[xtopdawg386x]

Originally Posted by PersistantPuppy

I'm sorry??? You took a leather belt to a puppy? You actually raised your hands to a puppy?

My puppy is 9 weeks old. She sits, lies down, gives a paw, does not bite or nip, and toilets correctly without me EVER having to force her or lift a hand to her.

Dogs in a pack use other methods to organise themselves and enforce discipline. It doesn't include a leather belt or a hand.

Yea pack leader that involve dogs as the leaders use biting to get what they want im not going to bit my dogs . yes i popped there butt with a leather belt @ 4/5 months 1-2 times depending on the behavior how ever your talking a puppy weighing 50 + pounds at this age . Thumping them with a finger on the nose when there younger it does not break any thing or put them in horrible pain it gets there attention with very little pain . If you wanna see how much thump your self on the arm or even nose you will see its not much at all how ever it gets your attention . I find electric collars far more pain full then thumping there nose when there a puppy . I did not say to beat the puppy or dog to the ground like you would beat a person to the ground in a street fight . How ever my dogs are some of the best trained and disciplined dogs most people have ever seen . I can sick my APBT on a hog and give the command to stop them before they attack and they will slide to a stop and wait for another command . You may have a different way of teaching your animal how ever mine works for me and your may work for you .How ever i would be willing to bet your not dealing with a powerful dog that can be ripped apart by a hog and still try to kill the hog with its guts hanging out . I did not say you beat the animal until it's half dead. You have to train dogs almost like you train your kids from wrong and right . if your child grabs something he not suppose to you pop his hand if he bites a another child you pop his butt . punishment has to fit the crime . you pop the child hand with your's once the child grown you introduce him to a belt . Same as you do with a puppy .

My rednose thats 8 yrs old you can petting on him (beat petting ) the dog he wages his tail and and turns around for you to beat on the other side and takes it as your loving on him it dont hurt them I should take a video and post it on you tube because its funny how happy he is when your doing it and how he comes rubbing up against you for more if you stop.

[reeskujo]

Well as a dog trainer I can tell you that you do not train a dog like you do a child...Their minds work differently..furthermore when I was raising my 4 kids I never took a belt to them so I for sure wouldn't do it to a puppy....lastly the Dog Whisperer as he likes to call himself has no formal training what so ever when it comes to dogs and other then a few of his approaches in my opinion as well as many other people he borders the line of abuse!

I've raised Akita's all of my adult life...They are extremely stubborn and go through a testing faze twice a year to try and get the pack leader status and because of the way I train them which btw,doesn't involve hitting or tapping on the nose they stop right away!

Try hitting an Akita with a belt or newspaper on the butt and see what the outcome is!...They tolerate no physical correction what so ever and they shouldn't have to!!!

[PersistantPuppy]

xtopdawg386x

The fact that you condone using a leather belt on a child, as well as a puppy, just beggars belief.

You proudly say you raise APBT's that can tear a hog apart.....you call yourself TopDawg, you hit puppies and children with leather belts.

I have nothing more to say.

[fairydogmother]

I am glad to see that idiot was banned. It would be nice if there was a way to report them for animal abuse.

[PersistantPuppy]

Gosh, yes...I just woke up to this. I think he must have upset an awful lot of people. I know everyone is entitled to their own point of view, but he sounded like he was on a power trip.

I just hope he doesn't return under another name.

[pitbull386]

Originally Posted by PersistantPuppy

xtopdawg386x

The fact that you condone using a leather belt on a child, as well as a puppy, just beggars belief.

You proudly say you raise APBT's that can tear a hog apart.....you call yourself TopDawg, you hit puppies and children with leather belts.

I have nothing more to say.

To add a comment to what you said .I grew up being spanked with a belt as a child there nothing wrong with it . If i did something wrong as a child i new when i got home and dad found out he was going to spank me with a belt . There no problem with corporal punishment .If you think there is well you can see since the 50's 60's 70's 80's and early part of the 90's it worked great had fewer kids going to jail and commenting crimes and more respectable children . since all the child abuse people popped up saying you cant spank your child because its abuse well the children now are disrespectful to adults and winding up in Juvenal prison and adult prison at younger ages . For your comment about spanking animals for wrong doing there nothing wrong with it . I will also add the breed is a good hog dog and yea i would be glad to have a great hog dog that can take down 400+ pound hogs .They were original used for bull baiting and to help butcher control the bull for slaughter so if you disagree with his comment about using them for hunting Then your to sensitive

[Sorsi]

For me Cesar Millan is the best, I learned a lot from his shows.

[lange]

Wow, hadn't read this till now. First, my brothers & sisters & I got beat as kids and yes it had us acting like good little soldiers. But once we were older it turned on my father & there was a lot of anger & resentment towards him that he had to deal with. You don't bully kids or dogs to gain respect. You may think they respect you but that's a one sided viewpoint. Get a person or dog with a strong, angry temperament and you have a menace. I wonder how many people in jail with anger problems were beat & humiliated as kids...hmmm..no brainer. My Dad being older & wiser, regrets how hard he was on us. Unfortunately it usually takes generations to grow out of this backwards, outdated mentality. I'm not completely opposed to a little swat on the butt but beatings only shows that the ADULT lost control already. True respect can only be earned.

But back on topic with dogs. TopDawg, I'm sure you're reading, you're not the only person in the world who owns APBT's to be the leading expert. Your mom as an example is very vague & someone can not go by not hitting alone with losing command of a dog. Other things come in to play.

I also HAVE TO add I don't think Cesar Millan & beatings shouldn't even be uttered in the same breath. Some people may not like him or his methods but not once has he condoned pain that I'm aware of. The only exception being a dog on a shock collar who was previously run over by farm equipment for his obsession on chasing & chewing the moving tires. If memory serves, the dog had even lost an eye?...

[Taming Rover]

I fully agree with Lange, with respect to the first part of the post, and also when it comes to Cesar Millan.
I understand that he can be seen as arrogant at times, but in terms of his theories, as far as I'm concerned they are bang on and his methods; I think that many of the dogs he trains have been living for so long with people that do not understand dogs or how to handle them, especially to large breeds, (or small breeds that people want to baby and overprotect turning them into little monsters!). He goes in and shows the dog in no uncertain terns and in a very short period of time that the behavior they have been showing is unacceptable anymore, and once the dog understands this he moves just as quickly into fulfilling their needs and giving affection which is usually all the dog needs, save from more socialization since people seem to want their dogs to be like cats and sit in the house all day and just entertain them when they are home.

[Gunnersmom]

Originally Posted by lange

Wow, hadn't read this till now. First, my brothers & sisters & I got beat as kids and yes it had us acting like good little soldiers. But once we were older it turned on my father & there was a lot of anger & resentment towards him that he had to deal with. You don't bully kids or dogs to gain respect. You may think they respect you but that's a one sided viewpoint. Get a person or dog with a strong, angry temperament and you have a menace. I wonder how many people in jail with anger problems were beat & humiliated as kids...hmmm..no brainer. My Dad being older & wiser, regrets how hard he was on us. Unfortunately it usually takes generations to grow out of this backwards, outdated mentality. I'm not completely opposed to a little swat on the butt but beatings only shows that the ADULT lost control already. True respect can only be earned.

But back on topic with dogs. TopDawg, I'm sure you're reading, you're not the only person in the world who owns APBT's to be the leading expert. Your mom as an example is very vague & someone can not go by not hitting alone with losing command of a dog. Other things come in to play.

I also HAVE TO add I don't think Cesar Millan & beatings shouldn't even be uttered in the same breath. Some people may not like him or his methods but not once has he condoned pain that I'm aware of. The only exception being a dog on a shock collar who was previously run over by farm equipment for his obsession on chasing & chewing the moving tires. If memory serves, the dog had even lost an eye?...

I agree 100%,how many of the dogs on the show were headed to the euthanasia table if he had not stepped in.now their are once again loved famliy members.

[CorkyMax]

I 1st answered this thread a year ago but over time I have changed my mind---I still think Cesar Millan is full of himself but I --after reading a couple of the last posts here and especially the QUOTE from Gunnersmom: I agree 100%,how many of the dogs on the show were headed to the euthanasia table if he had not stepped in.now their are once again loved famliy members. You make a very good point--and I'm all for saving dogs!! Cesar prob. has saved the most dogs as he never gives up that I can see! So I am now going with Cesar!

Guess I can't change my vote on the poll but think if everybody who can't vote now --could--the polls may be more correct with Cesar being in the lead or darn close! If I could change even my vote--Cesar would be at 5 and Victoria would be at 7.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

I 1st answered this thread a year ago but over time I have changed my mind---I still think Cesar Millan is full of himself but I --after reading a couple of the last posts here and especially the QUOTE from Gunnersmom: I agree 100%,how many of the dogs on the show were headed to the euthanasia table if he had not stepped in.now their are once again loved famliy members. You make a very good point--and I'm all for saving dogs!! Cesar prob. has saved the most dogs as he never gives up that I can see! So I am now going with Cesar!

Guess I can't change my vote on the poll but think if everybody who can't vote now --could--the polls may be more correct with Cesar being in the lead or darn close! If I could change even my vote--Cesar would be at 5 and Victoria would be at 7.

But what is to say that this would have been true with the dogs seen by the other trainers. There is no way. The odds are that the other trainers have also dealt with dogs that were close to be euthanized until they interceded. It is just that Milans show is so publicized that it gives the appearance that he has saved so many when in reality the others have probably also.

[CorkyMax]

I am still thinking Cesar as Yes he is 'firmer' with the dogs that are harder to rehabilitate and these would be the dogs that would be the ones to more likely to be euthanized! I don't think Victoria could handle the 'toughest' dogs that would likely be euthanized.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

I am still thinking Cesar as Yes he is 'firmer' with the dogs that are harder to rehabilitate and these would be the dogs that would be the ones to more likely to be euthanized! I don't think Victoria could handle the 'toughest' dogs that would likely be euthanized.

I think you may be surprised, I have seen a couple of her shows where this was the situation she was presented with. Again, you only hear more about Milan so there is no way to know how often the other trainers have not been put into this position since we generally only hear or see his show. There have been trainers long before him that have worked with these type of dogs and there will be others after him. To assume that he is the only one would be naive in thinking. Be reminded, he is the one who also kicks dogs. There is a fine line in working with hard to train dogs or dogs with issues and having to kick them in order to get them to adjust. It is not to say he has not had success but we do not know of his failures as those will never be publicized outside of his producers dog that Milan injured with his overly rough treatment.

[CorkyMax]

I still think Cesar could handle the 'roughest' dogs better than Victoria-----I do not know the other 2 trainers mentioned--Take note!---But between Cesar and Victoria --if I had a dog that I loved and it would need to be euthanized if it wasn't 'controlled' and I had to call in a dog trainer---I would definately choose Cesar.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Corky/Max

I still think Cesar could handle the 'roughest' dogs better than Victoria-----I do not know the other 2 trainers mentioned--Take note!---But between Cesar and Victoria --if I had a dog that I loved and it would need to be euthanized if it wasn't 'controlled' and I had to call in a dog trainer---I would definately choose Cesar.

Watch the episode with Victoria and the Great Danes, I think you would be surprised how she was able to handle "roughest" dogs. One of these was totally out of control and we are talking 180lbs dogs.

[Deafdogsrule]

I hate Cesar. there, I said it, I absolutely cant stand the man. His Pack theory is outdated, his methods often cruel, and most dogs I've seen on his show are not calm submissive, but fearful and have no idea where to turn to stop the fear, so they shut down. I saw an epidode where he put an e-collar on a dog with severe seperation anxiety, as well as put a Scat Mat on the floor infront of the door, and sound devices and citronella spray devices near the window... Yes the dog quit attacking the front door, but she was out of her mind terrified... do you think she's going to be calmer when her people leave if every time her people leave she gets shocked and sprayed and bombarded with scary sounds... I think not. The ends do not justify the means.

The only thing I agree with is his focus on exercise, and placing clear boundries and rules on a dog... but there's where I differ. My dogs know the rules without me correcting them. They are taught what is expected of them and rewarded for following through. I want a relationship built on trust, rather than one built on "dominance"

Karen Pryor, Victoria Stilwell, Dr. Ian Dunbar, Dr. Stanley Coren, Turid Rugaas, and Emma Parsons have ALOT more to offer the dogs, their methods are not physical, they're not adversive, best of all they're based on SCIENCE!

Positive training and clicker training just works better.

I've read 3 of Cesar's books, 2 of Karen Prior's, Emma Parsons book, one Dr. Stanley Coren book, 2 Dr. Ian Dunbar, one Turid Rugaas, and seen some of Stilwell's shows. And read NUMEROUS articles on the SCIENCE behind Clicker Training and PR...

I'll stick with them, thanks. I dont need to abuse (correct) my dogs when they dont listen, because they respect and trust me (and lets face it, get rewarded), they'll listen almost always.

[lange]

In reality Cesar Millan is not a dog trainer. He focuses on problem dogs & their owners not obedience training. Not everyone has had experience with deeply problematic dogs. I've seen some dogs on his shows that had I owned I would have probably put to sleep. I haven't seen these extremes on Victoria's show. Then again, I AM a couple years behind on both shows. (BTW, Sara, do you happen to know the title or season/episode of the dog you mentioned? I never seen that one. It sounds disappointing. :???:

I'm not writing this to defend Cesar, I don't know the guy. But I think there's a lot that can be learned & taken from him. I also think there's a lot that most people shouldn't try, like alpha rolling aggressive dogs. I take what I can from real dog trainers too, especially Dunbar & Patricia McConnell. I think it's ideal to find what works for individual dogs without limiting yourself with one method, or not being able to take something new from another.

I don't like everything Cesar does but I think he's is more right on target then not. His work on;
Dog Psychology -working through phobais, moving the mind forward, snapping them out of obsessive thoughts & aggressive focus, calming dogs, mirroring, ect
Owner Psychology -being pack leaders, bringing structure, balancing & being aware of their own emotions, coaxing confidence, being in tune with their dogs, ect
Dog Fundamentals - exercise, discipline, affection; seeing & fulfilling your dog first as animal, species, breed, then name.

These points alone make him someone, stand out to listen to imo.

I also believe in his pack leader mentality. I believe in family hierarchy, not democracy, which to me seems pretty similar to the theory of alphas. We all have different views on how we raise our dogs and kids. I believe in fairness & respect but ultimately I'm in charge & if I ask something of them, they should follow through. Am I stern? Definitely. Am I unfair? Not at all.

I hope no one takes offense to any of this. I realize we all love our dogs or we wouldn't be here. And we all come in with a lot of passion sharing our opinions. I like this. I find it interesting learning where everyone stands on these topics.

[Deafdogsrule]

I cant remember what season, or what the title was (it was a dog whisperer marathon on N. Geographic) But the dog's name was Sarah, and she was a German Shorthair Pointer.

Cesar is after the "quick fix" Which is often scary and painful for the dog. I do like how he's put the focus on what a dog needs. that's a good thing for the every day public to see...

[KodiBarracuda]

I think the bigger picture to look at in dog trainers and their TV shows is their TV shows. There are countless times I have seen Stillwell tell a dog to sit (a dog that has had no training and doesn't know sit from left or any gibberish word) and the dog will sit immediately. But it’s not just with her shows. There is so much training on all of those shows that is done behind the scenes that we can’t really use them to help us train our own dogs. If something doesn't go right for a trainer on TV, they can just take another shot where it does go right.

One Stillwell episode really hit this home for me. The dog was aggressive with toys and she didn't know that, and the dog got aggressive and later after the commercials Stillwell came on and said that she would have never used that motivator if she had been told all of the information. The take home point is that most owners wouldn't have known not to use a toy if the dog was sometimes toy aggressive or possessive even if she wouldn't have said that.

I feel that the best idea is: if you want professional training on your dog, bring in a professional. Don't try to take the tidbits from these shows and use them on your own, because most owners simply do not know the things trainers do.

On the other hand, from what I have seen I dislike Stillwell’s approach, which is, pretty much free shaping. Personally, I don't want my dog offering behavior. If I am in an obedience trail and I ask a behavior and the dog doesn't hear it or doesn't understand for whatever reason, I don't want it offering up random behaviors. I have found with free shaping if the dog doesn't get the treat immediately it will try a different behavior, even if it was right the first time, you were just trying to get a longer sit or down, or whatever you were asking for.
Another grievance I have with her is her lack of actual training on things other than the basics. If the dog is knocking over the garbage, she puts a weight into it, or a lid on it. But this doesn't solve the problem, and the dog will simply go find another thing to get into. I would rather see her actually train the dog that, that behavior is unacceptable, but because she refuses to correct, the dog only knows what behaviors are acceptable, and any other behavior it isn't sure about.

On the same hand, I don't particularly condone Millans way either, although I don't have as many grievances as I do with Stillwell’s way.

For me, corrections when bad behavior or unwanted behavior is exhibited and non treat related praise is earned for good behavior works best for me. Formal training sessions work best for me and my dogs. The result is that when I say sit, they sit, when I send them away, they go away. There are no problems with their comes or running downs or any other command.