[threenorns]

i'm listening to thrivingcanine radio and it's an interview with Temple Grandin, reknowned animal behaviour scientist and they're discussing animal training.

the interviewer keeps talking about "positive training" as being all touchy-feely, no corrections, basically the hippy-yippy clicky-clicky never-correct-your-dog type and "negative" training as being essentially punishment based.

that is driving me nuts, how ppl are being fundamentally wrong on what those terms means and yet they call themselves "professional" dog trainers!

just because a training method is "positive" doesn't mean there is no punishment and just because a training method is "negative" doesn't mean there's no reward.

"positive" training methods mean you ADD something to the situation - the "plus" sign = "positive". the dog does something that causes a reaction.

"negative" training methods means you REMOVE something from the situation - the "minus" sign = "negative". the dog does something that stops an occurrence.

example of a positive positive training situation: dog steps on a pedal, a door opens to reveal a treat. the treat is added to the situation. (a happy thing)

example of a negative positive training situation: dog steps on a pedal and the floor starts vibrating in an unpleasant manner. the unpleasant sensation is added to the situation. (a nasty thing)

example of a positive negative training situation: dog steps on a pedal and the irritating buzzing in the floor stops. the sensation is removed from the situation. (a happy thing)

example of a negative negative training situation: dog steps on a pedal and the door closes removing the treat. (a nasty thing)


temple grandin says YES, dogs sometimes need correction and sometimes it has to be pretty harsh - but only if the situation warrants it.

if you're training a dog to do tricks, punishment is completely out of line (agreed). a verbal correction might not be - if i'm teaching dandy to weave through my legs and he, i dunno, decides he wants to hump my leg or something, yes, you bet i'm going to be telling him "no!" or "ah-ah!" or whatever! i'm not going to sit there calmly ignoring him until he decides he's bored. but i wouldn't punish him for it - that totally defeats the point of having fun with my dog.

but let's say we're dealing with, to use the example she provided, a sheep killer. no amount of ignoring and clicks and treats is going to get that dog to stop killing sheep - happy training methods cannot overcome prey drive that strong.

she said such cases would benefit from the use of a shock collar: "you only use it the once and you never, ever let the dog know that it was the collar. put it on the dog and let him wear it a week or two. then you wait until he does it again and just as he gets to the sheep, the sheep gods get him - he'll never go near a sheep again."

i have absolutely no argument with that.

but using a shock collar for something as mundane as barking or lunging on the leash or getting into the garbage? that's retarded.

[lange]

What exactly is the question?

As for discussing all the varied training methods, I personally think a balanced and common sense approach is the best way to go about things. I also think the individual dogs temperament and any issues they have should always be taken into account as well.

[threenorns]

yeah - not really a question so much as a vent.


i get so annoyed with all these experts saying "it's my way or the highway", thinking all dogs are the same when they're totally not.

you cannot train a newf the same way you train a border collie and a submissive dog with a delicate ego is going to need different handling than a boisterous dog with an ego that tops the CN Tower.

if ppl would just get that through their heads then the internet would be far less cluttered with cesar-bashing, stillwell-bashing, clicker-bashing, etc and we can all just get on with teaching our dogs.

[lange]

It's funny, I feel similarly but I do think we're in the minority. The hard part for me is how black and white things are portrayed to be. Training techniques are a tool and better to have an arsenal then only one size to fit all.

BUT I also see why people are so anti Cesar and such. It can come across bad/ And people who just see what he does without doing their homework can get themselves and their dogs into a mess of a situation. It's a lot like dangerous breeds, they can be wonderful or they can be horrible...It just depends on the knowledge and common sense that the owners have. They shouldn't be banned but they sure as hell aren't for everyone. Ditto the Cesar Millan stuff. Should everyone do what Cesar does? No way. And he seriously does have to give the tapping he does a break. there has to be a better way to snap them out of whatever they are focusing on....But what that is I'd love to hear....

OK now I'm just venting!..

[Lunareclipse]

If you only knew how many times I have chased Porter through the house because he wants to be an I LOVE DOGS!I LOVE DOGS!I LOVE DOGS!I LOVE DOGS!I LOVE DOGS!I LOVE DOGS!I LOVE DOGS!...

[threenorns]

i like venting - letting steam out my ears relieves pressure between them.

yeah - i started watching dog whisperer but i was smart enough to follow the advice to seek out a local trainer.

in my area, there is one that is actually decent but she mainly does agility with small dogs. there is another that bragged about how her dog is so "well" trained that if you drop the leash, "she just sits there and shakes until you pick it up again". this is the same individual who advised me to stand on dandy's back feet to stop his jumping up on me.

i don't care how bad he was, i wasn't THAT desperate.

so instead i bought his book "be the pack leader" and read every article on his website and went to the other experts he recommended (he thinks very highly of ian dunbar, f.ex) and read them up, too.

naturally i ended up seriously confused.

so i figured since they're ALL highly successful, they can't aLL be wrong - so i picked one system and went with it.

i know it's in him - for about four days, i had THE Perfect Dog. he was so immaculately behaved he could've stood in for Daddy on the show.

except for, you know, dandy being a big black hairy border collie and all.

i hated it - hated every moment. i'd lost my dog and picked up a robot. took me four days to get the bounce back.

that was after a traumatic event involving someone abusing their dog in front of us and me tearing him a new one.

so we're muddling along now and as long as he dials it back when i tell him to, i don't mind him doing pretty much whatever, whenever.

LOL @Lunareclipse

[lange]

You're right. No one wants a robot dog. I think it's balance again, similarly to service dogs. you want them at attention or training mode sometimes, then you want to release them to be free most of the day as long as they behave and don't get unruly. That's when it's not about training so much as it's about groundwork, which I see as two separate things. Groundwork is simple rules and mannerism that are just part of co-existing in life. Training would be commands, tricks, attention/working mode, ect.

So I;m not exactly following, which aspect for you and Dandy you feel was at fault for the robot like behavior? Sorry, I didn't quite follow if you mean Cesar or Ian. BTW I also like Ian. One of my personal favorites is Patricia McConnel but Im always open to reading from other authors too.

[threenorns]

oh - no - what happened was i was out walking with my 4yr old and my dog and we came up to this guy (lives here in town) sitting down with his honking big akita mix female, who didn't want to sit down. he kept yelling at her to sit, then he would yell at her for ignoring him when she kept her face averted. i said "that's appeasement behaviour - she's trying to avoid a conflict".

he said "oh, you want to avoid a conflict, eh? i'll show you how to avoid a conflict" and he ran the leash under the arch of his shoe and hauled up on it full-strength, slamming her head and jaw into the sidewalk. she bellied out - flattened out like a rug and i gasped in horror, dandy went completely rigid with his hackles and mane full up, and saari hid her face against me. he released and the dog stood up again so this time he seized her cheek and ear in one hand and squeezed so hard she shriek - it was horrible, the way the sound echoed down the street. he kept squeezing until she collapsed on the ground but by this time, i'd starting yelling at him and saari started crying.

i think it was saari crying that did it because dandy lunged forward, barking, and i said "NO! SIT! NOW!" and he practically backpedalled in mid-air, looked at me so hurt, then turned and sat with his back to me while i tore the owner a new one and then beat him over the head with it.

i didn't register the look on dandy's face until after and even now i don't know if i actually saw it or if it's my guilt painting it there but he was sooooo careful around me.

ppl who didn't know him remarked on how marvellously he was trained, ppl who knew him suggested i get him to the vet pdq which i did on the 3rd day. the vet found nothing wrong and when i told her what happened, she said he probably just needed processing time and to keep acting normal and he'd find himself again - which he did, thank heavens.

btw: the reason the akita didn't want to sit? she had pyometritis. ended up a week later undergoing emergency surgery and he nearly lost her - cost him $1800 to save her life.

i enjoyed rubbing that in.

[lange]

OMG What a complete and utter -ss wipe!! He doesn't deserve any pet. And no pet deserves his dumb -ss either. It's times like that you'd wish the dog would bite but even then the dog would be the one paying for it yet again. I'm sorry you all had to see that too. I'm glad Dandy is over the shock of the whole madness. I tell you, some people shouldn't own dogs. Poor thing..

[threenorns]

i know - he told me after that the reason he was so harsh was because his back was killing him (he has 3 ruptured disks) but i told him that's no excuse -she was hurting too and she didn't bite his stupid leg off, which i would've done.

he said i damn near did - he did apologize, so at least here's that.

[Deafdogsrule]

I admit to being a positive clicky-clicky trainer who hates Cesar... That being said, I would use a shock collar to save my dog's life (like snake proofing or car chasing stopping) But in every day training, and rehabbing aggression, I would never in a million years use corrections.

though I have thought about cat-proofing Oliver using a shock collar... unfortunately, he's extremely fear aggressive, so if something scares him, he attacks it... so proofing him with a shock collar will likely make the aggression worse, not better... infact proofing him with a shock collar for anything will make him attack whatever it is I would be trying to teach him not to, period.

It's all about knowing your dog, knowing different methods to try, and doing your best to know and research the problem to make sure you dont make it worse.

The reason I always recommend positive approaches first (+R and -P) is you cant make fear with positive training... you certainly can make fear with punishment.

OH and you all may be jealous.... I am going to a 3 day seminar held by Dr. Ian Dunbar, in Calgary in April!!!!!!!!:mrgreen:

He's going to be awesome! I am so seriously excited!!!

[threenorns]

brace yourself: he likes cesar, LOL (or at least he cautiously admires him)


yeah - shock collar = very bad idea with the cat thing. i know exactly what you mean: i had a hybrid (and i don't mean a designer dog - i mean a wolf-dog cross) who had been trained to run down and eat cats. took me months to get that out of him but i did it - involved a lot of making him sit-stay while i demonstrated extreme possessiveness, affection, and approval over every moggie i could get my hands on and stuffing him up with gravlax (smoked fish) every time he didn't go after a cat. i got him to the point he would grudgingly tolerate a litter of kittens playing all over him until he got fed up, stood up, and shook them off sending little kittie-balls bowling all over the place. funny as hell!

[Deafdogsrule]

Originally Posted by threenorns

brace yourself: he likes cesar, LOL (or at least he cautiously admires him)


yeah - shock collar = very bad idea with the cat thing. i know exactly what you mean: i had a hybrid (and i don't mean a designer dog - i mean a wolf-dog cross) who had been trained to run down and eat cats. took me months to get that out of him but i did it - involved a lot of making him sit-stay while i demonstrated extreme possessiveness, affection, and approval over every moggie i could get my hands on and stuffing him up with gravlax (smoked fish) every time he didn't go after a cat. i got him to the point he would grudgingly tolerate a litter of kittens playing all over him until he got fed up, stood up, and shook them off sending little kittie-balls bowling all over the place. funny as hell!

Awe, I hope one day I can get Ollie to that point. We had a breakthrough a couple of weeks ago at my friend's house. She has 3 cats, and Oliver does not go inside her house without a leash. But that day, we were letting in dogs, and out others, Ollie was already outside, I was at the top of the stairs, when he got by her. there was a cat on the stairs halfway up. I thought "OH NO" but barely got the thought through when he paused, snuffed the cat's face, then ran the rest of the way up! Now, he was really excited to see me (he always is) and at that point it was more rewarding to come to me than kill the cat, but still, we are making headway!

I do the same as you, btw, constant cuddling cats in his line of vision, treats for not going for them, etc.

OH and to make you all even more jealous... I went to a Temple Grandin seminar last month... I even got an autographed book!!!

[threenorns]

uuuuuuuuh.... where did you say you live *shifty eyes*?

[Deafdogsrule]

Originally Posted by threenorns

uuuuuuuuh.... where did you say you live *shifty eyes*?

LOL Hmmn, is my book going to disappear now?

The seminar was geared towards cattle, as it was at a major ag collage, however the info was amazing! and I so got to meet her!!! I've admired her for ages, and even though the cattle industry is of little interest (considering I am a dog trainer LOL) I live in a place that's all about the cattle (Alberta Beef!) and grew up going to my grandparents cattle farm every summer and holiday, I do have some residual interest LOL

She is very entertaining, and an absolutely AMAZING woman!!!

[threenorns]

certainly gives autism a whole new image, doesn't she?

[lange]

Lucky girl, Sara!! Turid ruggas would be another awesome seminar to attend if u could.

[Deafdogsrule]

Originally Posted by lange

Lucky girl, Sara!! Turid ruggas would be another awesome seminar to attend if u could.

Yup, Her, Emily Larkam (kikopup), and Karen Pryor are def. on my to do list!!! Unfortunately, they dont come up here that often

[threenorns]

far as i know, the only one who's come to ontario is cesar millan - and that was WICKED awesome!

i'm not kidding - mom and i had sore faces and stomachs for three days.

[chiclet]

I didn't go, the cost was way out of my price range.