[JMVos]

Hi all-
I have a dog that has some behavioral issues that have not been improving with my positive reinforcement techniques. The main behavior issue that I need to work on with him is his issue with chasing anything that moves. This includes trains (which come by about 100yds from my house), cars, bikes, and people who are running. I live in a very active community and I have been lucky that all of the bikers he has chased have been dog friendly.

He does fairly well on a leash and I can get him to sit and be calm while certain things pass by that get him excited. If he's off leash it's a whole other story. I try really hard to prevent any interaction outside with him off leash. Unfortunately I live in an apartment and there really isn't any enclosed areas where he can run without getting distracted. I need to work with him on his commands so that if he is off leash he will still listen no matter what else is going on around him.

I need something that can work for long ranges, preferably around 500 yds or more. I have been doing some research but there are so many out there. I would like to get one that can do both the high pitched warning tone as well as a shock that I would administer myself with a remote. Also one that I can adjust the settings. I'm hoping that the warning noise will deter me from having to actually shock him that much.

Have any of you used them and which ones do you have?

Thanks for your help!

[GSDS4Life]

Rule of thumb, a dog that is not 100% on recall should never be off leash.. But what you need to remember is some dogs just can't be off leash.

Being chased by a dog is very annoying. And I don't hesitate to tell the dog owner to put their dog on a leash. And yes I am a dog lover, I have 4 GSD's.

You need to work with the issues while your dog is leashed. And make sure there is a TON of praise. How is his sit/stay/down/leave it/come commands? If they are not good, then start on them.

Is there a dog friendly park near you? If so, buy a training lead. Start with a 10' training lead. Have some yummy treats with you. Start with the lead being 6'. When he"s about to chase, call his name along with the come command and walk in another direction. When he comes with you praise like crazy and give him a treat. Keep repeating this. Then have the lead out another foot. And continue with the first step.

With bikes and cars you can use the leave it command. Always praise like crazy. Remember all this takes time and patience. I hope what I was explaining made sense.

I worked very hard with my dogs. And in the end it was worth it. Heck I can leave a steak on the floor, leave for an hour and the steak will still be there.

As for shock collars, I am so not for them. It's us as owners who need to teach and work with our dogs.

[JMVos]

Thanks for the feedback.

99% of the time he is great on the leash. He knows sit/stay/come extremely well. And when he is on leash he listens to me extremely well. He'll sit down calmly and let a biker, car, runner, other dog, other person, etc. go past us. He comes when I call him and will sit down next to me every single time. I definitely need to work on the leave it command, I agree. I have been working on it and he's learning. It's when I need him to listen that he doesn't, of course. I don't want to have to use the shock collar forever but until I can get him in obedience training, I live in a rural community and I have to wait until April before the next class, at this point if it's the choice between a little shock to get his attention versus him getting hit by a train I have to go for the shock.

I completely agree with you that dogs should be on leash all the time. I don't take him off of leash on purpose. I have gone through 4 retractable gentle leader leashes. I will be working with him and will have the leash extended out. It will be at that point if he sees another dog or if a car comes by that sparks his attention. He will pull hard enough to either pull the leash out of my hands or break the leash entirely. He also knows how to open my screen door on my apartment. This has only happened twice in the entire time that I have had him but it always is the same process:

I will call his name and then he will see a car or hear the train or a biker or another dog. This doesn't happen often, I've had him since July, but it's happened enough to make me worried. He also got out of my hotel room the other day when my boyfriend didn't shut the door all the way. He wanted to follow him outside. If I leave I'll make him sit and stay which he will do but it was that ONE time that my boyfriend didn't do that and he followed him out the door. He then got distracted by the all the new smells. At one point he heard a car and he was off like a rocket. Unfortunately this just so happened to be on an on-ramp for the interstate. He didn't get hit, thank god, nor did he cause any accidents. It's situations like this where he knows he's doing something wrong and I'll try to call him back and he'll hear me but he doesn't want to come back to me because he knows as soon as he does he'll be in trouble for running away.

Unfortunately there is not a single dog park in my county, I live in a rural community in the mountains. There are fields but nothing fenced in. Also, barely anyone in the community has their dog on a leash which I cannot understand. It's unfortunate because he is the most social dog I have ever had, even for a lab, and all he wants to do is play. The problem is that the grassy area next to my complex is not fenced so I don't feel comfortable letting him off leash.

Thanks again for your pointers, I respect your views on the shock collars but I don't know what alternative I have until he is fully trained.

[lange]

I never allow my dogs off leash either but we do have a yard they can run free in. I can't help with information on shock/training collars, but since you say he comes loose accidentally from indoors to out, then with that in mind, he would literally have to wear it 24/7. Is that what you're planning on doing?

Reliable recall is hard to accomplish for most people. I'm included in there.

Originally Posted by JMVos

It's situations like this where he knows he's doing something wrong and I'll try to call him back and he'll hear me but he doesn't want to come back to me because he knows as soon as he does he'll be in trouble for running away.

This is an error on your behalf. A dog should never be reprimanded on a recall. It should also not feel that a recall is negative (with you being upset or mad) or else you run in to the problem you noted. Anytime a dog comes back to you, you should be ecstatic & praise even if you're p-o'd. You can either start over in training recall or start using a new word to recall so that he can associate the new word with positive, good things.

They key is making the dog think you are more interesting than the other people or bikes or cars. Dogs like high energy, goofy people so that's what you should become. In an emergency you should call using your recall word in a high pitched & happy voice while running AWAY, clapping and making a ton of noise. This is supposed to get the dog to chase you. Otherwise, when you face the dog or (even worse) run towards him, it does the opposite effect. He becomes the one to be chased.

On normal recall situations you should squat down, turning to the side, away from your dog, while saying recall word, whistling or clapping all excited. Aslo, you should NOT immediately put the leash back on & drag him away because he will learn that recall means you end "fun time". Instead make it fun to have the leash on and let him continue exploring before heading back home. And of course you can always treat and play.

[reeskujo]

As an experienced trainer I totally agree with everything Lange said as far as teaching reliable recall....It is exactly what I tell all of my students!

[Ghst]

I can tell you from experience, that a shock collar can be a useful device if properly used, and devestating to a dog if used improperly. My dad used one in the training of his coon hunting dogs. He had to setup the proper circumstances before ever administering a "shock" to his hounds. He had dogs that would come in just fine until it was time to go home, seemed they took their cue from the other trained dogs "loading up" as their time to to go huntin on their own. No amount of calling would get one hound in particular to "come in". He was left in the woods all night, my dad would leave his hunting coat hidden on the ground near where we had parked the truck the night before, the dog would be there but always stayed out of reach, just couldn't get your hands on him. Dad was finally able to get him to load, using food after about 3 days. The next time we took that hound hunting he was sporting the shock collar. We hunted several hours that night and when we finally returned to the truck, we recalled the pack of hounds in. One by one they all returned except for that one. My dad called to him but he just wouldn't come in. So my dad got back into the truck and cranked-up and started driving away. then he took the control to the collar and held it out the window and gave the dog a small bump with the collar. He drove a little bit farther then he stopped the truck, and opened the dog box. He didn't even have to call the dog,who eagerly loaded into the dog box. Never had a bit of trouble out of that one again. Dad said that because it was night-time, the hound didn't know what it was that happened to him out there in the woods alone, but Knew that, that never happened when he was with us. The "Bugger-in-the-Woods" had done got him!
The collars are a good tool to have if nothing elts will work. But it has to be used so the dog doesn't connect it to his owner, he only knows that when he is with his owner it never happens. Some dogs are smart enough to know that it is their collar doing the shocking, and have to wear dummy collars, because they will return to their bad habits when they aren't wearing the collar. A really bad thing about the collars was that the collars worked from signals from the controller to the collar, and would administer the shock to the dogs at inappropriate times, being triggered from other devices, CB radios and Cell Phones, and would ruin a good hunting dog. The second one my dad purchased was rather pricey, but could not be triggered to shock in this manner. In the right hands, and used properly, a shock collar is a great tool. In the wrong hands it could destroy your best friend.

[Ghst]

I was watching "The Dog Whisperer" yesterday. Cezar Millan showed a couple who had a dog with a serious tire biting habit, how to properly use the tool on the dog as a means to save the dogs life. The dog, was into biting the tires af moving vehicles and farm equipment, to the point where the dog had been run over several times by the owner, and had one of its canines pushed into the eye-socket, losing one eye. Cezar said that It was perfectly alright to use the shock collar to break the dog from biting the tires of the equipment (tractors) because if this wasn't brought under control quickly the dog would possibly die. He only bumped the dog twice and the dog steered clear of the tires that had been for so long, the object of his affection. Cezar said that the shock collar was a good tool to use to correct bad habits quickly because the dog might suffer another injury resulting from his bad habit, that may be fatal.

[HomeworkCrazy]

Training collars are only needed when there are NO OTHER OPTIONS. Even if there is a slim alternate chance that something else will work, try it. I have heard about a dog getting deathly ill from being overly trained with a training collar. I dislike the use of these collars because it causes the dog to yelp, which is obviously a reaction to pain. How would you like being shocked if you didn't know what to do??? :neutral:

[jameserickson80]

You all have great conversation of training a dog. I've never tried training my dog with those techniques. I maybe should.

[lange]

Originally Posted by Ghst

I was watching "The Dog Whisperer" yesterday. Cezar Millan showed a couple who had a dog with a serious tire biting habit, how to properly use the tool on the dog as a means to save the dogs life. The dog, was into biting the tires af moving vehicles and farm equipment, to the point where the dog had been run over several times by the owner, and had one of its canines pushed into the eye-socket, losing one eye. Cezar said that It was perfectly alright to use the shock collar to break the dog from biting the tires of the equipment (tractors) because if this wasn't brought under control quickly the dog would possibly die. He only bumped the dog twice and the dog steered clear of the tires that had been for so long, the object of his affection. Cezar said that the shock collar was a good tool to use to correct bad habits quickly because the dog might suffer another injury resulting from his bad habit, that may be fatal.

I remember that episode. It was the owners originally who wanted to use it though. The dog learned better with the shock collar than with having lost his eye...crazy!...

Originally Posted by HomeworkCrazy

Training collars are only needed when there are NO OTHER OPTIONS. Even if there is a slim alternate chance that something else will work, try it. I have heard about a dog getting deathly ill from being overly trained with a training collar. I dislike the use of these collars because it causes the dog to yelp, which is obviously a reaction to pain. How would you like being shocked if you didn't know what to do??? :neutral:

I agree too. I think some people use shock collars as a quick means to control a dog instead of teaching a dog to be obedient in general. But I disagree that a dog only yelps when he's in pain. They yelp when scared, surprised or who knows what else. My dog Wrigley sometimes yelps when he is overly riled up and you grab him by his collar. When he does it it startles the hell out of me or whoever is around. I can acknowledge this isn't your average dog behavior. He might do it maybe 3 or 4 times a year now. Wrigley definitely has quirks & is the highest strung, most anxious dog I've ever known. He is getting better with age but it's a slow progress. He's definitely my little neurotically challenge kid yet he is the sweetest dog!

I'm even thinking Kuma (our new girl & his first dog sibling) is becoming his little angel is disguise. She even tries to correct him when he starts getting overly mental, although she does it using dog correction so he of course doesn't seem to appreciate it. She is his exact opposite; very self assured, calm & RELAXED. It is yin & yang between these two!

(Sorry went a little off topic on this one )