Crate Training - Newfie!

Andy · 03-14-2010

Hello,

We got our newfie puppy yesterday, and I know it's early days but want to start as we mean to go on!

We bought a crate that was deemed to be suitable for a Newfie, so quite a big crate. We got the puppy home, familiarised her with the garden, she did her 'business', lots of praise etc from us. We then put her in the crate and she fell asleep, and everything seemed fine.

We took her outside again just before bed at about 11:30, and she went. Through the night she whined, barked, screeched etc and we did our best to ignore it. My wife gave in after about 2 hours, took her outside (no action), and gave her some fresh water. She continued to make noise after going back into the crate. We took her outside again a couple of times, but nothing happened.

We both got up this morning at about 7:00 and she had messed in her crate. We have a blanket on one side and newspaper on the other. She had done it on the newspaper, and trodden in into her bed. We cleaned it up, and took her outside.

She has since been twice outside, and twice in her crate. My question is, how do we stop her going in her crate, or at least make her more concious about her crate being her 'home/bed'. Some people have said our crate is too big, and the puppy should be in a small crate so she will not want to go to the toilet in her bed. Would we be better making the crate smaller and removing the newspaper from it?

Sorry for the long post, lack of sleep is clouding my thinking!

CorkyMax · 03-14-2010

quote: Some people have said our crate is too big, and the puppy should be in a small crate so she will not want to go to the toilet in her bed. Would we be better making the crate smaller and removing the newspaper from it? (unquote)

Since this question has been brought up before in here and many have suggested making the crate smaller, nothing wrong with making it smaller---just don't do what this member did----See her post below that I copied and pasted here----------------------------------->
My dog needs surgery!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I followed everyones advise and made my crate smaller. I used metal mesh and cut the crate inhalf - just allowing enough room for my "Bella" to move and lye down. Well...Bella chewed up some of the medal and it's now lodge in the lining in her stomach wall as well as her small intestines! She stopped eating on Saturday and was very quiet. My husband took her to our vet today and she has only a 30-40% change of this "passing" through her. She hasn't kept food/water down and is very dehydrated. We brought her home tonight and she's on a special food to help her keep it down. If this doesn't work she'll need surgery. She is only 11 months old. The cost of this can be anywhere from $1500-2400.00. We don't have that cash!! Does anyone know of any place I can search for donations? I went on Care Credit and was approved for some of it. I don't want to put her down - which will be the end results if I don't come up with the rest of the money. I am praying that she can pass this on her own. I am so desperate for some feedback! She is like my "baby" and I couldn't bare think of her gone at 11 months old!

Andy · 03-14-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

quote: Some people have said our crate is too big, and the puppy should be in a small crate so she will not want to go to the toilet in her bed. Would we be better making the crate smaller and removing the newspaper from it? (unquote)

Since this question has been brought up before in here and many have suggested making the crate smaller, nothing wrong with making it smaller---just don't do what this member did----See her post below that I copied and pasted here----------------------------------->
My dog needs surgery!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I followed everyones advise and made my crate smaller. I used metal mesh and cut the crate inhalf - just allowing enough room for my "Bella" to move and lye down. Well...Bella chewed up some of the medal and it's now lodge in the lining in her stomach wall as well as her small intestines! She stopped eating on Saturday and was very quiet. My husband took her to our vet today and she has only a 30-40% change of this "passing" through her. She hasn't kept food/water down and is very dehydrated. We brought her home tonight and she's on a special food to help her keep it down. If this doesn't work she'll need surgery. She is only 11 months old. The cost of this can be anywhere from $1500-2400.00. We don't have that cash!! Does anyone know of any place I can search for donations? I went on Care Credit and was approved for some of it. I don't want to put her down - which will be the end results if I don't come up with the rest of the money. I am praying that she can pass this on her own. I am so desperate for some feedback! She is like my "baby" and I couldn't bare think of her gone at 11 months old!

Thank you for the reply. I wouldn't be cutting any mesh if I was going to make it smaller, would just use very thick boarding, but don't think we will go down that route now.

We are considering buying a smaller crate, but this also seems a bit counter productive. In a small crate, isn't she just going to makes noises all night when she needs to go! If the crate is bigger and she can go away from her bed, wouldn't this be better?

It can get very confusing!

On a positive note, she has just been to the toilet in the designated area of the garden, without any hesitation. :-D

Yogi · 03-14-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy

Thank you for the reply. I wouldn't be cutting any mesh if I was going to make it smaller, would just use very thick boarding, but don't think we will go down that route now.

We are considering buying a smaller crate, but this also seems a bit counter productive. In a small crate, isn't she just going to makes noises all night when she needs to go! If the crate is bigger and she can go away from her bed, wouldn't this be better?

It can get very confusing!

On a positive note, she has just been to the toilet in the designated area of the garden, without any hesitation. :-D

The unfortunate thing when it comes to crate training larger breeds is that you will most likely go through 2 or 3 different crates by the time the dog is fully grown. The crate should be just large enough for the puppy/dog to stand, turn and lay down in. Larger than this only provides room for what you are experiencing. You did not state the age of the puppy which could have something to do with the pups reaction at night. Too young or still acclimated to sleeping with litter mates brings a sense of loneliness which can cause the crying. Placing clothing with your scent on it for bedding and covering the crate at night generally helps. It offers a den sensation where there is darkness and no visual distractions. As dogs rely on their senses ie: smell, sight etc. the more that you can do to alleviate the fear and provide calmness the better. Good luck.
I start crate training my pups at 6 weeks so by the time they go to their new homes, they sleep like babies. Covered and through out the night with no issues.

Lunareclipse · 03-14-2010

congrats on your new newfie. They are so cuddly!

Todd · 03-14-2010

I def. agree with getting a smaller crate or crate separator. The crate should only be big enough for the dog to stand up and reposition itself. If not, it will poop or pee then lay away from it. If the crate is smaller the dog will either hold it or lay in it. Generally they will hold it the best they can because their instinct is no to go where they sleep.

Also, as far as the whining goes where is the crate kept at night in comparison to you? You should move the crate into your room for now until she gets a bit more comfortable. Put it right tbeside the bed. As time goes on and she gets more and more comfortable, move the crate further and further away until it's eventually out of your room and in its desired destination. Just be patient with her.

Good luck on the new pup!

Bogart · 03-15-2010

Hi:

I crate trained my Newfie, Bogart, when I first brought him home - he is now a 200lb teenager. In my experience (and I have crate trained all my dogs), it does not matter the size of the crate. I always put my new puppies on a strick feeding/water schedule. The minute he/she was done eating, I would immediately bring he/she outdoors and absolutely would not bring them in until they did their business - the second they were done, I would. Also, if you keep the food in their crate...I find that dogs will not go to the bathroom where their food is.

Todd · 03-15-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogart

Hi:

I crate trained my Newfie, Bogart, when I first brought him home - he is now a 200lb teenager. In my experience (and I have crate trained all my dogs), it does not matter the size of the crate. I always put my new puppies on a strick feeding/water schedule. The minute he/she was done eating, I would immediately bring he/she outdoors and absolutely would not bring them in until they did their business - the second they were done, I would. Also, if you keep the food in their crate...I find that dogs will not go to the bathroom where their food is.

In this situation I'd say the crate size IS very important because the particular dog IS going in the crate.

Bogart · 03-15-2010

When I brought Bogart home at 8 weeks, I had an extremely large crate for him. I put his bed, a big stuffed bear, a shirtshirt of mine that he could cuddle up to, along with his food and water. He never had an accident in the crate - this is why I don't believe the size of the crate matters (in my opinion). Clearly you wouldn't put a large dog in a to of a small crate - not what I meant.

Anyway, my experience is as long as you keep with a strick feeding, water and potty schedule, your puppy will very quickly put 2 and 2 together. I realized (it took me a day or two) with Bogart, that if I waited about 20 minutes after he ate and drank was when he was ready to do his business.

Bogart whimpered at first as well, but as soon as I put the stuffed bear along with my sweatshirt, the crying stopped.

Remember to always make his crate his safe and happy place. Never use it as a tool for discipline.

Congrats on your baby Newf. They are great dogs. I am crazy about Bogart and would never own another breed.

Todd · 03-15-2010

Can't you buy crates that come with separate pieces to divide a larger one into sections so it will last through the puppie's growth?

Yogi · 03-16-2010

There are crates that you can buy that come with dividers so that they start out small and by removing a divider they can be enlarged but that is primarily a depth and width issue. It does not address the height. An overall large crate for a dog that as a puppy is small is like putting it into a room instead of a crate as you have given it an area to go in another to sleep in.
Granted Bogart did touch on one subject that though not common ie: feed and water in the crate. I feed mine in their crates but do not leave food in there.
When it is feed time they go in, I place their food in there and cover them up. After awhile they are uncovered and let out. I gather their food bowls up. At night they get a cookie. They are never crated as a means of discipline as this does in fact send the wrong signal. By feeding them in their crate it does reinforce that the crate is a good place and many of mine when they just want to be away from the others go to their crates on their own as a sanctuary.

Todd · 03-16-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yogi

There are crates that you can buy that come with dividers so that they start out small and by removing a divider they can be enlarged but that is primarily a depth and width issue. It does not address the height. An overall large crate for a dog that as a puppy is small is like putting it into a room instead of a crate as you have given it an area to go in another to sleep in.
Granted Bogart did touch on one subject that though not common ie: feed and water in the crate. I feed mine in their crates but do not leave food in there.
When it is feed time they go in, I place their food in there and cover them up. After awhile they are uncovered and let out. I gather their food bowls up. At night they get a cookie. They are never crated as a means of discipline as this does in fact send the wrong signal. By feeding them in their crate it does reinforce that the crate is a good place and many of mine when they just want to be away from the others go to their crates on their own as a sanctuary.

well it wouldn't really matter what the height was would it? the crates can be very tall even if the puppy is short. width is the issue so they cant poop beside themselves or whatever.

Yogi · 03-16-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

well it wouldn't really matter what the height was would it? the crates can be very tall even if the puppy is short. width is the issue so they cant poop beside themselves or whatever.

Yes and no. The concept of the crate ie: just large enough to stand, turn around and lay down in is associated with the concept of a den. Even in the wild, more often than not by creating a shallow small area, it keeps the heat in and the dam is not overly concerned that she generally has to stoop down when in it. By keeping the space close in as in height, width as well as length it offers security, privacy etc. Which is one of the purposes for crates. Reinforcing the use of the crate in this manner by feeding in it etc only helps to show the pup that it is their space and they can feel secure in it for other than just a place at night to sleep in. When you watch fox pups come out of the crate in videos you will notice they do not go far from it and if there is a noise that is unfamiliar, they dart back in. Dogs have carried much of this instinct it is just re-acclimating them to it. That is the reason I generally start them out young. This way they can be ready when the go to their new homes. My prior Papillon litter when sold were all crate trained. One of the dogs went to a young couple that waited til the second day to get a crate. The one they purchased was far too large. They put the dog in bathroom the first night with a little dog bed. It whimpered throughout the night. The next night they put the dog in the bathroom again with the correct size crate but left the door open. It again whimpered all night. The next morning they called concerned as to why this was happening. When they told me the events I explained that first, the dog is a companion breed and needs to be close to people. I asked if he had bonded more so with anyone than others. They stated he followed their 6 year old daughter all around. I told them to put the pup in its crate that night, cover the crate and put the crate on the bed at the end of it. They went to bed at 10:00 that night. The next morning with no noise of movement from the crate around 7:00 am they became concerned. Uncovering the crate and opening the door there he was still sound asleep and not a peep out of him all night. Also, none ever messed their crates. They pulled water around 7:00pm every evening and he was fed around 5:00 pm second feeding. That was nearly 8 months ago and he is still fine. He now jumps on the bed and goes in the crate waiting to be covered up when the daughter goes to bed.

Todd · 03-16-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yogi

Yes and no. The concept of the crate ie: just large enough to stand, turn around and lay down in is associated with the concept of a den. Even in the wild, more often than not by creating a shallow small area, it keeps the heat in and the dam is not overly concerned that she generally has to stoop down when in it. By keeping the space close in as in height, width as well as length it offers security, privacy etc. Which is one of the purposes for crates. Reinforcing the use of the crate in this manner by feeding in it etc only helps to show the pup that it is their space and they can feel secure in it for other than just a place at night to sleep in. When you watch fox pups come out of the crate in videos you will notice they do not go far from it and if there is a noise that is unfamiliar, they dart back in. Dogs have carried much of this instinct it is just re-acclimating them to it. That is the reason I generally start them out young. This way they can be ready when the go to their new homes. My prior Papillon litter when sold were all crate trained. One of the dogs went to a young couple that waited til the second day to get a crate. The one they purchased was far too large. They put the dog in bathroom the first night with a little dog bed. It whimpered throughout the night. The next night they put the dog in the bathroom again with the correct size crate but left the door open. It again whimpered all night. The next morning they called concerned as to why this was happening. When they told me the events I explained that first, the dog is a companion breed and needs to be close to people. I asked if he had bonded more so with anyone than others. They stated he followed their 6 year old daughter all around. I told them to put the pup in its crate that night, cover the crate and put the crate on the bed at the end of it. They went to bed at 10:00 that night. The next morning with no noise of movement from the crate around 7:00 am they became concerned. Uncovering the crate and opening the door there he was still sound asleep and not a peep out of him all night. Also, none ever messed their crates. They pulled water around 7:00pm every evening and he was fed around 5:00 pm second feeding. That was nearly 8 months ago and he is still fine. He now jumps on the bed and goes in the crate waiting to be covered up when the daughter goes to bed.

Mmmmm, very interesting. Thanks for the insite!

But here's something I don't quite understand. In the past you and other expressed the differences between wolves and domestic dogs. For instance, you said not to use the alpha role because wolves in the wild do it but domestic dogs do not. Domestic dogs are different. Same with diet. With this being said, why do you try to emulate a dog's crate to a den which a wild wolf lives in if domestic dogs and wolves are so different? No disrespect here. Just an observation.

Yogi · 03-16-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

Mmmmm, very interesting. Thanks for the insite!

But here's something I don't quite understand. In the past you and other expressed the differences between wolves and domestic dogs. For instance, you said not to use the alpha role because wolves in the wild do it but domestic dogs do not. Domestic dogs are different. Same with diet. With this being said, why do you try to emulate a dog's crate to a den which a wild wolf lives in if domestic dogs and wolves are so different? No disrespect here. Just an observation.

Have you ever seen the reaction of a dog when there is thunder and it is frightened of it? The first thing you will notice is that they will try to hide in the darkest smallest space. Even humans carry instincts from those that we came from but that does not mean all of them are still intact. The den issue is one that has proven to offer a calming effect and using a crate proportionate to the dogs size ie: turning, standing and laying down with no additional room affords the dog the feeling of comfort and calmness especially if it is covered. If you note, I never stated that all issues in dogs are different than wolves but the generic comparison as a means to define reason for what some do with regards to diet etc is not factual only speculated based on the fact that dogs derive from Wolves. Most are different but as with people, some things remain the same. In this case it is one of the inherited traits linked through out the centuries when it comes to dogs that they prefer a dark secluded space which offers them security and seclusion. We can only assume it is linked back to the wolf or fox or whatever breed it came from. Keep in mind, dogs did not bark, man taught dogs to do this. Therefore dogs are not inheritably the same as wolves but only carry some of their traits. Domestication of wild dogs to pets has removed over the centuries the majority of the traits that Wolves and Foxes are noted for. What few things remain are part of the natural progression over the centuries and their overall domestication. Based on this, using wolves as a comparison on how dogs act is not necessarily true since the alpha roll is not something that wolves actually do either. If you watch a wolf pack closely you will see that wolves lower in rank will show submission by instinctively baring their stomachs and throat. An alpha to reaffirm status will bite onto the throat but will not injure, only hold the lower ranking one.
The biting on the muzzle is more commonly found in dogs when dams correct biting issues ie: teaching bite inhibition. The difference in the technique that trainers use and that of actual Wolves is that the trainer forcefully puts the pup on its back forcing it to submit. With wolves it is a means of greeting and showing respect for the elder or alpha, by electing to roll and expose itself most often on its own. Those that fail are then attacked which at that time after a scuffle and the lower ranking wolf realizes it cannot challenge instinctively takes to the submissive posture. It is not being forced but is conceding. Keep in mind, an alpha is not an alpha forever. Lower ranking ones will challenge until the alpha is defeated. In the technique trainers use they never address this issue. So what ends up happening when a dog is to the age of challenge. You have a 175 Malamute and you think you can forcefully do it now as opposed to a pup. No, not really so if the dog challenges what do you do. The thing is Wolves instinctively continue to challenge for higher ranking status. Dogs though if wild or left to run will resort to pack order, dogs raised in the home and kept in the home do not resort to this behavior even if there are many in the home so long as they know you are the ones controlling everything. It is easy to link dogs and wolves but it is not as easy as everyone thinks when it comes to diets, behavior etc. There has been far too many centuries pass since dogs descended from wolves where assuming that a dog carries all the traits of a wolf is simply not true. Otherwise feel free to go get a wolf and raise it. If Wolves raised domestically are a serious handful and require special care. I have had wolf mixes since I was a boy and even they do not fit what we generally think of when we think of a dog.

Todd · 03-16-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yogi

Have you ever seen the reaction of a dog when there is thunder and it is frightened of it? The first thing you will notice is that they will try to hide in the darkest smallest space. Even humans carry instincts from those that we came from but that does not mean all of them are still intact. The den issue is one that has proven to offer a calming effect and using a crate proportionate to the dogs size ie: turning, standing and laying down with no additional room affords the dog the feeling of comfort and calmness especially if it is covered. If you note, I never stated that all issues in dogs are different than wolves but the generic comparison as a means to define reason for what some do with regards to diet etc is not factual only speculated based on the fact that dogs derive from Wolves. Most are different but as with people, some things remain the same. In this case it is one of the inherited traits linked through out the centuries when it comes to dogs that they prefer a dark secluded space which offers them security and seclusion. We can only assume it is linked back to the wolf or fox or whatever breed it came from. Keep in mind, dogs did not bark, man taught dogs to do this. Therefore dogs are not inheritably the same as wolves but only carry some of their traits. Domestication of wild dogs to pets has removed over the centuries the majority of the traits that Wolves and Foxes are noted for. What few things remain are part of the natural progression over the centuries and their overall domestication. Based on this, using wolves as a comparison on how dogs act is not necessarily true since the alpha roll is not something that wolves actually do either. If you watch a wolf pack closely you will see that wolves lower in rank will show submission by instinctively baring their stomachs and throat. An alpha to reaffirm status will bite onto the throat but will not injure, only hold the lower ranking one.
The biting on the muzzle is more commonly found in dogs when dams correct biting issues ie: teaching bite inhibition. The difference in the technique that trainers use and that of actual Wolves is that the trainer forcefully puts the pup on its back forcing it to submit. With wolves it is a means of greeting and showing respect for the elder or alpha, by electing to roll and expose itself most often on its own. Those that fail are then attacked which at that time after a scuffle and the lower ranking wolf realizes it cannot challenge instinctively takes to the submissive posture. It is not being forced but is conceding. Keep in mind, an alpha is not an alpha forever. Lower ranking ones will challenge until the alpha is defeated. In the technique trainers use they never address this issue. So what ends up happening when a dog is to the age of challenge. You have a 175 Malamute and you think you can forcefully do it now as opposed to a pup. No, not really so if the dog challenges what do you do. The thing is Wolves instinctively continue to challenge for higher ranking status. Dogs though if wild or left to run will resort to pack order, dogs raised in the home and kept in the home do not resort to this behavior even if there are many in the home so long as they know you are the ones controlling everything. It is easy to link dogs and wolves but it is not as easy as everyone thinks when it comes to diets, behavior etc. There has been far too many centuries pass since dogs descended from wolves where assuming that a dog carries all the traits of a wolf is simply not true. Otherwise feel free to go get a wolf and raise it. If Wolves raised domestically are a serious handful and require special care. I have had wolf mixes since I was a boy and even they do not fit what we generally think of when we think of a dog.

OK. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am one of those people who believe dogs and wolves are more closely related than others think so I do believe in the den comparison you are talking about.

Lara's mom · 03-22-2010

I know this is "off topic" but, can you clear something up for me? I was taught from the time I was a little girl that the term, "Newfie" was derogatory and insulting and should never be used to refer to Canadians from the east coast. I was brought up to consider it like the "N" word, the "P" word, the "W" word, etc. Has something changed? If that hadn't been the name you logged on with, I would never in a million years have used it. Can you explain?