[Piti Longstalking]

Originally Posted by vetgroomer

Piti, I did not say "Snap that leash." I said "Snap that leash ON." As in attach it to the dog's collar, which usually involves a snap, does it not?

I've already apologized for this misunderstanding.

No, the simple act of attaching the leash doesn't teach the dog much.

I disagree, especially for those who need a leash to teach their dog any of the behaviors you mentioned. Dogs are masterful discriminators, so attaching a leash to train the dog teaches him that he only needs to perform the cue when the leash is on. What about when the leash is off? You've never seen a dog who will perform all cues with the leash on but "blow his owner off" when not on? This is a problem directly related to owners being dependent on the leash to enforce cues. From the dog's point of view, when the leash is "snapped on", physical punishment follows; most of the time inadvertently without the owner's awareness.

In response to your comment about how I would quantify a dog's sense of pain. This I know for a fact. If you study anatomy and physiology, dogs do not have the same number of pain receptors and nerve endings in their skin that a human does.

Dogs are not humans. Humans are not dogs. It doesn't matter how many receptors a dog has compared to a human. All that tells us is that the pathway to the chemical reaction in the brain is possible, but the number of receptors does not tell us what the dog feels from the chemical reaction going on in his brain. You can only guess, and guessing in terms of your senses does not do the dog justice.

Dogs routinely bite each other during play, and don't get mad or express any pain response unless one dog gets carried away and becomes too rough. If they bite me the same way, it hurts. This would lead me to believe that an open handed pinch which does not hurt ME isn't going to hurt a dog.

This is a ridiculous statement. You're using a throat pinch as a punishment, yet, you say your intention is not to hurt. How effective can your physical punishment be, then, if it is not aversive? I'm not advocating severe aversive physical punishments, in fact I would advocate no physical punishment. Enough dogs have suffered these tortures within the sciences for us to understand that it must be severe, and timely, to be an effective punishment. Your common dog owner, especially the one looking for advise on an internet forum, is not knowledgeable about how severe the punishment must be, and does not have the mechanical skill to deliver the punishment in a timely fashion. So shame on you for recommending this technique to a novice. But if your next statement is to say Skinner is wrong, that will afford me an opportunity to laugh.

You then go on to compare your throat jab to dogs at play. So are you playing with your dog then? I don't understand this comparison, and I think throat jabs are exactly the point where one's brawn defeats their brain. Again, this does not do our dogs justice.

Piti, one can most certainly learn what a dog's body language is, and mimic some, but not all, of that same language. Dogs "read" us better than we usually "read" them. But if we pay attention, and take the opportunity to educate ourselves, we CAN learn to speak a passable dog. Training is a lot easier if you can communicate in the same language, and since dogs can't learn to speak in any language, we have to learn to speak dog.

Another weak comparison. I don't think you know exactly what I'm advocating here. I'm advocating against the use of physical punishment based on outdated, unproven, and frankly wrong logic. Of course we can use calming signals and patterns to help communicate to our dogs. These are not physical punishments, however, and does not serve as justification for being lycanthropic.

There is a big difference between learning through problem solving and a conditioned response. I don't want conditioned responses, which require constant reinforcement if you don't want the dog to "forget".

I have no idea what you're trying to say with this statement or how it relates to the justification of physical punishment. No GOOD dog trainer worth his weight in bones would ever advocate to forget about Pavlov to pay Skinner, and that's exactly how this statement reads; this reads FOOLISH.

I want my dogs to think, solve the problem and thereby achieve true learning.

True learning? Learning is learning no matter how it is learned. To say otherwise is an example of a complete misunderstanding of learning theory and its utility in dog training.

Can admin lock this before it turn into an all out war!

[Piti Longstalking]

Originally Posted by orangedog

Can admin lock this before it turn into an all out war!

What are you talking about. Two people can have a spirited discussion and be civil. War is nothing like that. Nothing said here so far should be offensive to you.

Piti, are you intentionally misquoting me, or are you seeing what you want to see, rather than what was stated? I suspect the former.

I did NOT say to pinch the dog's throat, jab the dog's throat, or in any way do anything to the dog's throat! I said to use an open handed "pinch" to the back of the neck. This is in no way painful or harmful to the dog. It is similar to scruffing, but not a full scruff, where you actually grasp the skin on the back of the neck and restrain the dog. It's a grasp and release, pure and simple, and it does NOT hurt!

I could continue this discussion, but I won't, seeing as time after time you misquote me, and I'm tired of having to correct your statements. From now on you shall be on "ignore."

You remind me of an old saying my Grandmother used to use. Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. While I don't care if you're annoyed, I don't have any more time to waste.

[Piti Longstalking]

Originally Posted by vetgroomer

Piti, are you intentionally misquoting me, or are you seeing what you want to see, rather than what was stated? I suspect the former.

A physical punishment is a physical punishment. None are necessary, and humans who apply them to be dog-like is silly, and humans recommending physical punishments, worse. You can dance around how I word your punishment or what kind of "pinch" it is, but you can not dance around how poor your justification is in using it.

I did NOT say to pinch the dog's throat, jab the dog's throat, or in any way do anything to the dog's throat! I said to use an open handed "pinch" to the back of the neck. This is in no way painful or harmful to the dog. It is similar to scruffing, but not a full scruff, where you actually grasp the skin on the back of the neck and restrain the dog. It's a grasp and release, pure and simple, and it does NOT hurt!

You're playing a game of semantics, this is a weak argument, and it helps no one train their dog. Again, the experts disagree with you; if you read the Bob Bailey article and AVSAB position statement I posted earlier, you would not have a sense to respond.

I could continue this discussion, but I won't, seeing as time after time you misquote me, and I'm tired of having to correct your statements. From now on you shall be on "ignore."

I've long since been removed from elementary school games. This isn't a playground, and my conviction is a reflection of the seriousness by which I deem your recommendation as bad. Feel free to ignore me, but that won't prevent me from speaking for our dog's sake.

You remind me of an old saying my Grandmother used to use. Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. While I don't care if you're annoyed, I don't have any more time to waste.

I don't know, I think pigs have wonderful voices, and if this cat can enjoy it, it must be worth the effort.

YouTube - Pig singing to Hector

YouTube - Pig singing to Hector

My grandfather use to say, "be open-minded, but not so open-minded that your brains drop out." If your recommendation made any practical sense, I would say as much, but the second you start becoming physical with your pup or dog, you're choosing a tactic that does more to destroy relationships than build it. Your advice is outdated, and your logic wrong. End of story.

I thought I would chime in with my 2 cents.... In my years as a trainer I have found that the "old school" methods of training only work on a temporary basis. Pinch collars, choke chains, the "claw" method of pinching dogs, many of Cesar Milan's methods, to mention a few only act as a temp. fix or band-aid. Where Clicker and other positive reinforcement methods are a more solid form of training. Have you ever met a dog who was Clicker smart? I have not, but I have met more dogs than I can count who have become collar and/or leash smart and will ONLY listen when on leash or when their training collar is on. This is the type of training I started in, I have since evolved to clicker training and have found a world of difference not only with my own dogs but with clients dogs as well. I have solved everything from jumping on guests to "red zone" dog aggression using only positive training methods and talk to clients who after months/years are still problem free. A close friend who is an avid pinch collar/no treats at all type of trainer very often offers "tune-up" classes for her clients. I do not offer them, because I don't have to... the positive training worked the first time and does not require regular tune-ups to keep the dog listening to it's family.

Originally Posted by orangedog

I thought I would chime in with my 2 cents.... In my years as a trainer I have found that the "old school" methods of training only work on a temporary basis. Pinch collars, choke chains, the "claw" method of pinching dogs, many of Cesar Milan's methods, to mention a few only act as a temp. fix or band-aid. Where Clicker and other positive reinforcement methods are a more solid form of training. Have you ever met a dog who was Clicker smart? I have not, but I have met more dogs than I can count who have become collar and/or leash smart and will ONLY listen when on leash or when their training collar is on. This is the type of training I started in, I have since evolved to clicker training and have found a world of difference not only with my own dogs but with clients dogs as well. I have solved everything from jumping on guests to "red zone" dog aggression using only positive training methods and talk to clients who after months/years are still problem free. A close friend who is an avid pinch collar/no treats at all type of trainer very often offers "tune-up" classes for her clients. I do not offer them, because I don't have to... the positive training worked the first time and does not require regular tune-ups to keep the dog listening to it's family.

While I don't use pinch collars or electric shock collars, I do use choke chains. Most people use them incorrectly. The whole idea of a choke chain isn't to choke the dog. You teach the dog to listen for the sound.

In 40 years I've never run into a dog who couldn't make the transition between reliable on lead to off lead work. I do use lots of positive reinforcement, as well as negative reinforcement and correction. Let me explain.

Positive reinforcement simply means adding a stimulus. The added stimulus can be a treat, a toy, verbal praise, or a click.

A negative reinforcement is removing a stimulus. For example, a dog could learn to press a switch to turn off an annoying sound. The dog performs the desired task and is rewarded by having peace and quiet.

There are also positive corrections; adding a stimulus, such as gently pressing the loin to have the dog sit. This is followed by a positive reinforcement, praise, a treat, or a click. A proper neck "pinch" which does not hurt the dog, is a positive correction. You follow with a positive reinforcement when the dog responds correctly.

And there are negative corrections; two dogs argue over a favorite toy, so you remove the toy. This can also be followed by a positive correction if it's deemed appropriate.

I have also incorporated problem solving into my training, often with better success than simply trying to establish a conditioned response. Dogs who learn a task through problem solving don't forget it. With a conditioned response, one must reinforce that response on a continuing basis, or they eventually forget.

I am very famailiar with this. I had bruises on my arms from my shep mix when she was a pup. In fact, I adopted her 5 months before my wedding. I bought long gloves just to cover the bruises!
If the puppy starts to bite, tell her/him "NO" without yelling...just in voice that she/he knows you mean business. I found sometimes holding her jaw closed (for a sec) helps too. My pit mix pup still bites me feet. It hurts...I just stop walking and tell her "NO". You mentioned giving her a toy in place of one of your body parts, I read that in a dog book. Just don't let the puppy be in control. YOU are the alpha dog.

[Piti Longstalking]

Originally Posted by vetgroomer

Dogs who learn a task through problem solving don't forget it. With a conditioned response, one must reinforce that response on a continuing basis, or they eventually forget.

This is absolutely false. Conditioned responses deal with the dog's emotions, they are reflexes, and they are responses to the antecedent. Dogs do not have the ability to forget reflexes or emotions. There is no such thing as only operant conditioning being best. Classical conditioning occurs all the time, regardless of what kind of training you're attempting to do. Furthermore, reinforcement only occurs in operant conditioning, not classical conditioning. So to say the dog "forgets" using classical conditioning is a misunderstanding of its application, and has more to do with your mechanical skill through operant conditioning.

I am not sure where you live but where I am there are no trainers that use traditional choke chains... they have been deemed outdated and are not used, and area vets also advise against them. They have done autopsy's on dogs trained with choke chains and have found damage to the dogs necks that other collars do not cause.

Originally Posted by orangedog

I am not sure where you live but where I am there are no trainers that use traditional choke chains... they have been deemed outdated and are not used, and area vets also advise against them. They have done autopsy's on dogs trained with choke chains and have found damage to the dogs necks that other collars do not cause.

I've seen this too when the collars are used incorrectly, or if the collar is left on the dog all the time. I've also seen burns from shock collars that were used incorrectly and soft tissue damage caused by pinch collars. Personally I don't think you can use a pinch collar "correctly", because they do cause damage when they're used. And I think it's sad that so many trainers are using pinch collars as the first choice. Especially on tiny dogs and young puppies.

I also think that the trainers who have deemed the traditional choke chain as outdated probably didn't know how to use them properly in the first place. Like I said, the idea is not to choke the dog, it's to teach them to listen for the sound. If someone is jerking the leash hard enough to cause bruising or other injury, they're using it wrong.

[Piti Longstalking]

http://www.apdt.co.uk/pdfs/Choke_Chain_leaflet.pdf

Piti... Thank you for posting that it is GREAT!!!! I need to look into the copyright info on that so that I can print some and use them.