[lange]

I branched off a post from a different thread so that I wouldn't completely highjack thread: Aggressive pup

Originally Posted by Deafdogsrule

What you have is a boisterous 6 month old lab puppy who has not been given any clear boundaries and leadership. I do not believe in the dominance theory, I do not believe in Cesar's methods, under no circumstances should a dog be alpha rolled, aggression should never be dealt with by aggression, it just escalates.

I have dealt with aggressive dogs, infact, I have 2. One is fear aggressive, and one was seriously spoiled, never given any rules to follow, and never trained... 6 weeks after I adopted the 6.5 year old dog, he's a normal, well-adjusted dog. I used clicker training, and patience. I never set him up to fail, and therefor, he never got a chance to practice bad behaviour.

If he were my dog here's what I'd do:

I would use clicker training techniques. I would feed his meals not in a bowl, but by hand. I'd keep his food in my pockets, and a clicker attached to my wrist. keep a leash on him at all times. in the beginning I'd tie him to a doorknob so I can be just out of reach. I'll walk up to him, click/treat for being near, but being calm... I'd click any behaviour that's not excited... eg: sit, down, calmly standing watching. If the pup is bouncing, whining, lunging... I would walk away, then try again in a minute... I'd do this several times a day.

After he's got the calm thing down, I'd let him loose, but dragging the leash I would click/treat any calm behaviour I saw throughout the day, and if he mouths you go back to being tied to a doorknob. I don't use my voice, or any adversives. Once he's learning to be calm, I'd start training sits, downs and other calm moves, using clicker training.

When walking him, I would walk him on a head collar and a harness with a double lead. I would use the halter to control his mouth, and the harness to control his body, so I could keep his mouth away from my hands. I would click/treat any nice walking, and keep the lead attached to the halter in such a way that he cant go after the hand. be fast with the clicks, in a 15 min walk I would probably go through a cup of food.

In never letting him practice the mouthing, the behaviour will disappear, as he will learn that attention and rewards happen when calm, and he will forget about mouthing. By practicing bad behaviour, all he learns is that bad behaviour gets him attention... it may not be good attention, but it is attention.

If you're interested in working with your pup in a non adversive way, go to Karen Pryor Clickertraining, and/or read "Reaching the Animal Mind" by Karen Pryor, and "Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog" by Emma Parsons. These are very good books.
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Sara

I've read a lot of good things on clicker training. I might try it out down the line out of curiosity. How do you use it when you have multiple dogs? How does either of the dogs know the click is directed towards a specific dog only?

I'm also curious how clicker training pans out with breeds that aren't always wanting to please, like an Akita (of course!) or another determined, independent breed. Has anyone had experience with this?

edit: I think I'll move my question to another board not to over run Tiggers. (training section)

[Deafdogsrule]

Originally Posted by lange

I branched off a post from a different thread so that I wouldn't completely highjack thread: Aggressive pup



I've read a lot of good things on clicker training. I might try it out down the line out of curiosity. How do you use it when you have multiple dogs? How does either of the dogs know the click is directed towards a specific dog only?

I'm also curious how clicker training pans out with breeds that aren't always wanting to please, like an Akita (of course!) or another determined, independent breed. Has anyone had experience with this?

edit: I think I'll move my question to another board not to over run Tiggers. (training section)

I started clicker training when I adopted mt first deaf dog, Scout... yes, that's right, deaf... lol I used a thumbs-up instead of a click. I really expanded my knowledge of the concept after adopting my fear aggressive dog, Oliver, and have since used the technique on all 5 of my dogs.

The thing about clicker training is you only use the clicker to teach a behaviour, after the dog is solid with the behaviour, you move to a verbal marker like "YES" and begin to reward intermittently, so you work on training the behaviour seperately, then once the behaviour is taught, you can begin to work the dogs together.

The great thing about clicker training is it does work with a not so eager to please dog... I have 2... but they do very well with clicker training... A dog always wants SOMETHING.

Try this Lange: at meal time take some really yummy, smelly treats (cut up greasy hot dogs, or roast beef, or dried liver) sit on the floor with a clicker in one hand. say absolutely NOTHING to the dog, just sit there. Toss a treat to your dog (make sure the other dogs are in a seperate room for this) Click as the dog picks up the treat, repeat 5-10 times. Then click before you treat... your dog should already be anticipating a treat at that point... repeat the click then treat 5-10 times... then just wait. click/treat some small movement, a head turn, a paw shuffle, whatever you see your dog do. it really doesn't matter. If you click a paw movement, wait for the dog to do it again, then click/treat, wait for a repeat of the paw movement, click treat... repeat the click for any movement of the paw 5-10 times, then hold off the next time, the dog should give a more exaggerated movement (pick up the paw, instead of take a step) or you could choose to only click right paw movement, whatever you decide. You should quit the session after 5-10 minutes... but you should be able to start again where you left off.

You should do all this without saying a word, and just watch your dog... the click says it all... you will be absolutely amazed by what happens.

Your dog should progress very quickly, you may get beyond what I told you in the first session, just click behaviours you like, if the dog offers something that you didn't plan on, but you really like, click that and go from there... you could very well end up with a spin from the head turn, or a paw over the nose (that did happen with Zoe the first time I ever tried Clicker training with her) Just follow the dog's lead... it's ALOT of fun!

[lange]

Thanks for all that info. I think I will try it out sooner than later. Although I'm confused..If I don't say the commands how would the dog know what I want it to do without any cues? Or is the clicker only meant to be used to condition the dog to thinking the sound is a positive thing for future commands?

I would think Wrigley would do well with the clicker, he's good using all his senses. Kuma is too much sight & touch responsive. She's horrible with voice commands but does well with hand signals so maybe the clicker will "wake" her up to paying attention to more cues? The bad thing about Kuma is she tends to focus too hard on what she wants or expects so she will not always look up for direction. I often have to wake her up by either giving her a physical tap (or bribe w/treat) & THEN tell her to look at me OR I have to physically give her butt a little push down so she can sit, which usually causes her to look at me automatically.

I think it's great that you have been able to modify the technique for deaf dogs! Who woulda' thought! I've yet to find a way of training that I couldn't take something positive away from. Clicker training will be my next doggy adventure for sure.

[Deafdogsrule]

The click is the Marker for the EXACT moment the dog is doing what you want. By conditioning a reinforcer (ie food) the dog is as eager to hear the click as it is to get the food. The click is void of emotion, and means exactly the same thing every time, unlike our voice. Dogs that seem not to be attuned to voice commands do very well with clicker training. (obviously) The point of clicker training is to completely remove punishment or corrections from training... it really works. And, by making the dog think things through, it works well to tire a dog out. It's a great way of teaching complicated movements or tricks, because you can easily mark the exact moment a dog is doing what you want.

There are 4 ways to use clicker training.

Luring- where you lure a dog into the position you want. For example, to teach a sit with luring, you would have a treat in your hand, show it to the dog then slowly raise the treat above the dog's head, then click the exact moment the dog's butt hit's the floor.

Catching the bahaviour- You catch a behaviour when a dog naturally does it. Example, to teach a down, you would watch the dog, when it lays down for a nap, click the instant the elbows hit the ground.

Shaping- You click small movements that work towards the goal you want. Example Shake a Paw. You would have your dog in a sit in front of you, then wait, if the dog shift's it's weight, click, repeat that click several times, then stop clicking that shift in weight, wait for the dog to think it through, it will probably shift it's weight back and forth, until finally it gets frusterated (why the heck isn't this working anymore) and will offer a more exaggerated movement, like a paw lift. click that repeatedly then stop again... next time the dog will be quicker to offer the paw... maybe he'll lift it right up, so you click that, then put your hand near the dog's foot, click when the dog accidentally touches your hand, then finally click for the dog putting his paw right in your palm (sounds like a slow process, but it usually happens in 5 minutes or so

Free-Shaping- Where you have no specific goal in mind, but you wait for an offered behaviour and see where it goes from there. This can be alot of fun. and a really good workout for a dog. example 101 things to do with a box. Put a box on the floor, wait for the dog to look at it, click that, then maybe the dog'll touch it with his nose, or paw, or whatever, click anything you want, and see what the dog does next... I tried this with Oliver, and by the end of 15 minutes he was sitting in the box! LOL

As to your question about how you get the dog to understand what you want without your voice. In normal dog training, you would lure or otherwise show the dog what you want, then add in the command. well Clicker training is exactly the same. When I did the exercise I explained to you with Zoe, I ended up with Zoe putting her paw over her nose, after she was doing that reliably (they will repeat the behaviour as long as they're getting clicked for it), I began saying "shy" before she did the trick. then after some repititon, I began only clicking if she did it after I asked. After she was reliably doing "shy" on command, I moved to a voice marker "Yes" and began to treat intermittenly, sometimes she got only a scratch, or a "good girl!" and sometimes a treat. Now, when asked: "Zoe, are you Shy?" she immediately puts her paw over her nose, whether or not I have a treat

[lange]

Thanks! I understand it now I can see why they might be more focused with this way of training especially with a dog who might get bored & lose concentration easily.

I'm going to pick up one of the books you mentioned. I seen your youtube upload on another post. Wow yOu did fantastic work & it was one of the dogs that's deaf.. Amazing!! If I could get Kuma to give me 1/10th of that focus (with other people around!!) I'd be on cloud nine.
Thanks again for all the helpful information & tips. I love reading the examples you did. You can tell you have fun with it. I'll let you know how it goes in a few weeks.

[Deafdogsrule]

Originally Posted by lange

Thanks! I understand it now I can see why they might be more focused with this way of training especially with a dog who might get bored & lose concentration easily.

I'm going to pick up one of the books you mentioned. I seen your youtube upload on another post. Wow yOu did fantastic work & it was one of the dogs that's deaf.. Amazing!! If I could get Kuma to give me 1/10th of that focus (with other people around!!) I'd be on cloud nine.
Thanks again for all the helpful information & tips. I love reading the examples you did. You can tell you have fun with it. I'll let you know how it goes in a few weeks.

Yes, Scout is utterly brilliant! She was the most amazingly easy dog to train... especially considering I thought I was getting a challenge to my dog training skills! LOL

Here's a video of Mouse (deaf and vi Dachshund), just after I got her. I didn't realize that her sight was bad yet, and was still using a thumb's up as a "clicker" I now use a little LED click light for her too, as she responds better to that. My hearing dog is in this one too, he is such a ham! He just adores making me laugh at him!

YouTube - Mouse and Oliver working for their breakfast

[lange]

I'm always impressed when one dog waits patiently while you train another one. I'm a newbie@ owning multiple dogs at a time so it all impresses me. lol But seriously inspiring work. I've read you say deaf dogs are easier to work with..on the one hand, it sounds crazy but then seeing what you've done & this video makes one wonder!! With that in mind was Oliver harder to train? LOL BTW That photo at the end is too adorable! And I always LOVE hearing people's accents, especially those you know or are getting to know. It always make me smile!! Although I only caught it twice or so.