[puppylove2009]

Okay I have two dogs. First of all.....They are perfect when we aren't at home, they are perfect in public, but at home when we take them outside they are awful. Inside they are fine.

We have done everything by the book.

Training and training classes. We put them through training so we wouldn't have this problem.


We work with them every day.....we exercise them. But they are slipping and its things that have been out of our control that cause it.

And I'm scared. Now whenever they see a kid or another dog or just some man or woman in the breezeway they start barking at them like crazy. They are becoming extremely territorial and they can't be we live in an apartment.

I'm overwhelmed and I've done tons of research on how to fix this but the more I try its seems the faster they slip.

I mean I put them in classes to prevent this not for this behavior to become worse.

It all started when we moved to this apartment complex....we used to be upstairs now we are on the first floor.....there are lots of bratty kids who yell and shriek and throw things......they are nervous wrecks and I am too.


I know they need a behaviorist but we don't have the money for that.....our one dog is sick and most of our extra money is going to vet bills..... We just can't afford a behaviorist.


What can I do? I'm running out of ideas.

Its gotten to the point where at home I am isolating them. Only taking them out when no one is around, only walking them when no one is around.


We can take them anywhere and they are perfect but in this complex they are awful and I don't know why?

Moving here was the biggest mistake we could have made because the cost could end up greater than it was worth....(it could cost us them)


What can I do? What info can I find



---------------

They aren't bad dogs but the neighbors are only seeing their bad qualities.

I know its strictly territorial so how do I break that behavior.

(By the way we don't know any of our neighbors we keep to ourselves for the most part)

Can you prevent the dogs from seeing out the window so the kids can't throw things at them? or, do you mean the kids throw things at you when you are out walking the dogs? In that case, I'd call the police as that would be assault.

Without knowing what you have done or seeing how you handle the dogs, it's hard to tell you what else to try. Are you familiar with Cesar Milan's methods? I know not everyone likes him or his methods but I think he has a valid approach to dealing with situations that are getting out of hand.

[puppylove2009]

I'm talking about outside while the dogs are pottying or walking.....the kids in the complex are terrors and are everywhere. Little kids even....like 3 or 4 (parents dont watch there kids) and they kids know where we live and they have been pounding on our windows. I always keep the blinds closed now.

I do not care for Cesar Milan or his methods....but I do watch its me or the dog with Victoria Stillwell.


We've done basically everything the trainer has told us......its just they are so territorial now.

They never were like this until we moved here. We have been here for 6 months.

This is their first 1st floor apartment


Our Jack russell mix has become extremely nervous.....but she calms down when we leave home.

This is not territorial aggression-- it's fear aggression. I know exactly why they are behaving the way they do: The bratty neighbor kids. Duh! The root of solving the dogs' behavior lies directly in solving the children's behavior. I'm guessing the children might even be afraid of the dogs, and since they have not been taught proper coping techniques (they are going to end up where I work, mark my words), this is how they express their fear: false bravado and bullying. It makes them feel braver, tougher.

What to do: I realise from reading your posts that you are a shy, non-confrontational person. You are going to have step out of your comfort zone, even out of character (pretend, if you have to-- that's what I do) for the sake of your dogs. If you had a human child that was being bullied, you wouldn't hesitate to confront the offenders, would you? Okay. So you're outside, walking the dogs. They see someone in the breezeway and start barking. Ignore the person, pretend he/she is not there. Turn your dog around and start moving away, in the opposite direction. Find a quiet spot to pull off the walkway. Put your dogs into a sit, and get them to focus on you. Speak calmly, quietly, soothingly. You could even just babble as though you were talking to a neighbor about the weather. The words don't matter, but the tone do. When the dog has finally stopped looking around for the "offender" and is no longer tense, but has adopted an unconcerned posture, praise him, and move on. Adopting Victoria Stilwell's techniques, you could wear a treat bag on your outings, and start treating your dogs whenever they see people. If they are tense, though, it won't work. So you'll have to use the tactic I just described to help them calm down, then you could treat before moving on.

Now, about the kids: So your dogs are going potty. The kids are shouting and teasing them. You are going to have to stand up for your dogs, because they are not permitted to stand up for themselves. It is not fair to expect them to tolerate this kind of abuse. You are going to have to rebuke the children: "DO NOT HARASS MY DOG! If he somehow managed to break free from me, if I did not have him under control, you could be bitten, and it would be your fault! My dog would have to be put to sleep and killed, and it would be your fault! Do you want my dog to die? Do you? (The kids will shake their heads solemnly, eyes big as saucers) Then stop harassing him. He is actually a very nice dog. You don't need to be afraid. If you want to be his friend, you are going to have to start being nice to him, and calm and quiet when he's around."

Puppylove, that is the script. I suggest you use it-- I have actually used it on adult men, who have harassed my dog because they were afraid of her, believe it or not! And it works! If the children's parents are outside supervising and condoning their children's behavior, then simply change tactics. Ignoring the children, approach the parents as closely as safety will permit, and talk to them directly: "Excuse me, but your children's behavior is only making it harder for me to control my dogs. They really are nice dogs, but they are afraid of your children. Would you please ask your children to stop?"

As for your personal apartment/windows, etc.: When the children start their behavior, step outside with a pen and paper. Confront them (they are just children, afterall, and obviously not the brightest crayons in the box). Say, "Alright. I want your names, your parents' names, your apartment numbers, and your phone numbers. Your behavior is unacceptable, what you are doing is called vandalism, harassment, and trespassing, and it is not only wrong, but it is against the law. Your parents can go to jail because of what you are doing, did you know that? I need to have a talk with your parents." So you get the kids' information, and you go have a talk with the parents. If they refuse to listen or cooperate, then you will be calling the police and the landlord. You do have grounds for a formal complaint. There are laws prohibiting these children's behavior. I suggest you stand up for your rights, and the rights of your dogs. Grow a spine, and do it. It may be the most difficult thing you've ever done, but it will make you a stronger person, and help you grow. One day your life might depend upon this kind of forcefulness. It's good to know you have it within you to call upon, when you need it the most.

Originally Posted by puppylove2009

I do not care for Cesar Milan or his methods....but I do watch its me or the dog with Victoria Stillwell.


We've done basically everything the trainer has told us......its just they are so territorial now.

That's fine. Victoria Stilwell has good methods. But, I agree with MyDogIsCute, this isn't territorial...it is fear and YOU need to advocate for your dogs. MyDogIsCute's advise on how to handle the situation is excellent....time to step up to the plate for your dogs and stop letting those kids terrorize them and you.

[puppylove2009]

The thing is in apartment living its always best to keep to yourself.....ignore your neighbors......and never be confrontational (atleast that is what we have learned since living in apartments)

The office prefers us to get them involved and not confront the neighbors but the office hasn't done crap.


I mean this wasn't an issue until they lowered the rent. We live in an okay area but there is this place called Madison next to us and alot of the things that go on in Madison are trickling over here. And some of the people are too. Thats just a real bad area. And we now have some pretty rough neighbors.


I mean we hate apartment living......this has been a real culture shock to us. (We were both sheltered a bit growing up, my husband and I) but we just keep to ourselves, that is just how we are.

We are trying to get into a house and ASAP (a rental for now) because I feel like these dogs don't need to be here and moving has hurt them badly. And I feel like we have had to isolate them way too much. And that isn't good for them at all. And my husband is like well we will just keep them away from kids. And I'm like "that will just make the situation worse" I had a shih tzu growing up and he was pretty kid aggressive (the little boy that he lived with before tortured him) and isolating him just made him extremely aggressive.

Around the apartment they go crazy when they see anyone so the only places we really get to walk them now is out on Greenway and some other local trails......where they don't have this behavior at all. Where they let kids and adults...come up to them. I just have to put them in a sit first. No problems. They are very good and very loving. (Unless Sasha sees a bicycle then she starts to bark and then jumps back behind my husband and tries to hide) A neighbor kid while we were walking one day acted like they were going to run her down with a bike and another (same kid) tried it with a skateboard.....she was terrified and my other dog was with me too (Our poodle Zack) Zack went nuts barking at the kid. Kid ended up freaking out and him and the skateboard ended up in the bushes and he yell "Stupid Fluffy Pit Bull" at my poodle. Sasha was terrifed I litterally couldn't get her to get up and I had to pick her up and carry her in. That was the day this all started. This was August or September. And things keep going down hill.

But I will take your advice.


I'm just really scared. I don't want to lose my dogs. And I have a feeling if I do I will Hate children forever. Not to mention myself.





I just wanted to add: Most of our neighbors are gone from 7 am to 9 pm and on days when school is out the kids are left alone. (especially snow days) I've seen where a mom has left home her 11 year old and 3 year old and I've seen the 11 year old take off with the other boys his age and leave the 3 year old alone......I informed mom on that one though.

I did want to say there is this one boy he is like 12 (he likes to sit in the middle of the road on his bike and dart out in front of cars as you are driving up) anyways he doesn't like Sasha. He threw something at her and she barked at him and I got on to him over it. He has been targeting her and us for awhile. It eventually got the point that our door was vandalized. (Homemade sticky stink bomb) we are still waiting for the complex to come out and paint it like they said they would. Anyways we came home to see our door trashed. (Our wreath was ruined too and you know wreaths aren't cheap this was at christmastime)

We called the cops and he found the two boys who did it....can you guess who one of the boys was.

I know one boy only got a warning (and his mom made him come over and clean up the mess....this kid is just caught up with the wrong crowd) the other boy we aren't sure what happened..I know it took the one a long time to rat him out. But I think he might have gone to the police station. (not arrested but one of those this is what happens when you break the law kind of lessons) but he probably thought it was cool.

Anyways I just wanted to give you more background on what has been going on.

The older kids have stopped bothering us and them after that but now we have little kids doing things.

Ofcourse now its more of the running at them and screaming "Doggy" with a really high pitched voice (Sasha doesn't like noise) and I have to stop them before they get over to us or the dogs start barking at them.

Sasha is usually fine to stop barking if the person she is barking at talks to her.


(A bad habit she picked up from Zack as a puppy)

The whole Woof Woof I'm so cute Love me....barking and jumping" But she is 25 pounds and it isn't cute

I've lived in plenty of apartments and apartment living does not require that you forfeit your rights as a citizen and a human being. Children who are vandalizing or assaulting you are breaking the law and should be dealing with the police. I think you are trying to play nice in a situation where people are taking advantage of you and you need to dig deep inside and muster the strength you have inside to assert yourself for your and your dogs' best interests.

I love kids but I have turned into the Mean Monster when they have acted inappropriately toward my dogs.

Oh, and if you know that a 3 year old is home alone--you should be calling the police! That is neglect and should not be ignored. I've worked in an emergency shelter for children removed for abuse/neglect -- please don't turn a blind eye to this or think that telling the mother is sufficient. The police and social services need to be alerted. I have seem police officers near tears holding an infant in their arms and them tell me "I'd rather work a homicide than this" because it is so heartbreaking.

[puppylove2009]

I figure we will be out of here in 3 months tops if I can just controll the behavior until then then we are out of here and that will be good. We are working with the dogs but there is always going to be something here that is going to set them back.

I'd rather not get involved in the neighbors affairs. Like I said in apartment living you keep to yourself and you don't put your nose in other peoples business.

I don't want to get involved with the neighbors and I don't want them involved with me.

(I'm not a people person and I'd rather just mind my own business and they mind their own business. as far as what they do with their children that is not my issue I've got too many things going on to worry about the neighbors problems too) I mean I would have to probably call the police on every parent in this complex and that is a can of worms I'm not willing to open. I just want to get out and be done with this place. The last 7 months or so our lives have been hell here its a nice apartment but the people here suck. and there are only two pet owners that clean up after there dogs atleast in the part of the complex we live and that is us and our neighbor in the building across the way)

I just want them to leave us alone and I just want to train my dogs and I just want to get into that house and far away from this place.


Oh and i don't like kids so that makes matters worse for me.....where they are a nuisance for someone who likes kids they are a lot worse for someone who can't stand them

Don't get me wrong I love the kids in my family....all my little cousins and I do want my own kids but I will say the kids here have really made me reconsider if I really want kids.....on several occasions

Especially after the trouble they have caused. I just want to control the situation until we can get out of here. I want to train my dogs and I want the neighbors and their kids to leave us alone

[puppylove2009]

don't get me wrong we just don't like to be bothered. But we enjoy the time with our friends and their dogs and our family and their dogs. But most of the time we just like to hang out and go for walks just the four of us.

Our dogs get lots of play time with other dogs. (They have all sorts of friends...beagles, Bichons, mutts, labs, the list goes on)

We do lots of playdates with family and friends and their dogs. They have never been around many children though.

The youngest child they have interacted with is 8. One of my young cousins and 9 my youngest sister. (They love kids between the ages of 10 and 14) but anything younger than 8 and they are a nervous wreck.

We don't have any friends with kids.


Like I said this is only a problem we all have here at home.....away from home they are the best behaved dogs in the world.....ofcourse we (pet parents) aren't a nervous wreck away from home either

[puppylove2009]

I think I'm just going to excuse myself from the conversation its getting to be a bit too much for me.

I think I'm going to call the trainer and see if they can go ahead and get us in to some more classes. I think that is the best first step.

This discussion is just getting to be too much and the last few months have just been exhausting and its all just getting to me.....I know I'm just ranting now and I know I sound awful but I'm worn out. I mean I'm even getting ticked off now when kids aren't doing anything to them.

And I know I said I don't like kids well I do I just I'm so frustrated right now.

I think the best bet is to call the trainer

Originally Posted by puppylove2009

I think I'm just going to excuse myself from the conversation its getting to be a bit too much for me.

I think I'm going to call the trainer and see if they can go ahead and get us in to some more classes. I think that is the best first step.

This discussion is just getting to be too much and the last few months have just been exhausting and its all just getting to me.....I know I'm just ranting now and I know I sound awful but I'm worn out. I mean I'm even getting ticked off now when kids aren't doing anything to them.

And I know I said I don't like kids well I do I just I'm so frustrated right now.

I think the best bet is to call the trainer

Sending hugs...you sound exhausted and overwhelmed. I hope the trainer can help you and your dogs cope with the situation until you can move to a better situation.

[puppylove2009]

Okay they said we can start when the next group of classes start. Thats in 3 weeks.....(and hopefully Zack will have made a full recovery by then)

Its going to be expensive but I need help and I think a professional trainer is something we need again. It really helped before.

Thanks for everything....I guess it took all this to get me to see I really needed the help

((((you need a big hug)))) I have to say this, though: It is not fair, or even practical, to expect to "train" your dogs to tolerate the abuse/harassment they have been receiving. So when they react to harassment, etc., do not try to correct them, rebuke them, admonish them, or anything in any way. Just try to get past the "offender" without further incident/tragedy. Do not apologize to anyone. Just get your dogs out of harm's way straight away.

Now, what I have to say next is not in any way intended to make you feel badly about yourself, or to judge you, or condemn you. I understand it takes all kinds, and you are just a gentle person, and cannot be anything other than what you are. That being said: Our society is deteriorating daily, falling prey to the savage practices of street/gang culture, and the new "Golden Rule: Do unto others BEFORE they do unto you." And nothing is ever going to change unless more people step in to effect a change, and make a difference. If you have never heard of the "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" by Stephen R. Covey, I suggest you look for it, and read it. Habit number 1 is to "Be Proactive," working first within your own circle of influence. This may involve reaching out to others in your community, or it may involve moving immediately to a different one. Obviously, your "own circle of influence" is determined largely by your temperament, and your own sense of empowerment. I agree, you need to get out of that apartment complex right away.

I also have to tell you a little about myself: I work in a youth crisis center. We take in youth from all over the country, mostly inner city youth. These kids come from impoverished, dysfunctional, broken homes. They are drug abusers, or the children of drug abusers. They have been beaten, neglected, and raped. They live according to the golden rule you and I have both described. They come from places like your apartment complex. Many of them have a history of violence and animal cruelty-- as a result, pets are not allowed on the premises, even accompanying visiting family, or as therapy animals. Many of these youth have been "sentenced" there for discipline following a criminal history. Yes, indeed, they have committed crimes. Some of them have even been taken to adult prison in shackles upon their 18th birthdays! And I know one thing: Unless more very brave individuals take action to get involved, rather than keeping to themselves, the problem will only get worse, and the facilities like the one I work in will always be packed to over-flowing, and we will have to keep building more and more and more. My little region alone has more than five of these youth crisis centers already! And we are actually a "small town."

Keeping to ourselves and avoiding involvement is not a solution. It only adds to the problem. And as I already stated, Puppy Love, I understand that not everyone is able to be a part of the force to effect change. It's okay. But I'm hoping that one day, you will be inspired, and find it within yourself to join the crowd of Highly Effective People who are trying to make a difference, and make our world a better place for our children and grandchildren.

Hang in there, Puppylove. I hope you can get out of that situation, and into a better one, just so you can get some rest enough to find your own inner strength again. And feel free to use this forum as a sounding board anytime. We will lend our shoulders to cry on, and send a hug whenever you need it.

[puppylove2009]

Its working.....well the desensitation technique. Sashie is doing real good around bikes and people running by now.....now if we can just get her to keep going it should help.....though the neighbors made a rude comment toward her yesterday when she starting barking at there little fluffy dog that barked and growled at Sasha as they walked by (Superbowl parties awful night) but other than that they are doing good.....now just to get out of here

[lil mutt]

have you tried slowly socializing your pets to other dogs and people?

puppy- I just read this- I get it ok. I came from a high crime rate area- kids carry guns these days with no thought behind it- You do keep to yourself it is what you do..........to survive- Im glad your getting out. Cops to me in the past are worthless- they do nothing then you have to sit and wait for retaliation - and at what price? Your life or your dogs- people die over parking spaces at malls...........sick world

Maybe its not that bad for you- but I see what you are saying, Im glad things are working out.

[puppylove2009]

Originally Posted by lil mutt

have you tried slowly socializing your pets to other dogs and people?

Not to people in this place....never will. I don't socialize with the neighbors. But my dogs do have playdates with my friends and relatives dogs on a weekly basis.

Mostly they play with my grandparents bichon but sometimes they play with my uncles lab, my other uncles boxers, and my dads (when we visit him out of state, we are actually moving closer to him) beagle, maltese, lab, and lab mix.

My mom doesn't want us over at her house my dogs are too big she says. (she has a 4 pound poodle)

And then they play with my best friends Chihuahua/Dachshund mix

My other friends Rat Terrier

My other friends Fox Terrier.



The problem only lies here at the complex.


It used to be a safe place. I've lived in this area my whole life and the apartments were real safe still when we moved in.....but then the economy got bad they lowered the rent and we have some real bad things going on here now.
(To give you an idea we are paying close to 1000 dollars on rent (not including our pet fees and pet rent, we have neighbors with the same exact size apartment paying between 650-750, they dropped the rent like 200 dollars, until then this was a real nice place but now its trashed litter everywhere, broken beer bottles (my dog got glass lodged in her face, her muzzle area because of that), smashed car windows. 7 months ago this stuff wasn't going on at all. We moved from a bad area, my husbands parents moved to not the nicest area but it was closer to their work, so when we got engaged we found a place out there not realizing it was that rough but I felt a whole lot safer there then in this nice town where I grew up, probably because of all thats moving in to the area now)

But the treat thing is working with the barking. We actually walked them around the complex last night (its staying light later now) and we had no problems. (We usually take them somewhere safer to walk after dark)

Until we got around our building and they saw someone and went nuts barking at them.

but on the walk we had no problems with people or dogs passing by.....just right around our apartment.

[puppylove2009]

I wanted to Add the dogs do pretty much go everywhere with us. (Well except for errands like the grocery and stuff) but if we are just running out to get gas or fast food, or just going for a ride, or going for a visit. They go with us. I mean they are such good dogs but at home outside around the apartment we have issues. If they were bad we wouldn't take them everywhere with us

Hey you know Puppylove, it just occured to me: Since you know your dogs are "nice" elsewhere, and since your complex is so scary now, maybe it isn't such a bad idea just to let your dogs bark-- you know, like "tell people off," warn them that they'd better not mess with "their people..." Even though they are just little, yappy dogs, apparently a lot of your neighbors are somewhat afraid of them. That could be a good thing, really-- at least you know people are less likely to actually break into your apartment. I think you should just ignore all those scumbags-- don't even apologize when your dogs yap at them-- and just keep on doing what ya gotta do, until you can get out. (Oh, and here's another hug (((( ))))-- I'm glad you seem to be feeling better today)

[puppylove2009]

I won't let them bark because animal control has come out for a lot less (not for us) than barking.


I don't want them barking because I don't want them taken away You know.

I mean when they start up like that people think they are vicious and they aren't And we never ever take them off leash outside (they like to chase cars and we have a leash law) so I mean I don't think there is anything anyone can do but I still worry