactly we're rewarding. Your dog sounds like she wants to please you and she may just not understand what it is she 's supposed to do. If that's the csae, clicker training will cement the response you're looking for.

Otherwise, have you tried walking away when she barks? She may actually want to meet these strangers so if you turn around each time she becomes reactive like that, you'll show her her reaction means you will go elsewhere. The hard part may be getting enough opportunities to practice on if you don't have many people walking down these quieter streets.

Last thing I thought of is to make sure she's not picking up on your own nerves when walking. You might be more focused on these individuals because there's less going on around you then in the city. She may be picking up on your focus or unease at this more direct approach?..Just an idea to think about..

Hope it helps. And keep up the great work, it sounds like you're doing great with your dog.

Thanks so much! It's good to know that there are others out there who don't think shes doomed to be aggressive her whole life. Thats usually the response I get. But I have the same view as you, I feel like she is a good dog and she means well, she is just trying to protect me on walks because she thinks thats what I want her to do. And as her mom, I know she would never bite another person, just because I know how she reacts to all different types of situations, but I still dont want to risk people becoming uncomfortable.

I have tried turning around and that usually works, but sometimes if there is a lot of commotion (bikes, multiple people etc) she will even turn around while were walking in front of the people and like "rruf rrrruf" as we walk away. But at that point it is much easier to grab her attention and she gets over it in a second. And the clicker training is a good idea, I'm definitely gonna try it. And about the whole energy thing, I know what you mean. I am very good at first, I go into the walk very optimistic, and we'll walk by a few people and she'll be fine, but then something will set her off and she'll go nuts at the next person and thats when I get all nervous and embarrassed. It's very difficult because in order for her to pay attention to me I usually have to raise my voice a little in a very firm tone so that she can hear me over her barking and growling, but at the same time I don't want people to think I am like screaming at my dog like an abusive crazy lady haha, even though thats the only thing that works. It's just hard because she is a pit bull, and most people are already scared of her just cuz of the way she looks. So I want to train her but I'm also scared to take her on walks cuz I dont want the neighbors thinking shes vicious :/ I want to keep exposing her to these situations but I don't want her reputation to get any worse in the neighborhood (seeing as we live is a small suburban town).

But once again thank you so much for your advice, I'll definitely try the clicker training idea

[threenorns]

i hate to disappoint you but your dog doesn't sound aggressive at all.

barking and growling are not "aggression". they're just barking and growling.

clearly she is not interested in attacking anyone (what aggression is) - she's just giving fair notice that she's not going to put up with any nonsense if you're thinking of causing problems for my mommy.

walking away from something that's making her nervous - excuse me for respectfully disagreeing - is sending the wrong signal: you are confirming her worries. treating her is also the wrong approach: you are rewarding her for being anxious.

i found this worked in the same situation: the moment she starts to puff up (you'll know what i mean when you see it - that split second before she actually starts barking) give a sharp correction (either verbally or by a twitch on the leash - doesn't need to be a hard yank or a "pop", sounds like in your case), then step to the side and put her in a sit-stay but on the off-side to the dog; that is, the person will pass you, not the dog. if you can, even put her off the curb and down onto the road into her sit-stay - lowering her position. it sends a message to her. remain there until the person has passed and then continue.

never let ppl or other dogs pass on her side - if she is walking to your left, walk on the left side of the sidewalk so she is on the edge and you are in the middle. if you walk her on the right, walk on the right-hand side so again, she is on the lawn and you are in the middle. this prevents personal territorial boundary conflict.

[lange]

Originally Posted by MarieSkye

Thanks so much! It's good to know that there are others out there who don't think shes doomed to be aggressive her whole life. Thats usually the response I get. But I have the same view as you, I feel like she is a good dog and she means well, she is just trying to protect me on walks because she thinks thats what I want her to do. And as her mom, I know she would never bite another person, just because I know how she reacts to all different types of situations, but I still dont want to risk people becoming uncomfortable.

I have tried turning around and that usually works, but sometimes if there is a lot of commotion (bikes, multiple people etc) she will even turn around while were walking in front of the people and like "rruf rrrruf" as we walk away. But at that point it is much easier to grab her attention and she gets over it in a second. And the clicker training is a good idea, I'm definitely gonna try it. And about the whole energy thing, I know what you mean. I am very good at first, I go into the walk very optimistic, and we'll walk by a few people and she'll be fine, but then something will set her off and she'll go nuts at the next person and thats when I get all nervous and embarrassed. It's very difficult because in order for her to pay attention to me I usually have to raise my voice a little in a very firm tone so that she can hear me over her barking and growling, but at the same time I don't want people to think I am like screaming at my dog like an abusive crazy lady haha, even though thats the only thing that works. It's just hard because she is a pit bull, and most people are already scared of her just cuz of the way she looks. So I want to train her but I'm also scared to take her on walks cuz I dont want the neighbors thinking shes vicious :/ I want to keep exposing her to these situations but I don't want her reputation to get any worse in the neighborhood (seeing as we live is a small suburban town).

But once again thank you so much for your advice, I'll definitely try the clicker training idea

Good! I think that will give you the best results. I've yet to do clicker training myself but it is on my to do list. I actually have a couple dvd's that I'm going to be going through in the next couple weeks. Wishing us both luck!!

Originally Posted by threenorns

walking away from something that's making her nervous - excuse me for respectfully disagreeing - is sending the wrong signal: you are confirming her worries. treating her is also the wrong approach: you are rewarding her for being anxious.

I don't think you're understanding either of the suggestions. I suggested walking away if her dogs is actually anticipating the greeting. Some dogs do this and bark and drag to get over there. On the flip side, I've also seen it used for unruly dogs who are simply reacting to the stimulus of the coming people or things. If you ever watch It's Me Or The Dog, Victoria has done it herself with success.

As for clicker training, you have it wrong. The clicker/reward is meant for the exact moment the dog responds in the proper way not when it's anxious or acting out. It's a split second timing and timing is the key. Clicker training starts at home (or simpler setting) just to get the dog used to the sound of the clicker and the action/treat that follows. It's not supposed to be used as a distraction or to reward unwanted behavior/emotions like you're saying. Like I said, I'm no way an expert but I have read up on it and I've never understood it to be anything but a positive reinforcer of positive behavior.

[threenorns]

i did clicker training - in a week, all the progress i'd made over 3mo was wiped away and he was worse than ever.

the problem is the split-second timing required. click at the wrong time and there's no way to say "no, no, not that - that's not what i meant!"

my dog's reactions are superfast and mine are not - in the time it took me to trigger the clicker, he'd gone on to something else.

result: one seriously confused dog and a seriously frustrated owner.

modelling the behaviour i needed from him worked a lot better in situations where you absolutely cannot afford to have any confusion.

[lange]

Originally Posted by threenorns

i did clicker training - in a week, all the progress i'd made over 3mo was wiped away and he was worse than ever.

the problem is the split-second timing required. click at the wrong time and there's no way to say "no, no, not that - that's not what i meant!"

my dog's reactions are superfast and mine are not - in the time it took me to trigger the clicker, he'd gone on to something else.

result: one seriously confused dog and a seriously frustrated owner.

modelling the behaviour i needed from him worked a lot better in situations where you absolutely cannot afford to have any confusion.

You just touched on my personal reason for going so slow in jumping into clicker training. I've been researching it slowly so I can understand it completely before I start practicing it. My fear is messing my dogs up. at the same time, I'll admit I'm ANAL when it comes to doing things I'm not 100% familiar with. I'm all about the research and slow to jump in until I'm 100% sure I know what it is. But I don'tt want to get off topic..

I have heard and read an abundance of positive reviews on clicker training. yours has been the first bad experience I heard. Maybe it just doesn't fit you well but there's no reason to throw it out from one bad experience... At least for the possibilities of others benefiting from it.

I also think you should be able to work with multiple tools. I don't plan on only using clicker training unless I am absolutely blown away by it. We'll see!!

[Lunareclipse]

Originally Posted by lange

You just touched on my personal reason for going so slow in jumping into clicker training. I've been researching it slowly so I can understand it completely before I start practicing it. My fear is messing my dogs up. at the same time, I'll admit I'm ANAL when it comes to doing things I'm not 100% familiar with. I'm all about the research and slow to jump in until I'm 100% sure I know what it is. But I don'tt want to get off topic..

I have heard and read an abundance of positive reviews on clicker training. yours has been the first bad experience I heard. Maybe it just doesn't fit you well but there's no reason to throw it out from one bad experience... At least for the possibilities of others benefiting from it.

I also think you should be able to work with multiple tools. I don't plan on only using clicker training unless I am absolutely blown away by it. We'll see!!

I had a bad experience while clicker training. Buster ate the clicker.

[threenorns]

the big thing you can do before you start working with your dogs is the timing exercise: you need a friend to help you. they drop a ball and you have to click the *precise* instant the ball hits the floor - you can't tell if you did it right but your friend can mark it.

get that right and you'll manage better than i.

another reason it failed is because once dandy figured out the clicker signalled a treat, he hyperfocussed on the clicker - he would sit and STARE at the drawer and if i took it out, he would go after my hand trying to get the clicker. that's why i want to get this model i found in hong kong: it has an exterior button trigger so i can hide it under my foot or in my armpit or, something i was thinking about, in my mouth to practice the "look at me" thing. if he sees my hands are empty and this clicker noise is apparently coming out of thin air, maybe he'll think it's the clicker gods raining treats.

i can hope.

also, he's much better controlled now so i can use clicker training for its intended purpose - shaping behaviour - and not for corrective purposes.

[lange]

Originally Posted by Lunareclipse

I had a bad experience while clicker training. Buster ate the clicker.

Maybe he wanted to have a go at it and teach the 2 legged people how to do his bidding's. In that scenario I bet it is working perfectly.

[Lunareclipse]

Originally Posted by lange

Maybe he wanted to have a go at it and teach the 2 legged people how to do his bidding's. In that scenario I bet it is working perfectly.

Nope, we still use him for a rug and a footstool and a doorstop.

[lange]

Originally Posted by threenorns

the big thing you can do before you start working with your dogs is the timing exercise: you need a friend to help you. they drop a ball and you have to click the *precise* instant the ball hits the floor - you can't tell if you did it right but your friend can mark it.

get that right and you'll manage better than i.

another reason it failed is because once dandy figured out the clicker signalled a treat, he hyperfocussed on the clicker - he would sit and STARE at the drawer and if i took it out, he would go after my hand trying to get the clicker. that's why i want to get this model i found in hong kong: it has an exterior button trigger so i can hide it under my f oot or in my armpit or, something i was thinking about, in my mouth to practice the "look at me" thing. if he sees my hands are empty and this clicker noise is apparently coming out of thin air, maybe he'll think it's the clicker gods raining treats.

i can hope.

also, he's much better controlled now so i can use clicker training for its intended purpose - shaping behaviour - and not for corrective purposes.

I was actually wondering if they might have a clicker you can hold in your mouth. LOL It sounds crazy but then I'd have my hands free for when I need them. LOL A little wacky sounding I thought but no more than holding a cigarette right? Ex smoker here so not so weird to me!

But yes, I read about that too... practicing the timing. I was going to use the table to drop the ball myself and if need be video tape myself.

Originally Posted by Lunareclipse

Nope, we still use him for a rug and a footstool and a doorstop.

Maybe it's part of his secret plan. Kuma enjoys being a door-guard for drafts. I can thank her for her it but I know she''s doing it out of her own selfish reasons.

[MarieSkye]

Originally Posted by threenorns

i hate to disappoint you but your dog doesn't sound aggressive at all.

barking and growling are not "aggression". they're just barking and growling.

clearly she is not interested in attacking anyone (what aggression is) - she's just giving fair notice that she's not going to put up with any nonsense if you're thinking of causing problems for my mommy.

walking away from something that's making her nervous - excuse me for respectfully disagreeing - is sending the wrong signal: you are confirming her worries. treating her is also the wrong approach: you are rewarding her for being anxious.

i found this worked in the same situation: the moment she starts to puff up (you'll know what i mean when you see it - that split second before she actually starts barking) give a sharp correction (either verbally or by a twitch on the leash - doesn't need to be a hard yank or a "pop", sounds like in your case), then step to the side and put her in a sit-stay but on the off-side to the dog; that is, the person will pass you, not the dog. if you can, even put her off the curb and down onto the road into her sit-stay - lowering her position. it sends a message to her. remain there until the person has passed and then continue.

never let ppl or other dogs pass on her side - if she is walking to your left, walk on the left side of the sidewalk so she is on the edge and you are in the middle. if you walk her on the right, walk on the right-hand side so again, she is on the lawn and you are in the middle. this prevents personal territorial boundary conflict.

Haha, why would that be disappointing? I don't want my dog to be aggressive. And I don't reward her for being anxious at all. I know better than that. What I do for training, which seems to be working, is I'll sit on a curb or the edge of a park, and as people walk by, if she doesn't start barking and just ignores the person, then I reward her. Sometimes I'll use the treats to distract her, but I don't give it to her unless she doesn't bark in the first place.

And about the whole walking away thing, I know what you're talking about, but when you are about to walk by a lady and you have a 55 lb pit bull at the end of your leash lunging and barking, I have to either pull her to the side and try and distract her as best I can, or turn around and walk away. And there are a lot of trainers that do suggest the walking away method. It tell the dog, "hey, I know you want to get to those people, but until you calm down, I'm not gonna let you get what you want". That's what I have read at least.